Whats all the fuss about?

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

I don't think anyone . . . is in any way suggesting or moving toward a position of abandoning the Sabbath.

Of course not. Nor would such a stance be effective in accomplishing satan's goals for Adventists, one of which is that they become careless about the Sabbath, so that when the great test of their faith comes, it will be so much easier to accept the mark of the beast.

Quote:

And finally, casting the Adventist equivalent of a hex ("Oh dear, they are rejecting EGW", "Well, EGW says..." "They are destroying the pillars of our faith...", ie rejecting the Sanctuary, etc, etc, etc.) is more than just an irritating adventure in missing the point. It casts a pall on any discussion that totally diverts the discussion, if not scares off rational dialog. It tends to be a conversation stopper. Quite simply it is the last resort of a weak position, IMHO. So, get off that train of thought and actually get on board the substance of what I have posted. How about engagement instead of diversion and stop using tactics that end up shutting down dialog.

Extremely strong language, and quite inappropriate for such a forum. What it looks like is that someone gave a response which you don't like. So, you are attacking both the message and the messenger. YOU have engaged in a discussion stopper, and are trying to shut out the voice of a participant. Practice what you preach.

The points John 317 have brought up are extremely important, and right on point. They certainly are not discussion stoppers, unless someone does not what to hear what he is saying and so is casting the posts in a negative light, in order to halt the presentation of those points.

And, of course, there is the possibility that what has been objected to is in fact true. It is something that needs to be reflected upon and taken seriously. In a discussion forum, each person's contribution and ideas should be respected and appreciated, including those of the person you are complaining of here, and including your ideas as well. Truth often is arrived at through the marketplace of ideas. Let's not squelch anyone who is making a serious effort to contribute, but welcome the contribution.

Dave

David ... why don't you two take your fighting to a PM. I believe that was the advice you gave to Shane and I a little back. OR does it not apply to you ???

[Tom Wetmore]

...As Clio so simply put it awhile back:

Quote:

It's amazing.... this started out with sledding on the Sabbath on church grounds... What an awesome celebration of the gift of joy, snow, health, Christian friends, and nature from Abba. What a tragedy it has come to this.

And it was in that spirit which I had hoped to enlarge upon what an awesome gift God gave to us through which to celebrate and share... to take us out of the Adventist doldrums of Sabbath don'ts... toward the way Jesus observed Sabbath... so that nobody watches the clock... comes away from true Sabbathing with the desire to cheat on the non-Sabbath days of the week by Sabbathing others even when its not even Sabbath... What a revolutionary concept!!

As for myself, Redwood, I sincerely apologizes that my earlier posts intended for purposes, good and enlightening, were apparently such heresy as to provoke such an avalanche of posts to set us straight. I therefore will simple stop (after all it is Sabbath and that is what it literally means...) and refrain from continuing with any further progressive ideas about the Sabbath. I guess some are just not ready for that... yet...

Tom

(With a very heavy sigh... : and )

[Woody]

Tom ... I am afraid that you are right. Unfortunately most here are not ready for your good suggestions. They seem to want to Sabbatize everyone who is not doing Sabbath in the way they think is best.

[Neil D]

Matthew 12:1-14

Lord of the Sabbath

At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, "Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath."

He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? I tell you that one[a] greater than the temple is here. If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent. For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, they asked him, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?"

He said to them, "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."

Then he said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.

As someone else has said, "getting a sheep out of a pit is hard work!" and not necessarily someone's view of a Sabbath afternoon activity.

And we all know that what Jesus really did on that Sabbath afternoon was NOT provide food for His disciples, 'except they went thru a grain field, eating the grain heads after they had removed the chaff...Work! for self sustanance...Another not exactly "Sabbath afternoon" activity....And please note, they were WALKING thru a grainfield....Again, not exactly lay activities....

My point here is to question Sabbath Activitys...Is the Sabbath a day of rest? Or is it a day of doing the Lord's will? And does doing the Lord's will really mean not doing anything at all? Granted, we have always taken the meaning to apply it to our lives, and mostly we take it to mean that it is a day of absolute rest, a day of inactivity, a day of church followed by studying nature or the bible or resting somewheres....

I would contend that the Sabbath is a day of active fellowship, which means that you do things to promote the delightfulness of fellowship which includes doing things with friends, like sledding down a snow covered hill, scuba diving, birdwatching, cleaning the home of the infirmed, and the sick. It is doing things that are for YOUR edification, a day of giving back to the community, a day in which you make someone else happy by being a friend...

Of course, I am sure someone will read this as a way of breaking the Sabbath code, and will find someway to squash the thinking on this subject....I am sure that EGW has hundreds of isolated, well intentioned one liners that someone is sure to bring to our attention. And of course, we all understand that what was the motivation, who was being talked to, and the circumstances that prompted these 'talks'....over 100 years ago....

