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I have a sister who has had a very rough life. For the majority of that time she has not been involved with any church. Over a period of years, she had gotten her life on top of some of the issues that she has faced. She has come to terms with the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Probably, in the past six years, she has attended a SDA Sabbath service either two (2) or three (3) times. She has a female friend who also has had a rough life, which in some ways, not others, has been like that of my sister. My sister has successfully supported and encouraged her friend to get of top of the issues that she faced. Yesterday, this friend telephoned my sister and made the following request: I believe that I need to begin attending the Seventh-day Adventist Church, take Bible studies and join it. But, I do not want to go alone. You understand me and have been with me in my struggles. Would you take me to a local SDA church and attend with me? My sister's response: Of course I will go with you. There are three (3) local SDA congregation near-by. Let us visit them all and meet their pastors. Let us see which one you feel most comfortable with and I will be able to go with you next week. NOTE: There is another important factor involved in this. My sister lives on a low income level. Her earned income comes from a part-time job that supplies clinical services to people who need them. A big part of these services are provided on Saturday in one person's home. Recently she was notified that the person she cares for was moving this week to a permanent care facility and last Saturday was her last day of work for that person. She has now lost a big part of her income. But, she is now able to attend church with her friend. My favorite verse in scripture:

Paul Petersen & Robert McIver, BIBLICAL & THEOLOGICAL STUDIES ON THE TRINITY. Avondale Academic Press, 2014, 234 pages. YOu may purchase this book from: http://atfpress.com/biblical-and-theological-studies-on-the-trinity.html for $34.95. Amazon also carries the book, but at a higher price.

From what has the believer been saved? Or is being saved? I doubt there is any such thing as instant sanctification since in my own life I see God has to deal with either my stubbornness, or ignorance. Sometimes sin just seems justified, certain feelings indulged, justified. Other times I really had no idea it was sin...peeling that onion, layer after layer. I also think we probably make this whole sin thing far more complicated than it really is. I struggled in a certain area for decades, begged God, beat myself up as I have been taught by some poor churchies, blah, blah....then I just concentrated on "For it is God Who works in you both to will and to do...". When I saw myself doing what I wished to give up and the temptation would come to give up, feel hopeless, despair, all that good stuff, or try in some way even tho I had never succeeded before, I would put everything out of my mind and concentrate on that verse, and a couple of others. Then one day my "will" had been worked enough by God, that He was now able to empower me to do. Over time thoughts had come to me that I could accept or reject and as I accepted them, they transformed my mind, my thinking. And I was now empowered and found myself no longer doing it. The same has been becoming true in some other areas, ways of dealing with certain issues...Am I sinless? You know what they say: "A watched pot never boils". LOL I don't need to worry about it. I just need to look to Jesus, and not to how bad or hopeless I may be. He has been pretty good at letting me know when and what I need to change. I either accept or reject. But worrying one way or another isn't, hasn't, done me a bit of good in my 63 years. Works pretty good. Self- and other- condemnation will never change or transform anyone. Neither will hopelessness, or navel gazing, or listening to what man considers sin, or whatever else we do. Only looking to Jesus and filling my mind with His word. Oh, and I did have some support from some good people in this journey also.

The condemnation for sin or sin itself? If the latter, are you sinless?

The Searcher: A. G. Daniels and Mrs. White were expecting it to just take a short time so that they could ordain that specific woman. She has now been long dead. It's been about 100 years and in the last few decades we have had archaeological discoveries that shows that the Bible supports Women's Ordination. When does it move from giving a little bit of time to teach the church because it's not ready and when the church is just dragging it's feet?

Well I am gald you straightened me out on that. I like the Matthew 13 account as it is followed by the good seed and tares parable. OOH RAH (me Army Aircorp Vietnam).

And God responded and said "Stephen who?"

Psalms37: Woody did not mention 501C. Woody did not say anything related to the government in his statement. What he did do is to reference internal documents that exist . In your reaction to what Woody said, I will suggest that you have gone well beyond what he said and placed you own stuff into his statement. Further, your statement reflects a major misunderstand of the law in the United States; 1) The Church does not have to obey anti-discrimination statutes because of incorporation. The Church is simply required to obey applicable law because it is the applicable statute and not due to incorporation. Anti-discrimination statutes apply according to how the statute was written. In any case they are not limited to what has been incorporated. There are businesses that have to abide by whose statutes that are not incorporated. 2) There is no law, in the United States that requires a Church to abide by anti-discrimination statutes, as it pertains to its clergy. Any such law could quickly be found to be in violation of the 1st Amendment to the Federal Constitution.

it makes me wonder if the subjugation of women was the result of sin, and this is Adam's blaming just going on and on reechoed. Yes no one minds women serving in position of leadership in all kinds of fields today. This was not so over a hundred years ago. The struggle for women who wanted to vote, or to become scientists, and doctors, and lawyers is a part of our history. Nurses and teacher's were some of the accepted positions for women. And this was not because that was the only gifts and talents they had. The positive changes in society as in outlawing slavery, and outlawing child labor, and permitting women leadership positions are not against the will or law of God. Why do we make ado over women Spiritual laborers in positions of leadership in the church? It does puzzle me.

