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Kevin, One thing is for sure in my psyche is that I am opposed to most all of Calvinism and reject the present day system of Lutheranism. That leaves the community of Wesleyism which is more as to how I tend to lean. There are no Methodist churches anywhere around us where we live that honor the holiness of the seventh day, and also accept the sleep-death of the dead. So I would never feel at all comfortable in Methodist church services for various reasons. My first being taken aback in a small level of shock when I starting fellowshipping with SDA's was their elitest pompousness of boasting of their being God's chosen ones who are better than all other denomonations or christian-called groups. You wrote..... "While I understand that it is the issue between wanting to esteem ourselves more highly than others, of making less of the outside world. As opposed to loving the world as Jesus has loved it. We are both Wesleyans. But like Dr. David Larson said they are on Wesley's right and we are on Wesley's left. But we have the Wesleyan connection unlike the more evangelicals like Ford who are more Lutheran and Calvinistic in their approach." Yes, indeed I for one have been helped by your 5 part contribution of explanation for the chronological happenings in the SDA camp over the decades. Now I have an almost orderly version in my mind of Adventism development. Thank you for teaching us here with your postings.

Sucky god you serve Wingnut. I'll pass thanks, as I haven't had that experience. LOL My God has been so good to me all my life no matter how bad things were.

Obviously as a practising physician I come with a rather different attitude from at least one other posting here. My basic attitude is that God gave us brains ..so we need to consider and evaluate our best individual paths. I happen to believe one way that knowledge has been increased in these 'last days' is in health and medicine in general. Healthy lifestyle is important, but that will not save someone bleeding heavily after major trauma. I can think of various scenarios in my own profession of OBGYN that require more than just comments about how one should be living. Having said that, I have found a basic lack of knowledge of healthy living out there and spend quite a lot of my consulting time with some patients giving advice which I did not learn in medical school, but was rather part of the way my parents taught me to live. I believe there is a place for medication and for medical procedures, but try to be discerning in the way I apply those beliefs. And in the context of mental health, I would have the same approach. .

Kevin, Yes, indeed I for one have been helped by your 5 part contribution of explanation for the chronical happenings in the SDA camp over the decades. Now I have an almost orderly version in my mind of Adventism development. Thank you for teaching us here with your postings. You wrote..... "While I understand that it is the issue between wanting to esteem ourselves more highly than others, of making less of the outside world. As opposed to loving the world as Jesus has loved it. We are both Wesleyans. But like Dr. David Larson said they are on Wesley's right and we are on Wesley's left. But we have the Wesleyan connection unlike the more evangelicals like Ford who are more Lutheran and Calvinistic in their approach." One thing is for sure in my psyche is that I am opposed to most all of Calvinism and reject the present day system of Lutheranism. That leaves the community of Wesleyism which is more as to how I tend to lean. There are no Methodist churches anywhere around us where we live that honor the holiness of the seventh day, and also accept the sleep-death of the dead. So I would never feel at all comfortable in Methodist church services for various reasons.

How did I find your name: We all leave a trail in the Internet. I just followed the trail. As I respect privacy, I did not identify that it was your name. If I had wanted, I possibly could have discovered your home address and more. But, I was not interested.

In your opinion. While it's true in some situations, it's not true for many people. Cell mutations and other health issues can happen to anyone....even to adherents of Drs Day (who is listed on QuackWatch), Schultze (not a medical physician), and McDougall (who advocates consuming very large amounts of carbohydrates each day)...

Hmm, the way I understand it, what has been translated witchcraft in the KJV does indeed come from the Greek for pharmaceuticals. The God's Word Translation renders it, "drug use," or something to that effect. It may have been connected with witchcraft in the time of the KJV because witches were known to have a knowledge of herbs and how to mix them. But there are also certain herbs (Jesus used mud once) that are healing. Drugs come from plants, don't they? There are healing drugs and ones that rob life from people.