[Jeannieb43]

"Pleasure" is also translated "work" or "business" /Bravus

That's exactly my understanding, also. Anything we do on Sabbath which removes us from our ordinary activities of work or business is appropriate.

Of course, this wasn't my understanding when I was a teenager. My family used to take Sabbath walks in Sligo Creek Park when we lived in Takoma Park; I recall meeting one of my school friends there one day while I was swinging on the public swings. She said, "You're not supposed to be doing pleasure on Sabbath." Never before had thought of taking a walk in the park or swinging on a swing to be doing pleasure.

I wish Lazarus you could visit our church one of these days. [Of course, this is in California....] The youth department often plans outings to the lake or the mountains right after church. As we're coming out of divine service we see the kids running back and forth to their family's cars to pick up their hiking clothes, then dashing into the restrooms and back out before we elders* have even finished visiting with other worshipers. They all take off in certain pre-planned transportation, wearing their "scruffies" for an afternoon of picnicking and hiking. On the Sabbath Day.

Then this outing gets written up on the church bulletin's announcement page the next Sabbath.

==========

*"Elders" -- older members; not necessarily church elders.

[Woody]

Quote:

I am sure that EGW has hundreds of isolated, well intentioned one liners that someone is sure to bring to our attention. And of course, we all understand that what was the motivation, who was being talked to, and the circumstances that prompted these 'talks'....over 100 years ago....

Well said Neil ... I would like to invite the E.G.White thumpers to share all those quotes from her and have them explained to us. And YES ... we could eventually become like the Jews with the Sabbatical laws.

Don't get me wrong ... I keep the Sabbath pretty conservatively. But I do believe it is an individual decision and I will not have Ellen White tell me how to do it.

I actually enjoy seeing the young people happy on Sabbath doing things that I personally would not do.

[Nan]

So? The boys were playing, enjoying life. God dissapproves of this...on any day?

Shades of the Jewish religious leaders!

Nothing needs to be said! [/quote

Should I have added the TIC sign? I thought it would have been obvious.

[Tom Wetmore]

:tu

[LifeHiscost]

In my house, there is a plaque on the wall which reads," If it pleases me to please God, I can do as I please." That's good enough for me, and releases me from a lot of confusion.

Thank you, Dottie, for that bit of wisdom that is more profound than I've heard from the ecclesiastical community in a long time. A phrase that I've been waiting to hear ever since the first time someone told me there was some doubt that the Christian could do what he/she wanted and still serve God.

"And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh..."

Ezekiel 11:19 KJV

Blessings!!

[David Koot]

Practice what you preach.

I am. Once again, from what I posted:

"In a discussion forum, each person's contribution and ideas should be respected and appreciated, including those of the person you are complaining of here, and including your ideas as well. Truth often is arrived at through the marketplace of ideas. Let's not squelch anyone who is making a serious effort to contribute, but welcome the contribution."

Notice that I included your ideas as well. That is in contrast to what you did. You wanted to silence a contributor whose posts you didnt like. That is not what I have done, but it is what you have done.

It is very appropriate on a thread like this, for someone to bring up what either the Bible or the Spirit of Prophecy. Not only is it appropriate, but I would say it is important. You may disagree about its importance, but it certainly is appropriate. Neither you nor I have the right to attempt to control a thread. Live and let live, as one would expect from a 'latitudinarian.'

Dave

[LifeHiscost]

Thou shalt not enjoy the sabbath day. Thou must sit and have upon thine face a look of sadnes and un happiness. Neither shall thow hit a ball around, pick a rock and throw into a stream. Let thine hand get near the ball and it shall wither, for it is written, litle children or 'ol people' shall not enjoy the sabbath. Futher more.........

:

I would like to lodge a public protest for just as I was about to call in to have someone with authority from the dress code police (out of Iraq, I hear) somebody else found it necessary to steal my thunder in just how best to control everybody else's behavior and ruined the perfect world. I guess we will just have to let Jesus determine what is best for us. S000ooo!! Let's let the Word speak for Him. Any negatives??? Well, sort of tongue in cheek.

"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind" Romans 14:5 KJV

Blessings!!

[David Koot]

Thou shalt not enjoy the sabbath day. Thou must sit and have upon thine face a look of sadnes and un happiness.

No, that is not the Biblical model. The Biblical model is for the Sabbath to be a day of unselfish ministry, and a day of getting close to God. Isaiah chapter 58 is a chapter that speaks especially to Sabbath keepers. God's message to Sabbath keepers there is about how he wants us to keep His Sabbath. Not in doing our own pleasure, or keeping to ourselves, or spending it in meetings or fellowshipping with the ninety-and-nine, but to give our time and our talents and ourselves to others in unselfish ministry, on His Sabbath. Such activities are pleasant and in fact happy and joyous. And young people, in my experience, are interested in participating in stuff like that. With gentle guidance, they respond very positively and in fact look forward to being a blessing to others on God's Sabbath.