Quote: If one argues about order of creation, thus men are above women, consider what was created before Adam. These are ridiculous ideas to rationalize their own thinking. If you think about it, the last creature created was a woman. After God created man, he worked out all the bugs and kinks, and then He created women. Another way to look at it - woman were created out of flesh and bone (Adam's rib). They are genuine human beings. Men were created out of the dust of the earth, so they are just dirtbags.

I can't find anything for God being against WO. But I find a few minor and three major points in favor of him being FOR WO. But it's too late at night to go into details but summery: In the Old Testament men and women were required to wear a blue thread in their tassels. That blue thread has been discovered to be only limited to ordained priests in the ancient world. Thus every one men and women Hebrews were wearing the blue thread that outside of Israel only ordained priests could wear, thus indicating that the whole country was ordained. In the time of Jesus WO was a major debate among Jews. However, it was the conservatives who supported WO and the liberals who opposed it. About 100 years before Jesus, a Rabbi who had a bad marriage, but who was popular with the liberal Rabbis and Pharisees was saying that the Jews need to STOP ordaining women and needed to remove the blue thread from women's clothing. In Jesus' day, when Rabbi's taught they would sit in a chair. The laity would stand and listen to the Rabbi (and yes there were lady Rabbis) and people who were ordained disciples would sit at the Rabbi's feet. Among the liberals who were against WO the women were not to stand and listen but only men, the women were to listen while doing different tasks. The story of Mary and Martha, Martha was doing the thing that the "Good" Jewish lady who agreed that women should not be ordained was to do, while Mary was not standing but actually sitting at Jesus' feet, the position of ordination! And horribly when Martha protested Women's Ordination Jesus invited her to come and be ordained as well. In Acts and other NT books, the leader of ministry teams had their names first. There is a couple in the Bible, a ministry team of a husband and wife. In all but one place where they are referred to as husband and wife the husband's name came first and the wife's second. However 100% of the time it discusses them as a ministry team it is the wife's name first and husband's name second so that the wife was the leader of the team and her husband was her assistant pastor.

Also, if you watch the whole video instead of a freeze-frame intentionally picked and spun, you will see it is not an angry or somber expression any more than a look of someone listening with serious attention, or most likely a fairly neutral expression. That last possibility tends to be interpreted by any observer according to their own POV and preconceived idea of the person. Very likely if he had been laughing at some isolated point, some observers would have immediately assumed he was mocking Carson and not taking him seriously. Also if you watch the whole video, you will also see a nearly identical expression on the Republican leader's face sitting on the other side. Nobody is saying he was angry or fuming. And finally (Seriously - least this degenerate into an off-topic political food fight) If you listen to Obama's own remarks you will hear his gracious, positive and engaged reaction to Ben's remarks. It is also worth noting the "prophetic" observation that unfortunately the media would very quickly lose sight of the essential fact that the country's leadership from both sides came together and prayed. Even here it is quickly forgotten that it was a prayer breakfast. That should give us all a bit of hope.

Christianity makes a person a "gentleman" or a "lady." @Olger, as I watched Dr. Carson give his speech, I also noted the somber appearance of the president. It was refreshing to read that he responded quite civilly to the doctor following the speech. Politicians sometimes behave better than church people.

Obama and Carson meet briefly after the speech

Netherlands Union Conference Votes to Ordain Female Pastors July 6, 2013 On May 30th, 2013 the Executive Committee of the Netherlands Union Conference of the Seventh-day Adventist Church decided to ordain female pastors, recognising them as equal to their male colleagues. During the Union Session last year the delegates from the churches in the Netherlands charged the church leadership with the task of implementing equality between men and women in the church as soon as possible. After much discussion, and after weighing the many options, the Executive Committee has decided that the best way to implement this equality is through the equal ordination of men and women... ...it was decided that from June 1st, 2013 all ordained and commissioned pastors, regardless of gender, will be considered ordained in the Netherlands. In practice this means that Pastor Elise Happé-Heikoop (pastor of Arnhem, Nijmegen and Doetinchem) is now considered ordained, and that on September 21st Guisèle Berkel-Larmonie will be ordained together with her (male) colleague Enrico Karg... Because of the potentially delicate nature of this topic, it was decided that the communication of this decision would be delayed until July 5th, 2013. This gave the leadership enough time to properly and correctly inform the Trans-European Division. The Netherlands Union Conference has 5276 members, spread over 55 churches and 16 church plants... http://www.adventist.nl/2013/07/06/netherlands-union-conference-votes-to-ordain-female-pastors/ Some observations 1) This is an executive committee decision based on the wishes of the 2012 union session. 2) The committee action makes the past commissioning of female ministers to be their ordination moment; kind of retroactive. 3) This action calls for wisdom on the part of the world church as it responds. 4) It seems that the only way forward in unity is to have different world fields manage the ordination process based on the wishes of their constituencies; unity in diversity.

i watched it, never saw Obama fuming. sorry you spread this sort of thing.