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We don't talk about the BIG sins.. the REALLY BIG


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Originally Posted By: Redwood
Death is death Gerry.

A person goes to bed and does not wake up. Another

dies over a period of one painful year.

Same death?

Gerry

Gerry -

You seem to split hairs and apply human reasoning to an Abba-principle.

What about the beloved parents who earnestly seek after Jesus all their lives and die dreadfully lingering deaths of cancer? You can't apply the method of the first death to the final punishment and eradication of sin.

Look at the disciples. None of them could be accused of meriting the form their first death took. Well, except for John.

You are trying to compare apples to oranges and it's not working... in fact it's buying into the obedience through fear mindset.

A heart where He alone has first place.

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Splitting hairs? My dear, we are talking about God's justice! I am not talking about the suffering we all go through in this present life, which can be rather capricious. What I am talking about is punishment for crimes done.

Do you think that someone who kills one person should get exactly the SAME punishment as a serial rapist/killer who has 26 victims under his belt? Or someone who has been responsible for the suffering of millions?

Gerry

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We are all dying some slower than others but that is life.

We have all been given the gift of life. Are our lives the SAME?

Gerry

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Gerry -

Human justice is always a justice of degrees. Abba's justice is absolute.

I trust Him in His Omniscience and Mercy. I can say this, over the last two years, I have had occasion to experience the United States legal system.

Without going into detail, the punishment that was mete out should have been much greater, and without Abba's direct intervention, would have been catastrophic and merited, according to human justice.

In His Mercy, Abba offered and provided passover mercy for the person involved, and over the loud objections of the judge the prosecutor and defense attorney prevailed in a more merciful punishment.

It is a clear example that His justice is not as our justice, and it is not the first time this has been made plain through walking it out over a long period of time.

Whatever Abba chooses to mete out to those in the final punishment and destruction of sin, ie: the second death, I will trust Him that it will be absolute and merciful.

To compare punishments and degrees of justice here, on this earth, for the ephemeral doings of mass murderers, mass/serial rapists, or those who kill only one, is pointless and splitting hairs. To ascribe our degrees of justice to an Absolute and Absolutely Merciful Being only buys into and propagates a mindset of obedience through fear, rather than obedience through love.

The mindset of obedience through fear rather than love is precisely the "crime" of which the Adversary has accused Abba down through all the ages. And it is FALSE! It is inconsistent with Abba's character as revealed throughout the pages of the Bible and His actions and interventions in my life.

A heart where He alone has first place.

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Do you think that someone who kills one person should get exactly the SAME punishment as a serial rapist/killer who has 26 victims under his belt? Or someone who has been responsible for the suffering of millions?

This is a good question.

The wonderful thing about God is that He does not place one person above another based on your personal behavior. He looks at all of us as equal sinners in need of a Saviour. When we as Christians are judged ... we are judged by the works of our Saviour not our works. My works are buried in the depths of the sea. The robe of righteousness is placed over me and I am "viewed" as perfect. I then have the same perfect righteousness as that of the most vicious murderer ever who has likewise accepted the same Robe.

All unforgiven sinners will get death and all those under Christ's perfection through His sacrifice will receive life eternal.

Same punishment for the wicked and same reward for the righteous in Christ. That will be the beauty of Heaven. No more class wars.

May we be one so that the world may be won.
Christian from the cradle to the grave
I believe in Hematology.
 

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This is something that might only mean something to those who trust Mrs. White's work, but it was what I was referring to:

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The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.

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I thought someone might have mentioned that 'small' sins often lead to 'big' sins.

I have also found, over the years, people who kill others, tend to lie when asked if they killed someone.

People seem to move up the chain, and one sin opens the door for bigger ones..

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When the Bible says the wages of sin is death, it is not talking about deeds and actions, it is talking about the corruption that is at the core of our being, our innate sinfulness. This is what condemns us to death, regardless of what we do or refrain from doing. Even if we are diligent to make sure that each and every wicked deed or thought is confessed to God and made right with our fellow men, if we do not turn over our corrupt, sinful hearts to be remade in God's image, we will be lost. Because sin (our corrupt nature) cannot inherit eternal life.

Catherine

God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever. Psalm 73:26.

"To be a Christian means to forgive the inexcusable, because God has forgiven the inexcusable in you." -- C. S. Lewis

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Sin is Sin.

What does this mean????

When you are defining a term, you need not use the same term or it's derivatives to define it...as it is meaningless...

We have talked about results of sin...namely death...wages are also a consequence [ or a "result of.."] and the ABSOLUTE consequence of sin is death.....big or small sins...doesn't matter. And death can be slow or quick, as Gail has pointed out in the arguement of the fires mentioned in Malachi...

