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As mentioned several times, "Allah" is simply Arabic for "God". But when considering the Muslim understanding of God with the Christian understanding of God, there are of course differences. However, there are also differences between the SdA understanding of God and the Baptist understanding of God. Does this mean we worship different Gods? Does the SdA who believes that Jesus took on Adam's unfallen nature worship a different God than the SdA who believes that Jesus took on our fallen nature? Does the Western Christian who believes that the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and Son (the famous "Filioque" clause) worship a different God than the Eastern Orthodox who believes that the Holy Spirit only proceeds from the Father? Do five-point Calvinists who believe in limited atonement worship a different God than the Wesleyans who believe in universal atonement? At what point does our varying understandings of God depart sufficiently from common ground so that we say one worships a "different God"? This question is of course one of semantics, not substance.

my dad did all the housework ... vacuuming, laundry, dusting, mopping, making the lunches for me and my brother to take to school.... and he did the yard work... and he was a college professor and high school teacher, full-time, as well.. my mom had a full-time job, and went to church... she and my dad shared the cooking responsibilities for the household. (yes, I know this is not the *usual* way it works, but it may be more common than one might think..)

What happened to, Believe not every spirit but try the spirits? Obedience to me is not a checklist but a heart matter

Pam, you think that they should inhale helium, before speaking! I will suggest that they should inhale nitrous oxide. That would change the whole nature of the debate.

Historically women and men did not earn equal pay. A huge effort made by *gasp* feminists in the middle of the last century narrowed that gap between the sexes.

Oddly enough...I agree. There is a gap in commitment to work. In my experiences, women tend to be far more committed and work harder than men. Maybe my family and extended families are an exception to the average, but in my experience, women work generally twice as hard as the men.

when the presidential debates begin, I think all participants should inhale helium before speaking...

Revelation 22:18,19 "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book." It just seems to me that this list adds a lot to the words of the prophecy in Revelation, and takes words away (ignores) from that book of prophecy....

There will always be people as you describe. I understand that but to lay this directly on men as some selfish inconsiderate boar is pretty one sided. I do know women that are as self centered,demanding and whiny,cannot stand being around them. Most women are not that way,anymore than most men fit your description

I don't think the inspiration of the Bible is of the same inspiration as that of the Qu'ran.

There were needed changes and "feminists" did work hard to effect those changes. Those that identified as feminists then and a segment of those that do now aren't even the same species

Why, yes, yes we did. We were growing little humans! What are men growing their belly out for... ?

And maybe pigs do fly... I'm sorry, but the evidence strongly points far more strongly that those that voted did so with very little understanding of what the vote was really about, with very little advance information or even minimal study on the underlying issues about WO or women in ministry. The evidence most strongly indicates that their vote against it was driven by culture and had little if anything remotely Biblical. It has been reported that delegates from the some of the divisions most strongly opposed had no advance information on the issue given to them by their leadership. There was very strong pressure put on them to watch how their leader voted and follow his lead. Don't be fooled by the substantial volume of information regarding WO, for and against, we have here in NAD, into thinking that it is in any way a reflection of what was being circulated or taught or studied in areas that are firmly opposed. The truth is that the leadership in many areas did virtually nothing to prepare their people to address the issue. No information. None. Nada.

Thanks to their efforts, the gender gap is much smaller. Recent female grads are making 90 cents to the dollar of their male counterparts. We've come a long way, baby, but there's still a gap in pay.

I say Yes.

I was informed Saturday that Danny Shelton had been elected President of 3-ABN and that the Review would have an article on this. I read that article today on the REVIEW website. I am attempting to get the following message posted as a response to that article:

What do you base that statement on? Prior to our move to our present home I used the same handymen for many years. Their promptness,attention to detail and the professional job was well worth what they charged. It has been difficult to locate those that I can place the same amount of confidence in. Obviously you can can save a great deal of money by doing repairs yourself. That really doesn't determine the value of the expertise,time and materials of those that make their living doing repair work. My husband had a client that decided he was not worth the 4,000.00 it would cost him to paint his home. After he obtained the information of what was needed in amount of supplies,he terminated my husband to save all that money. Didn't take to long and he was back on the phone falling all over himself to apologize and beg my husband to finish the job. Even with the ability and knowledge to complete a repair,many decide that it is more beneficial to hire the work done while they spend their time doing what they are most qualified to do. I have customers that think at first my price is to high as they are able to sew themselves. Most show back up in my e-mail asking me to purchase what they are able to do themselves. Not worth their time when it could be spent doing what they do best

I agree that the NASB is perfect for Col 2 it points out that it is our debt of sin that is nailed to the cross instead of God's Law.