Neglectful is a form of abuse. Sometimes worse than the other forms of abuse. I'm sorry your dad didn't know how to connect. Mine didn't either. That can and does cause real suffering to others, especially children. Problem is, when other folks knew my childhood sucked I was at a loss as it was normal to me. I didn't know the damage it caused to my psyche, that the good Lord has been working on through the biblical 12 step program. He gets faster results the more diligent I am. As for religious folks, sometimes we really have no idea how abusive or outrageous we can be. We think we're fine, we think others are fine. We may never cause Jim Jones effects, but we can and do "kill" people with our responses. "Good" christian folk can be the worse as on the surface they appear good but it is all superficial. There are good Christian folk, but they aren't superficial. They're heaven to be around. Especially for those who've had a lot to deal with, or those who're going through hard times. It can be difficult to get to the real root of the problem when people are so angry at what has happened, and/or using their anger to prevent more abuse. There are also angry people like my roomie who is all about herself. She uses manipulation and bullying in an attempt to get what she wants as she appears to view people here to serve her in some manner. She got so bad the last bad time that her daycare insisted on her meds being upped. She hated that so much that she straightened up real quick even before she took the increase. I give her her AM/PM meds so that's how I know. Since I know your sibs don't have that problem but haven't had the best childhood, yes, only God can help as we humbly pray for our hurting loved ones. I am also thankful that as I surrender to Him opening my heart He is able to speak healing through me. Not me. I don't get any glory at all, ever! I am surprised by what comes out of my mouth if I let Him. He is awesome and deserves all the glory!

Rachel, I am sorry that you have debilitating headaches. I also suffer from chronic migraines, although in the last few weeks I have had some respite. I know what it means to camp out by the toilet and not move because even the slightest head movement brings on another wave of pain. I have taken many sick days from work, even to the point of also using my vacation because I had yet another migraine. To me it seems (and I think that JoeMo and Kevin have touched on this) that there is a bit of mystery to the "why" to suffering. So far, as I am just still learning, I am impressed that my part is to learn to trust God. I have a feeling that the principle of freedom of choice, not ours but others' and also Satan's, leads us to sorrow quite often. And no doubt my freedom of choice allows me to wound others. I am thankful, though, that God doesn't waste our suffering but skilfully endows us with patience and endurance through it. We do gain tools to help others through understanding and empathy and sometimes with wisdom from having been there. I just do not have the answer. I know suffering causes people to surrender faith in God. Why some people grow in grace during calamity while others shake their fists at God probably is due to many factors. If we luck on to the correct, healing encouragement that connects to where a person is at the moment I praise God for it. I am not sure whether doing/saying the wrong thing is worse than saying nothing. All I know is that in this world everyone gets a turn.

Really, none of this makes any sense. Why would Jesus, the great Physician, send someone to a doctor? Saying he never did so means quite literally, nothing. And what is perhaps even more sad is glibly accusing SDAs, or anyone, of worshipping doctors. Especially in light of the apparent, albeit superficial, attempt at considering the meaning of words. Look up the word "worship" in the dictionary. I think perhaps another word to also look up is exaggeration...

So what? The word "Mark," when applied to a person has a background in Latin as denoting one as being a worshiper of Mars. The word "Orman," when applied to a person has in the English language a background as denoting a spearman. This history relates to one who accompanied Strongbow, a real persons in battle. However, in the Irish language it denoted a wine steward.

funny that Luke, a physician, is held in high regard in the scriptures

Requiring medical assistance is not worshipping Dr's.Without them my husband would have passed away several years ago. Femster mentioned Restless leg syndrome. For those that dont have that it is easy to dismiss. It runs in my family and untreated it destroys your life. You are so sleep deprived you are not safe to eve. drive. Some are fotunate to have only a mild case. For those of us that have the severe form medical help is vital

Sadly many feel this way. We shouldn't feel unbalanced by it. Remember our pioneers were the thrown away fragments from their beloved churches and our church was formed as a refuge for fragments, or as they preferred to see themselves as a collection of remnants. There are times in which we choose to get a long better with each other and sadly other times where we want to make a uniformity in the church and make us like the other churches around us, and make our version of Adventism the only true version. For some sad reason there is a neurotic need in Adventism to try to prove to the world that we are good Baptists.