But I also think that sin is also looked upon in degrees, as many other have pointed out...Even Jesus said that some sins were 'better' than others...

So, I have a hard time believing that 'sin is sin'...as I tend to think that it is more of a writing convenience than a thoughtful idea...

Therefore, I conclude that sin IS NOT sin... scared

Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.

 

George Bernard Shaw

 

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Because sin (our corrupt nature) cannot inherit eternal life.

Our lives will always remain sinful until Jesus comes. This is why we have to have Jesus and HIS sinless life stand in the place of our life. We do this by accepting HIS Robe of Righteousness to cover up our sinful life.

May we be one so that the world may be won.
Christian from the cradle to the grave
I believe in Hematology.
 

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Our pastor once preached a sermon about what sin really is. There are 3 Hebrew words, each with a different meaning, that are all translated "sin" in English. Sometimes one or another is also translated "iniquity" or "transgression." When we talk about sin as being a particular type of deed, we are really talking about transgression. Our transgressions aren't really the problem, only the symptom.

Just as with physical disease, if you treat only the symptoms, the underlying disease remains and will progress. If we concern ourselves with ranking transgressions on a scale from bad to worse, and trying to keep our score down, we are missing the underlying disease, which will continue to progress. In this respect, we are all in the same boat, no matter which transgressions we are each partial to. Not one of us can pat ourselves on the back and say, "I'm not perfect, but at least I don't..." because it doesn't matter.

We need to stop focusing on judging which "sins" (transgressions) are supposedly worst, and instead focus on turning our corrupt natures over to God, Who has promised to give us a new nature, made in His image. Then the outward acts, as well as the inward thoughts, will be taken care of. Sins (transgressions) of any kind will become totally abhorrent to us.

Catherine

God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever. Psalm 73:26.

"To be a Christian means to forgive the inexcusable, because God has forgiven the inexcusable in you." -- C. S. Lewis

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Quoted from Neil D

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Therefore, I conclude that sin IS NOT sin...

It does not matter what sins you have Neil ... You are GUILTY.

"The names of those who sin and refuse to repent should not be retained on the church books" 5BC 1096 Letter 215 1902

"When the exterior is hung with ribbons, collars, and needless things, it plainly shows that the love for all this is in the heart; unless such persons are cleansed from their corruptions, they can never see God " 1T 136

"I saw that the stewards of the Lord have no duty to help those persons who persist in using tobacco, tea, and coffee" 1T 225

No matter what sin you come up with ... It might be having a collar or drinking coffee ... Sin separates us from God. And then we are not fit for heaven according to Ellen White.

So it seems that "Sin is Sin". YOU can call them big or little ... but to God and Ellen White they are just sin.

So ... How do we become fit for Heaven ????

Have our sins covered up with a Robe.

May we be one so that the world may be won.
Christian from the cradle to the grave
I believe in Hematology.
 

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Redwood, it is not enough simply to accept Jesus as our substitute (justification). We must also surrender our hearts to be changed by His Spirit (sanctification).

Catherine

God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever. Psalm 73:26.

"To be a Christian means to forgive the inexcusable, because God has forgiven the inexcusable in you." -- C. S. Lewis

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Redwood, it is not enough simply to accept Jesus as our substitute (justification). We must also surrender our hearts to be changed by His Spirit (sanctification).

Catherine ... Sanctification is done when Jesus comes and we see His face. "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be; but we know that, when He shall appear we shall be like him; for we shall see Him as He is" 1 John 3:2

"Christs character stands in the place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned" "For His sake you are accounted righteous" STC 62

"I will be your representative in heaven. The Father beholds not your faulty character but He sees you as clothed in My perfection" DA 367

What kind of characters will be ours when we go to heaven? Faulty and Sinful is the answer. But our Faulty and Sinful Characters will be COVERED Clothed in HIS perfection. So ... the Father will not see out sinful Characters but will only see the Perfect Character of Jesus.

"This covering, the robe of His own righteousness, Christ will put upon every repenting, believing soul" COL 311

This robe is not placed on those who are sanctified NO. It is placed upon sinful and faulty believers who have FAITH in God to do this.

The Sanctification happens when we see His face at the Second Coming. No works of sanctification will merit us His Robe.

May we be one so that the world may be won.
Christian from the cradle to the grave
I believe in Hematology.
 

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It does not matter what sins you have Neil ... You are GUILTY.

You are missing my point totally....

I have no problem with the concept of being guilty of sin...

