Whats all the fuss about?

[John317]

I would be willing to make a wager ....

I will be that far more kids are turning AWAY from Adventism because of legalistic Sabbath keeping than are drawn because of legalistic Sabbath keeping.

And then what is the message that we are sending them?

There is, of course, no such thing as legalistic keeping of the Sabbath. If it is legalistic, it is not really a keeping of the Sabbath in the Biblical sense which God had in mind when He made it. Legalistic observance of the Sabbath is all anybody can possibly do when he or she is not truly converted and living in a faith-based relationship with Christ. So instead of insisting that others observe rules and regulations "just so," we as a church and as individual believers should be more concerned about helping and encouraging others to experience conversion and a genuine personal relationship with Christ. (I am not saying we shouldn't discuss what God's law says; that's very important to do; but our emphasis has to be on conversion to, and relationship with, Jesus Christ.)

[John317]

We can figure out, to the nth degree of the legalistic requirement of the Sabbath....but if we do so at the expense of appearing legalistic, and thus offending the human, what good is our system of justice?

But in our day and in our culture there seems to me too much being made of not offending the human, so much so that laws are being passed making it illegal to offend people by preaching Bible truth. We have to tell the truth in love, but we have to tell it even if some people might take offense or get angry. The world will never love Christ or the preaching of the truth. In fact, the real gospel when it is preached under the influence of the latter rain will make most of the people in the world angry and will eventually result in great persecution. If the world hated Christ, it will hate people when they truly see Christ in them. It is only a watered down gospel that becomes popular because it tells people what they want to hear, which is that they can be saved in their sins rather than from their sins.

[David Koot]

as syntax dictates,

[Robert]

In fact, the real gospel when it is preached under the influence of the latter rain will make most of the people in the world angry and will eventually result in great persecution.

Why? The gospel takes the pride of man - his glory - and places it in the dust! The gospel tells mankind that he can't save himself - that he is totally bankrupt of any goodness or that outside Christ everything man does is polluted with self-interests.

Here, try this test - only make sure the person is smaller than you:

Go up to someone and say, "I have news for you!" And he/she will say, "what's that?" And you reply, "from head to foot you are completely rotten - there's nothing good in you." You better run because you have just insulted that person.

That's what the gospel does to the self-righteous. Remember that mankind is by NATURE legalistic. Oh sure once in a while he/she makes little mistakes, but overall he/she is good and therefore deserving of heaven. And you wonder why Jesus isn't widely accepted?

Robert

[John317]

What is so loving that we can not see children having fun on the Sabbath? What is so loving as to allow our children to grow up in the nurture of the Lord? Ok, they don't know everything....but they know how to play together, they know how to enjoy one another in a loving way. They don't make life complicated... I would venture to say that kids having fun know how to be better christians than we adults do...

Yeah I can agree with that in general, but as someone who counsels kids, I'm not so optomistic when it comes to assuming that the majority of kids having fun are necessarily being Christians when they do it. If you let most kids "do their thing" without any kind of guidance or supervision, they will almost always eventually end up doing things you'd rather they not do.

[David Koot]

We can figure out, to the nth degree of the legalistic requirement of the Sabbath....but if we do so at the expense of appearing legalistic, and thus offending the human, what good is our system of justice?

I would say there are different aspects of the question. Firstly, of course, the core issue of what is right? What does the Bible say about how to keep the Sabbath? That is very important. Secondly, how to educate and guide people, including young people, about it. Those are two quite different considerations, both of which are important. One cannot lose sight of the first, not can one lose sight of the second. Implementing the Divine directives calls for much prayer, wisdom and for a shepherd's heart.

Dave

[David Koot]

David, some of us feel just like Billy after you have finished dissecting this passage.

Tom

You said, earlier on this thread, that the KJV was wrong, that in essence, the Adventist church has been wrong over the decades, mistranslating and misapplying the verse. That position statement called for careful consideration and evaluation.

[John317]

...Here, try this test - only make sure the person is smaller than you:

Go up to someone and say, "I have news for you!" And he/she will say, "what's that?" And you reply, "from head to foot you are completely rotten - there's nothing good in you." You better run because you have just insulted that person.

That's what the gospel does to the self-righteous. Remember that mankind is by NATURE legalistic. Oh sure once in a while he/she makes little mistakes, but overall he/she is good and therefore deserving of heaven. And you wounder why Jesus isn't widely accepted?Robert

You're right, but of course, as I'm sure you know, Jesus never used that approach, and I'm confident you don't either. He told the truth but He always did it with tears in his voice and with love. People can tell when we are telling them something because we care about them. We should never do it with a sense of joy at being able to point out their faults. If we feel that way, it's better to keep our mouths shut, or, as the case may be, our keyboard still.