Part 4 Thus through the 20s and 30s and 40s fundamentalism grew in the church. Instead of seeing growth in Mrs. White and look for context and what and who and why she was writing, they saw her writings as the final word of almighty God that did not need to grow. And they saw her views as God's perfect desire for all people. People would turn to her early writings and saw them as final. Mrs. White went from a shut door Adventist into becoming a very popular speaker in Sunday keeping churches. People read her quotes but lost the historical context of the quotes. For example Mrs. White wrote quiet a bit about novels and fiction. She did not write it in a vacuum. She was sharing views that were also being taught by people such as Nathaniel Hawthorn and Herman Melville and other serious writers at the time. Now wait a minute. Hawthorn and Melville and these others who Mrs. White was quoting were novelists and fiction writers. Were they condemning their own work? Were they saying that their work is wrong to read? Or could they have been talking about something else? But not knowing the historical context we end up condemning the works of Hawthorn and Melville and use their words (as borrowed by Mrs. White) against them but end up accepting what they were all complaining about. Higher education was learning all there was about the romance languages Greek mythology and Shakespeare. It was luxury for the idol rich to become sophisticated. In the 1800s there was a debate over whether higher education should continue in this path or if it should be more practical and where people could learn how to do real jobs. They called the colleges that were focused on learning a life's work as agricultural programs rather than classical programs. The church debated over which Battle Creek should be. Mrs. White took her stand. She wrote things about classical education, including things about Shakespeare. They closed Battle creek and Willie White went to California and Stephen Haskell went to South Lancaster MA were they were racing each other as to who would start a school first. White won with what became PUC. Haskell's school became Atlantic Union College. Now both Willie and Haskell were in touch with Mrs. White in the planning of these schools. While I don't know about PUC (maybe someone else can check it out and let us know) but at AUC they did not have the Greek myths. They focused on developing job skills and they moved Shakespeare from being a major study in the classroom to performing his plays on Saturday night. Thus we find that among those implementing Mrs. White's counsel about Shakespeare not doing away with him completely but making him a side issue instead of central to study. However, we read Mrs. White's counsel on Shakespeare and think we need to become ignorant of his work. (Well, maybe someone will show that as Mrs. White came to see how the schools were running that the facility of AUC were careful to get her a Sabbath afternoon ticket out of town so that she would not realize that they were having Shakespeare plays for their Saturday night programs). Mrs. White wrote a criticism of the circus. It was held by many religious leaders. P. T. Barnum was a Christian and was concerned about why religious leaders spoke and wrote against the circus and purposely worked to reform the circus. Now I read in the White estate vault that Barnum and Mrs. White were acquaintances with each other, on good terms and that he helped to sponsor her in temperance meeting. But I read that only in a secondary source, I don't know how much to trust the author and the author did not give a foot note for that statement. But I have found that it could be correct since Adventists had a place set up to witness to those coming to Barnum's circus. He did rent her some of his tents for some of her meetings. But anyway, Willie White believed that Barnum's circus was different from what he mother was criticizing and saw nothing wrong with attending the Barnum show. He was planning to bring his children to see it. But people quote Mrs. White's comment and said how can her son and grandchildren attend the circus and thus they decided not to go because they did not want to bring shame to the name of Jesus. If you were to read files in the White estate of different topics and standards you would find in say Jewelry, or dancing or topic after topic this pattern: Things written by Mrs. White and the pioneers. But then through the 1920s and 30s you would find someone writing to the Review and asking "Since Adventist don't do this, why do we do that?" Then there would be a big complain arguing that what we were doing was so much like what we did not do that we should stop doing something we were doing. When the dust would settle down and we would stop doing this and also have stopped doing that then sure enough someone else would write in "Now that we no longer do that, what about this other thing over here, isn't it too close to doing that so we should also stop doing this other thing" and like throwing a stone into a lake and the circles go wider, so the circle of things we did not do grew wider and the things that we did do became lesser and lesser. Thus by the 1940s we had different ideas about novels and fiction from the context of what Mrs. White was writing in. We had different ideas on how to apply her counsel on Shakespeare than those who were working with her on that topic applied it, and had a much longer list of don'ts and a much shorter list of do's than Mrs. White and the pioneers had.