I DO have a problem when someone defines sin as sin....

YOU said sin is sin.....

I asked what that mean? I haven't gotten a reply to what is meant by that sentence...Or is that what you were replying to ....that sin is sin is also guilt...

Well, i don't agree with that sentiment either...Sin is not the same thing as guilt....Sin does cause guilt...but sometimes sin does NOT cause guilt...for example, Sin blights our world. It's not guilt that blights our world...

So, come on, Red...don't hash over what YOUR soapbox is all about...Explain the soapbox...What do you mean by-

Sin is sin.

Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.

 

George Bernard Shaw

 

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Neil D ... I will not participate in YOUR soapbox. I will let YOU do that. And so far ... you have done just fine.

May we be one so that the world may be won.
Christian from the cradle to the grave
I believe in Hematology.
 

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I DO have a problem when someone defines sin as sin....

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I conclude that sin IS NOT sin...

Try a little Ellen White.

“Now he has another work to do, as God's minister, to vindicate His honor before the people, and let them see that sin is sin, and righteousness is righteousness.” 3T301

“But sin is sin, whether committed by the possessor of millions or by the beggar in the streets.” 4 T 311

“Sin is sin; righteousness is righteousness.” 4T 517

“He is a jealous God, and will not look upon sin now with any more allowance than He did among ancient Israel. Sin is sin.” TSB 247

“Sin is sin. The Lord Jesus Christ calls upon the human agencies for whom he has given his life to come to him in humility and contrition. His blood will cleanse them from all sin and every glossed-over iniquity”. SpTA12 4.1

“Sin is sin, whether practiced by ministers, teachers, medical missionaries, or other workers in the Lord's service.” 16MR 1.3

May we be one so that the world may be won.
Christian from the cradle to the grave
I believe in Hematology.
 

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Not a soapbox, on my part....It's clarification...

And I know what EGW means by "sin is sin"....

My question is

What do YOU mean by it?

Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.

 

George Bernard Shaw

 

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I DO have a problem when someone defines sin as sin....

Does this include Ellen White since she used these terms just like I did?

May we be one so that the world may be won.
Christian from the cradle to the grave
I believe in Hematology.
 

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I conclude that sin IS NOT sin...

Since you seem to contradict Ellen White here ... perhaps you could help better explain YOUR belief.

May we be one so that the world may be won.
Christian from the cradle to the grave
I believe in Hematology.
 

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I DO have a problem when someone defines sin as sin....

Does this include Ellen White since she used these terms just like I did?

As I have said before, I understand what EGW means by it...I am not sure what YOU mean by it...I am more interested in what you have to say, anyways, than what EGW has to say...Not that what she says is not important, but rather what YOU have to say IS important...because what YOU say NOW is more important than what somone said 100 years ago...

As someone has pointed out in another forum and another thread, with 9000+ posts to my credit, I think I can safely say that what EGW has said and what the user has quoted is often two very different thoughts.

Please forgive my next paragraph, as I have been praying about this and wondering how to present this without sounding angry or acussitory,....But it seems that you have misquoted me and taken my words out of context. It seems to be most disingenous of you to do so. My sentence of "sin is not sin" was placed in the context of Jesus words showing a different weight/judgement on wrongdoing...And to be just a bit contentious, my Jesus trumps your use of EGW anytime, bigtime.

So please explain what you meant by saying that "Sin is sin."

Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.

 

George Bernard Shaw

 

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my Jesus trumps your use of EGW anytime, bigtime.

Neil D. ... You are entitled to have your opinion. I will not argue with you. I think it is healthy to have a variety of opinions. I would not propose to have the ONLY truth. I have my interpretation of scripture and Ellen White.You have yours. You say that Jesus trumps Ellen White and that is fine also. I will not argue with that idea at all. Ellen White stated this herself.

I feel the most important message that we can preach as Christians is Tolerance. And so I will practice what I preach and be tolerant of your personal belief and interpretation of Ellen White vs, Scripture.

May we be one so that the world may be won.
Christian from the cradle to the grave
I believe in Hematology.
 

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You are entitled to have your opinion. I will not argue with you.

I am not attempting to argue with you...rather I just want clarification of what YOU mean by "sin is sin"...

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I would not propose to have the ONLY truth.

Of course not...Never suggested that you did...only suggested that what you had to say was important enough to be said....by YOU and not EGW...

Instead, you have dodged and avoided what you mean when questioned...You have referenced EGW...and what you have shown is something that ALL adventists do...hide themselves in EGW and not stand on thier own feet. We don't have an opinion, but EGW does!!! I would like to say very respectfully, " So what???"! She ain't here, she's dead and hasn't heard a word of what we have said. What do you call a person who let's someone else do thier thinking for them? stars What types of personallity is displayed when that happens? Is it negitive or positive?