Well said.

Yep. I agree. There's a whole lot of one-sidedness on these forums though. It's what keeps the forums active!

If "Allah" simply means "divine One" - then I would say that my "Allah" is NOT the Muslim "Allah". Mohammed claimed that an "angel" sent by Allah, possessed him, and took him on a night journey. (I think we know who that "angel" was.) Mohammed wrote what Allah dictated. Allah ordered the subjugation of all peoples, their conversion to Islam, or their death. The Koran, dictated by Allah's messenger, says that Abraham took Ishmael up the mount to sacrifice [not Isaac], says Ishmael is the firstborn chosen son. The Koran essentially rewrote the ENTIRE Bible, reversing the characters. In the OT, all the Muslim nations are defeated by Messiah when He returns as a conqueror. The Koran reverses this, so that Israel and all Christians are defeated by the Muslim Mahdi. Jesus, who did NOT die on a cross, will come back to enforce Sharia law under the Mahdi. Islam's Antichrist is our Messiah, and our Messiah is their al-Dajjal (Great Deceiver). The al-Dajjal does miracles of healing in order to deceive. He will pretend to be the Messiah, and will deceive the people with amazing powers. He will temporarily take over the world, but will be defeated. The Korah, absolutely turns EVERYTHING from our Bible - on it's head. And consider how women are treated, in the Koran. Women are deceivers. Most of those in HELL are women. Women must be tightly controlled. Muslim men may take 4 wives, but the Prophet himself was allowed 24, including 2 child "brides". The Koran actually allows men to have sex with little boys, but prohibits adult males from acting as "women" in the sex act. Women from conquered cities are "booty" to be used as "temporary wives" of the "righteous warriors". We hear about ALL OF THIS, in the stories about ISIS.

There are other terms, rather than "it". For example, "one" might think he and she is sexist...

"Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth." (Rev. 14:1-3) From thiese verses, it appears that the 144,000 are already with Jesus either in heaven or in someplace of protection prior to the 7 last plagues descripbed in Rev. 16. "A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” (Rev. 14:9-11) These verses seem to indicate that the mark of the beast comes at the very end of time - during the 7th trumpet and right before the 7 last plagues. It appears to be a last-ditch attempt by the beast to discourage those who would worship the true God. The beast knows he has lost; and will try to drag as many as he can into the lake of fire with him.

Can you show me a verse from the Bible saying that "God is Jesus"? The phrase in Rev 1:18 "I am he which liveth and was dead" specifically refers to Jesus. It was the Son Who died on the cross, NOT the Father.

I have tried to relate your description of men to the men I know and can't think of a one. WE raised four sons along with my two nieces and two nephews.. The expectations were the same for the boys as the girls. Al of my sons can cook, two really excel. At families dinners it is not uncommon to see the men begin cleaning up and loading the dishwasher right along with the women. If they see laundry that needs to be done they all know how to find and use the washing machine. None of the wives work outside the home and all of my sons work far more than the 40 hours a week so the wives do far more of the housework and errands and they should as that is their job as long as they are not working outside the home.

"Allah" is not the invention neither the property of radical Islam. "Allah" predates the birth of Islam. There are many peace-loving Christians who refer to our God the Father as "Allah".

Here's the quote: "I also saw that Old Jerusalem never would be built up; and that Satan was doing his utmost to lead the minds of the children of the Lord into these things now, in the gathering time, to keep them from throwing their whole interest into the present work of the Lord, and to cause them to neglect the necessary preparation for the day of the Lord." A Sketch of the Christian Experience and Views of Ellen G. White, pg.62

Fantastic stuff. I've listened to their material for years. My local libraries have them available for free. I couldn't afford it otherwise.

Well check them all out and decide what is the best value and provides what you want. I Find the video to be of great value. But, your point is well taken, there is much free available.

I don't think so, brother. "Allah" is Arabic word which means "Deity" or "God"; "satan" is a Hebrew word which means "adversary".