[David Koot]

Yes, many trees. What of the forest?

The attempt to define a 'forest' seems to be part of human nature--the desire to order things, to create a system. However, doing so can be both speculative and subjective. When it comes to the Bible, I am extremely reticent to make the attempt. The 'forest' a student creates may not be the 'forest' God intended.

Dave

[there buster]

Quote:

Here is where I see a departure from the text: adding the word "AND." That is not in the original. And it puts a somewhat different spin on the passage. It appears to this student that you have added the word "and" in support of your construct or ideas about literary units. But it is not in the original.

Yeah, that's a leap all right.

You will never get to a meaning of any passage if you focus word-by-word, because a passage is always more than one word.

You object to my literary passage. A responsible approach would be to propose an alternative, something you repeatedly refuse to do. My 5YO grandson can say "no" repeatedly.

So, what is the literary unit? (Hint: the whole book of Isaiah is just another dodge).

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

...Here, try this test - only make sure the person is smaller than you:

Go up to someone and say, "I have news for you!" And he/she will say, "what's that?" And you reply, "from head to foot you are completely rotten - there's nothing good in you." You better run because you have just insulted that person.

That's what the gospel does to the self-righteous. Remember that mankind is by NATURE legalistic. Oh sure once in a while he/she makes little mistakes, but overall he/she is good and therefore deserving of heaven. And you wounder why Jesus isn't widely accepted?Robert

You're right, but of course, as I'm sure you know, Jesus never used that approach, and I'm confident you don't either.

Jesus did...Paul did also:

Jesus:

15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.

Paul:

11 But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished. 12 Would that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves.

3 Then Paul said to him, “God is going to strike you, you whitewashed wall! And do you sit to try me according to the Law, and in violation of the Law order me to be struck?”

Watch out for those dogs, those men who do evil, those mutilators of the flesh. 3 For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh—

[there buster]

Quote:

The attempt to define a 'forest' seems to be part of human nature--the desire to order things, to create a system.

I am forthwith cautioned in any attempt to find meaning in the Bible.

Quote:

When it comes to the Bible, I am extremely reticent to make the attempt.

And I would say, entirely successful.

[Clio]

Originally Posted By: Ed Dickerson

The first principle I would cite is Jesus statement about purpose:

Mark 2: 27Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

I would like to add an example of this principle at work, from James.

The purpose of the Sabbath is that it is for man, and on it we're not going to be doing work for our own advancement.

In James 1:27, James talks about what is pure religion (the Amplified Bible calls it "external religion and worship).

Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world. James 1:27

The Amplified Bible also indicates that the word used as visit has the implication of helping, assisting, and alleviating their troubles.

This seems to go along very well with Jesus statement that it is "lawful to do well on the Sabbath".

Just to re-emphasize..... and get this thread back on track....

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Eve and Adam chose reason over faith and submission to the Creator. At the end, most of the world will also choose human reason over obedience to God's commandments.

Enlightened human reason is accepting obedience to God as a good reason. Keeping God's counsels is reasonable for His purposes whether we are able to see the reasonableness or not.

But then I knew you believed that anyway.

You're right, but there are so many people who do not agree with this at all.

When God told Adam not to eat of a specific tree, human reason could not come up with a reason for choosing that particular tree, any more than human reason can up with a reason for God's choosing Saturday as the day we should rest on. Human reason can accept the reasonableness of resting one day a week, but why only on the seventh day? Human reason wants to argue the matter: Why not on Sunday? What is "rest"? What is "holy"? Why not Friday? What difference does it make? Is God really that particular? What is He, a legalist?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

You're right, but of course, as I'm sure you know, Jesus never used that approach, and I'm confident you don't either.

Quote:

Jesus did...Paul did also:[/quote']

I was talking about how to approach people on the street about the gospel, Robert. That is what your original remark was about:

"Here, try this test - only make sure the person is smaller than you:

Go up to someone and say, "I have news for you!" And he/she will say, "what's that?" And you reply, "from head to foot you are completely rotten - there's nothing good in you." You better run because you have just insulted that person. "

Robert, the difference is that Paul and Jesus weren't out there trying to insult people-- they were just telling the truth, but as Ellen White points out, Jesus had sadness in his voice when He told people the truth about themselves. Jesus' voice did not give anyone the impression He was enjoying telling them they were lost. It was their lostness that was breaking His heart. I think that is almost always missing when we do it, and maybe that has something to do with why more people don't listen to us.