No wonder Jesus hasn't come back to earth to pick up His own...He made only one EGW, not 8,000,000 of them.... :otb

Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.

 

George Bernard Shaw

 

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You are entitled to have your opinion. I will not argue with you.

I am not attempting to argue with you...rather I just want clarification of what YOU mean by "sin is sin"...

Quote:
I would not propose to have the ONLY truth.

Of course not...Never suggested that you did...only suggested that what you had to say was important enough to be said....by YOU and not EGW...

Instead, you have dodged and avoided what you mean when questioned...You have referenced EGW...and what you have shown is something that ALL adventists do...hide themselves in EGW and not stand on thier own feet. We don't have an opinion, but EGW does!!! I would like to say very respectfully, " So what???"! She ain't here, she's dead and hasn't heard a word of what we have said. What do you call a person who let's someone else do thier thinking for them? What types of personallity is displayed when that happens? Is it negitive or positive?

No wonder Jesus hasn't come back to earth to pick up His own...He made only one EGW, not 8,000,000 of them....

Neil D you have made some very good points that I agree with.In fact ... I don't see anything that you have said that I would disagree with. If we as a church can't stand on the Bible and the Bible alone ... then we are just a Cult.

May we be one so that the world may be won.
Christian from the cradle to the grave
I believe in Hematology.
 

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Let’s review EGW’s statement, again:

-BC- SC

-TI- Steps to Christ

-CN- 3

-CT- Repentance

-PR- 01

-PG- 29

Paul says that as "touching the righteousness which is in the law"—as far as outward acts were concernedhe was "blameless" (Philippians 3:6); but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned, he saw himself a sinner. Judged by the letter of the law as men apply it to the outward life, he had abstained from sin; but when he looked into the depths of its holy precepts, and saw himself as God saw him, he bowed in humiliation and confessed his guilt.

He [Paul] says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Romans 7:9. When he saw the spiritual nature of the law, sin appeared in its true hideousness, and his self-esteem [pride] was gone.

Okay, the stage (context) has been set! So far EGW has been discussing “self-esteem” in respect to one’s law performance. “Self-esteem” and “pride” - as far as EGW's writings are concerned - are one and the same. Let’s continue:

God does not regard all sins as of equal magnitude; there are degrees of guilt in His estimation, as well as in that of man; but however trifling this or that wrong act may seem in the eyes of men, no sin is small in the sight of God.”

“No sin is small in the sight of God”! In that respect “sin is sin”, but at the same time some sins (according to EGW) have a greater “magnitude” then others. So far EGW has equated self-righteousness with pride. Let’s continue:

“Man’s judgment is partial, imperfect; but God estimates all things as they really are.”

Now she gives some examples:

The drunkard is despised and is told that his sin will exclude him from heaven; while pride, selfishness, and covetousness too often go unrebuked. But these are sins that are especially offensive to God; [why?] for they are contrary to the benevolence of His character, to that unselfish love which is the very atmosphere of the unfallen universe.”

What is she saying? You who look down on the drunkard, for example, need to look at your own pride, selfishness and covetousness! So here we have a group of Christians looking down their self-righteous noses at someone in what is considered to be a “gross sin”. They are being self-righteous. Let’s continue:

“He who falls into some of the grosser sins [such as the drunkard] may feel a sense of his shame and poverty and his need of the grace of Christ; but pride [context: self-righteousness] feels no need, and so it closes the heart against Christ and the infinite blessings He came to give.

So far I believe EGW has been comparing “gross sins” such as murder, adultery, and drunkenness to those who have a self-righteous attitude. Am I correct? The context seems to support my position. Let’s continue with this in mind:

The poor publican who prayed, "God be merciful to me a sinner" (Luke 18:13), regarded himself as a very wicked man, and others looked upon him in the same light; but he felt his need, and with his burden of guilt and shame he came before God, asking for His mercy. His heart was open for the Spirit of God to do its gracious work and set him free from the power of sin.

The Pharisee's boastful, self-righteous prayer showed that his heart was closed against the influence of the Holy Spirit. Because of his distance from God, he had no sense of his own defilement, in contrast with the perfection of the divine holiness [i.e., the spirit of the law]. He felt no need, and he received nothing.

Okay, so EGW is comparing “gross sins” to the sin of self-righteousness! Yes, sin is sin, but the one sin that will keep you out of heaven is this “holier than thou” attitude. That’s the issue.

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