Dave

[LifeHiscost]

rationalizing

Rational: having reason or understanding; relating to, based on, or agreeable to reason; reasonable.

Rationalism: reliance on reason as the basis for establishment of religious truth.

A theory that reason is in itself a source of knowledge superior to and independent of sense perceptions.

Would that all had a measure of the ability to be rational human beings. However our rationale will be correct or incorrect depending upon our source of information.

"Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the LORD...." Isaiah 1:18 NKJV

"I know, O LORD, that a man's way is not in himself, Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps." Jeremiah 10:23 NASB

" The mind of man plans his way,But the LORD directs his steps." Proverbs 16:9 NASB

"...the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come." John 16:13 NASB

"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14 NKJV

Regards!!

[David Koot]

'Pleasure' the word, it has been pointed out that in ancient languages has other meanings, such as work, or something for profit.

While someone did wonder about that, the language, and lexical aids, do not bear that out. The word does indeed refer to 'pleasure' in contradistinction to 'work' which is a different word. Or, if you disagree, then pls do cite credible lexical authorities. Brown Driver Briggs would do, Nidotte would do, of course, above all, Koehler-Baumgartner. Can you provide cites in any of those? I have looked in two of the three, and can verify what I am referring to. If you like, I will look up the page references so you can check them out on your own. I should add that in addition to checking those secondary sources, I have done my own research, studying the usage pattern and semantic range of the word in the OT. I would be glad to compare notes with you, if you like.

[LifeHiscost]

I will not have Ellen White tell me how to do it.

To tell you the truth, Redwood, I hold the same position for anyone who has no authority to speak for God, whether speaking about the Sabbath or any other important moral consideration. Where we probably differ is that I believe God kind enough and thoughtful enough to give me extra protection in very confusing times, when the very Word of God is questioned as to its' veracity.

"Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper." 2 Chronicles 20:20 KJV

Regards!!

[LifeHiscost]

Eve and Adam chose reason over faith and submission to the Creator. At the end, most of the world will also choose human reason over obedience to God's commandments.

Enlightened human reason is accepting obedience to God as a good reason. Keeping God's counsels is reasonable for His purposes whether we are able to see the reasonableness or not.

But then I knew you believed that anyway.

"Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the LORD, “ Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They shall be as wool." Isaiah 1:18 NKJV

Regards!!

[lazarus]

I wish Lazarus you could visit our church one of these days.

I wouldn't mind taking the trip for a vacation but perhaps your making certain assumptions there!

[lazarus]

I can understand why peope would be disturbed and think the activity was in approppriate. My main concern is about the how the elder handled it. In the end we had a contructive discussion with the teens.

In our disputes about Sabbath activities things can get distorted and out of whack. We can end up finger pointing when there need not be any.

Here's some stuff I do/dont do!

I don't go to restaurants

I don't buy stuff! unless its an emergency.

I sort out my Sabbath clothes on Friday.

I wouldn't cook a full meal: unless its an emergency

I do heat stuff up, I do boil stuff.

I work!

I don't work on my house.

I don't play ball games

I bounce balls

I don't send e-mails

I do check my e-mail

I do visit the sick, sing at nursing homes

I do help my neigbour

I do ride my bike

I do swim

I do Hike

I watch religious programing

I crack jokes

I wouldn't go to a comedy club

I post on religious topics

I don't post on secular topics.

Sabbath is more than this? Right!

BTW this did not occur on the front lawn on the church. It occurred in a spot that was pretty much hidden from public view. I don't know where that came from!

[David Koot]

BTW this did not occur on the front lawn on the church. It occurred in a spot that was pretty much hidden from public view. I don't know where that came from!

Hi Laz, the 'front lawn' location was what Nan was referring to in what she observed--the kids playing cricket on the front lawn of the church, over in Oz.

Dave

[Neil D]

Quote:

Here's some stuff I do/dont do!

Gee, Lazarus....I didn't know that you were so ....conservative!

[lazarus]

my bad! sorry

[lazarus]

Gee, Lazarus....I didn't know that you were so ....conservative!

I've even been known to quote EGW in a sermon.

[David Koot]

my bad! sorry

Not a problem! :)

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Neil D

Gee, Lazarus....I didn't know that you were so ....conservative!

I've even been known to quote EGW in a sermon.

Ooooh mmmyyy Gooodneesssss.... You are ruining my picture of you!

We've got to get you liberalized!

[lazarus]

Originally Posted By: lazarus

I've even been known to quote EGW in a sermon.

[/quote']

Ooooh mmmyyy Gooodneesssss.... You are ruining my picture of you!

We've got to get you liberalized!

Hey, I've got folks in my church who don't ride bikes on Sabbath! and I've got people in my church who don't read their Bibles. I've got wide spectrum of people to Pastor.

No, No,...... I'm really a liberal honest (panicking) ...... I don't wear a tie when I preach! I've been know to wear jeans too.......on a Sabbath morning when preaching!