[David Koot]

get this thread back on track....

Back on track? The original issue, as I recall, had to do with some kids playing near the church on Sabbath. The question arose, how should the situation be dealt with? Various suggestions were made. Then, the idea was proposed that it is okay to play on Sabbath. That was relevant to the issue, and was worthy of consideration. The statement was made in support of that idea, that the Bible had been translated wrong in Isa. 58:13. That, too, was worthy of consideration. It has been considered.

"On track," then, looking at the original premise of the thread, had to do with youth playing games at church on Sabbath. So far, two issues have been addressed: the core issue of whether or not it was okay to do so, and the separate issue of how it should be handled when observed.

In reading your post, it appears to this observer that you want to take the thread in another direction, perhaps a more general discussion of what is appropriate for adults to do or not do on the Sabbath?

Dave

[David Koot]

You will never get to a meaning of any passage if you focus word-by-word, because a passage is always more than one word.

[Robert]

Traditional Adventism creates too many dos and don’ts concerning the Sabbath. Try to make the day different, that's all.

Robert

[Woody]

The Sabbath is just one more topic for Legalists to make their list of rules to impose upon others. I don't mind if they want their own personal list of rules. Just don't impose your pious works of legalism on others. This is the very reason why Jesus rejected having a list of specific rules for Sabbath.

[Tom Wetmore]

...Just to re-emphasize..... and get this thread back on track....

Yes, Clio, thanks! You are very much on the right track. (And have been all along I must say.) This is the direction some of us have been trying to keep the topic moving. It is keeping it on track, contrary to the efforts and opinions of some.

Thanks.

Tom

[Clio]

I'd like to point out in the Pentateuch, when the Sabbath was first instituted, that there doesn't seem to be an emphasis on it being a day of "gathered together" worship.

When the Sabbath is instituted, it is clearly a day of rest from the daily activities in which the COI engaged during their wanderings. There was a focus on family togetherness, fellowship, and a recovery from the arduous activities of the week.

Through out the books of the Pentateuch there are numerous instructions on "how" to worship... but none is given for the Sabbath day, except in Exodus 16.

"Do they not realize that I have given them the seventh day, the Sabbath, as a day of rest? That is why I give you twice as much food on the sixth day, so there will be enough for two days. On the Sabbath day you must stay in your places. Do not pick up food from the ground on that day." 30 So the people rested on the seventh day. Exodus 16:29-30.

Arguably, this could mean they only stayed in their tents and did not pick up food, but it's interesting with so much emphasis placed on the concepts and forms of worship that the only explicit instructions given for Sabbath is to rest.

Perhaps it would behoove us to take a look at what constitutes "rest" in all it's forms... not just extra naps?

[Tom Wetmore]

...Again, we need to ponder this text a bit more....

He has showed you, O man, what is good.

And what does the LORD require of you?

To act justly and to love mercy

and to walk humbly with your God.

And the same to you, Neil! Thanks for also helping to get us back on track. This really helps answer the obvious follow up question to Jesus command, "It is lawful (the right thing to do) to do good on the Sabbath." One should ask, "So what is good?" to which Jesus reply is "To act justly, to love mercy and to walk humbly with God."... Which should remind us of what he also said through the prophet Isaiah.

Tom

[John317]

How are we to understand Jeremiah 17: 19-27 where, because of failure to "keep the Sabbath day holy," God threatens to "kindle a fire in Jerusalem's gates" "which shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem and shall not be quenched"?

Daniel and most of the rest of Judah were taken into captivity and moved to Babylon because of their failure to keep the Sabbath, according to a comparison of 2 Chron. 7: 19, 20; 2 Chron. 36: 20, 21 and Daniel 1: 1, 2; 9: 3-15. God had even sent many prophets to the people to bring them back to Him, and back to true Sabbath keeping (which can only be done, really, by a holy people), but the record is that they only rebelled further and rejected and killed the prophets. (Jer. 14: 13-16; 23: 21-40; 29: 8-19, etc.)

""...They [those who accepted the words of false prophets] did not heed my words, says the Lord, which I persistently sent to you by my servants the prophets, but you would not listen, says the Lord" (Jer. 29: 19).

What lessons, if any, should we learn from those events?

[David Koot]

I'd like to point out in the Pentateuch, when the Sabbath was first instituted, that there doesn't seem to be an emphasis on it being a day of "gathered together" worship.

[there buster]

Quote:

I have done so. Nothing complicated about it. God lists a series of concerns in a discourse covering several chapters.

Please be specific. What is the beginning and end of the passage, and what are its major divisions?