I see your point clearly and I'm not offended. I believe that not everyone who holds to the beliefs listed here will be lost because its not my place to say who is willfully rejecting truth and who is simply not well informed on certain points (much like I once was). I believe that some people's hearts will also accept the truth when its presented clearly in front of them before Jesus returns. But I also believe that certain beliefs, if clung to without reason and without excuse, can make a person more vulnerable when the Mark of the Beast challenge occurs on this earth. In my opinion I did not see this as an end all be all test to declare whether someone is a real Christian or not, because I won't know that unless I make it to Heaven and find out who's there and who isn't. I saw this more-so as a checklist to determine which doctrines I haven't considered to question or not. I hope you don't take me for a heterodox (?). Also, I don't know Scuba personally, but in their defense they probably didn't quite mean it in the way you think they did either. (Correct me if I'm wrong, Scuba.) This was probably a very abbreviated way of them getting across the point that there are some truths that people have a bit mixed up. Note how they never said in their OP that people who hold those beliefs aren't true Christians, they merely stated that such beliefs could pull someone in line with the beast and potentially cause them to accept his image. I think both of you (brotherly love and Scuba) mean well and you two probably agree on more than you think. But as far as I've read, I think you two might be misunderstanding one another. I could be wrong. But I find myself agreeing with both of you on some level. Maybe this might not make sense to certain folks here when I say this, but I see no conflict in believing that the aforementioned information is true, but that it is not our right to assume that those who are unclear on such information are lost eternally. I would however state clearly, just to avoid confusion on my beliefs, that I do prescribe to the idea that Sunday will be a great test of faith in the end. And that soon it will be a means for Satan to threaten us into bowing to him or facing the most uncomfortable treatment in human history. And @JoeMo: Thanks for saying that I would be able to understand! It made me smile to know that you would assume such a positive thing about me. Oh yeah, and about the Resurrection of Christ: I believe He died on Friday, rested on Sabbath and rose on Sunday. But I do not believe that that is good enough reason to forsaken the Sabbath and worship on Sundays if you know better.

Don't we all?

You could be right. I have not looked at the material you referenced. My guess is that neither have many of our decision makers across the Division and therefore I still say the position held by most in the northern countries is culturally driven. One take away from the session that I haven't really talked to many people about is that for the first time in my life as an SDA I feel that my church is not able to rightly handle the Word. Perhaps naively I've thought that we generally can come to solid Biblical positions but some of the arguments deployed against WO have been alarmingly weak. I guess it is time for those rose-tints to come off. As I type I'm remembering 1880 so this is not new, alas. Brother, you are usually on point but you are getting hyperbolic now.

That reminds me of a joke that goes something like this.... "What do they call the student who is not popular, completely nerdy, and a computer geek after high school ends?" Answer: Boss

There must be some contamination in that water in Kentucky!!! The only explanation that makes sense is willful ignorance on your part when it comes to the use of the N word. You can use it if you really want to but you seem upset that you can't use it anymore!!!

As I noted earlier, it's clear that we mean different things by the term. It makes complete sense to me why you would oppose the things you understand by the term 'socialism'. I oppose those things too. What I'm not seeing is an understanding from you of why I support the things *I* mean by the term 'socialism'.

phkrause, Are you sure that the church's position does not have a little need of up dating? After all isn't the Laodicean message that something has crept into the church that you don't see in its proper focus? It thinks that it is in "need of nothing" but Jesus says it is "blind" and needs "eyesalve" so it can see something that it is overlooking. So instead of "not at all" maybe some of it's position on the beast and antichrist might be worthy of review?

I dont men to be disrespectful, sorry if you took it this way. It is an observation, not disrespectful. 37 years does not justify a wrong or right paradigm, many people have studied the bible longer and come to the wrong conclusions on some topics

Einstein dies and goes to heaven, only to be informed that his room is not yet ready. "I hope you will not mind waiting in a dormitory. We are very sorry, but it's the best we can do and you will have to share the room with others," he is told by the doorman. Einstein says that this is no problem at all and that there is no need to make such a great fuss. So the doorman leads him to the dorm. They enter and Albert is introduced to all of the present inhabitants. "See, here is your first roommate. He has an IQ of 180!" "That's wonderful!" says Albert. "We can discuss mathematics!" "And here is your second roommate. His IQ is 150!" "That's wonderful!" says Albert. "We can discuss physics!" "And here is your third roommate. His IQ is 100!" "That's wonderful! We can discuss the latest plays at the theater!" Just then another man moves out to capture Albert's hand and shake it. "I'm your last roommate. I'm sorry, but my IQ is only 80." Albert smiles back at him and says, "So, you want to talk politics?"

Moishe Miller was having some trouble in Hebrew class. To encourage him, his teacher Mrs. Shalva said, "You'll know you're really beginning to get it when you start dreaming in Hebrew." One day, Moishe ran into class all excited, saying, "Mrs. Shalva! I had a dream last night and everyone was talking in Hebrew!" "Great!" said Mrs. Shalva. "What were they saying?" "I don't know," Moishe replied; "I couldn't understand them."

I have been very blessed in conversations with yourself, and you would have responded the same way in the end

Bonnie, this is not just liberal pc bs. If you were an unbiased observer you would be well aware that the conservatives have their own brand of pc as well and it is not very much different, but may be even more militantly anti-free speech. When I was in college most, if not all pc (the term was not yet widely known when I entered college) was from the so-called liberal side of the issues. Shortly after I returned to college and finally graduated 9 years later most pc stuff, and definitely the most anti-free speech portions of it came from the young republicans, many of whom were more "conservative" than their "adult" counterparts. Generally this stuff comes from the extremes of both sides. Both sides have their own form of PC they try to force on society at large. The two "sides" are not polar opposites as they would like you to believe and both are nothing more than tools of the powers that be which use both to further their own agenda and lead the unthinking masses about by the nose. Both sides are a long way from the ideals of the Kingdom of Heaven and if Christians would ever study scriptures they would find that skewed by sin as they are, the "liberal's" social policies are more often than not much closer to God's truth than the "conservative's" principles are. It is just that both sides alike have completely rejected God's law; both claim the moral high ground and the rejection of God and his ways by the "liberals" is a bit more honest than that of the "conservatives" who wear their religion on their sleeves, and like Judah claim their idolatry is the true worship of the God of Heaven (see Jeremiah 3 and the contrast between Israel (liberals) and Judah (conservatives), both of whom worshiped the same idols.) Yes, it is just continual chipping away, but both sides are guilty, and the self-righteous side is more so.

I say absolutely not!! 1. Jehovah is a God of love, Allah is a god of war. 2. Jehovah has a Son. Allah does not. 3. Allah (or his prophets at least) call for the death on all non-believers and infidels, Jehovah God "so loved the world that he allowed His own Son to die so we would not have to. Allah is another name for satan. Anyone who allies himself with Allah is indeed in danger of having their name blotted out of the Book of Life and being assigned to the lake of fire. Saying that Allah and Jehovah are the same is at the extreme end of the emergent church; and opens the door to negotiating with satan and melding the principles of satan's kingdom with our own. Forming alliances with the enemy and incorporating their religious practice is how Israel became a harlot. Is forming an alliance with Islam and incorporating their religious practices out of fear and an "ecumenical spirit" going to make many Christian churches harlots as well? When a jihadist is holding a sword to your throat (more likely in the Philipines than in the U.S.), are you gonna say Allah is God? It is dangerous even to postulate the possibility that Allah and Jehovah are the same. That's one way satan can deceive even the very elect.

Heb 4:9 "There remains a Sabbath-keeping for God's people. 10 For the one who has entered God's rest also rests from his own works, as God did from his." What type of Sabbath keeping remains? The one connected not so much to the law, but rather the gospel. Yes, the law points to redemption (see Deut 5:15), but Paul is linking the Sabbath to God's rest, which was His work of redemption "in Christ Jesus". So the believer who has accepted the gospel (compare to Heb 4:2,3) also, in addition to accepting it, "rests" from his works just as God did from His work "in Christ"! What's the implication? God's work "in Christ" was perfect and complete. That's why He rested. For the believer to rest as God rested means that outward, by keeping the Sabbath, he is stating that I am complete "in Christ" and I can add nothing to God's work "in Christ". Hence it is a sign of justification by faith. The Sabbath, properly understood, is anything but legalistic. In fact not to keep it is a sign of legalism.

Matt 24 "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days... He will send forth His angels and they will gather His elect" -- it happens after the tribulation not before or during 2 Thess 2 "regarding our gathering together to Him... that day will NOT happen until after" the falling away AND the man of sin is reveal Rev 19 is AFTER the Rev 16 plagues -- not before. Rev 20 the FIRST resurrection is AFTER the Rev 16 last plagues - not before. ANd the "dead in Christ rise FIRST" 1Thess 4 - at the FIRST resurrection. The Bible is clear on this point.

Sorry to inform you, but civilization has already passed the tipping point and cannot recover.

Actually, the Second Law says that how much something accelerates is greater the greater force acting, and less the greater the mass. So changing our perspectives - on parenting or anything else - depends on how much inertia we have, and how much force is applied...