Part 3: As the trinity moved from an optional minority belief to a more central position as Mrs. White developed more of the Great Controversy especially in light of 1888, then there was more interest in the atonement and Jesus being not only our example but also our substitute. And there of course came a changing from the non-Trinitarian view of Jesus to accepting that traditional Christian view. It is wise here to read the source (I'm sorry I can't remember the author's name, but there are people here who can add it here) where it beautifully describes the truth of the nature of Jesus. Mrs. White picked some of his best sayings. However the anti-trinity people were not thrown out of the church. People talk about unity and fracturing of the church. But God has always used unity in diversity. A careful reading of the Bible shows 3 groups in the Old Testament, those based on the priesthood of Moses, those based on the priest hood of Aaron and those based on the royal theology. These 3 groups got along as well as we do. Sometime contrast say Leviticus and Deuteronomy. We find similar things in the New Testament with Peter and Paul, and if we did not have John holding the two together we probably would have had 2 very different Christian churches by the end of the first century. Sometime contrast Mark and Luke. (due to fundamentalism we fear contrast and say that we have to throw out the Bible if we find any contradictions in it, and close our eyes to the contradictions, but they are there for a reason and teach us different truths that we would not have were it not for the contradictions). Our pioneers were from different churches and thrown out for thinking differently on some points. They came together to form a church where they could agree on a HANDFUL of landmarks, and outside of that agree to disagree and follow the dictates of their own conscience, just as long as they were not fanatical. Thus our church was designed among fragments and to encourage fragments. Fragmentation at the expense of unity is wrong, and unity at the expense of fragmentation is equally wrong. We use to move pastors around every few years so that our members could learn different aspects and fragments of Adventism to help them piece together their own understanding of Adventism. Mrs. White wanted a conservative and a liberal publishing house independent of each other. We have rejected her advice and the pioneers by wanting to make our ministers and publishing house workers clones of each other. So we came to a time where the trinity was more central but there were also brothers and sisters who did not believe the trinity. Both theologies were in the church. Then came the fight against fundamentalism in the church, with an ageing Mrs. White, an ageing Elder Butler, as well as A. G. Daniels, W. W. Prescott, Willie White and the religion faculty of Washington Missionary College who were fighting against fundamentalism. People like Elder Spicer who believed in fundamentalism when it came to the Bible but believed that Mrs. White's inspiration was different from the Bibles and thus a anti-fundamentalist towards her work. People like Stephen Haskell who was a fundamentalist towards the Bible and Mrs. White and had a moderate view of 1888, and people like Elders Washburn and Wilkinson who were fundamentalists towards Mrs. White and the Bible and were anti-Trinitarian and were anti-Jones and Wagner (however their followers found ways of re-editing Jones and Wagner to make it appear that they fully believed like Elders Washburn and Wilkinson and the others from this group.) By the way Elder Butler was Elder Washburn's uncle. They were united in 1888 against Jones and Wagner, but in the 1900s were on opposite sides of the fundamentalism question. As early as the early 1880s Elder Butler wrote against fundamentalism. Mrs. White and Willie White wrote some scorching letters to Washburn and Wilkinson and others from their views. I wish the church would publish them. I came across several of them when reading in the White Estate vault at Andrews. She and Willie attacked their fundamentalism ideas and their works orientation and said that although they loved to give massive quotations from her writings that they were missing the larger view and that they knew many of her quotes but did not understand her message. That they were using her words to spread their views and to make it look like she agreed with them and to give be an authority to force their views on to others and she and Willie did not approve of how they were using her words. Mrs. White lost this battle. She died in 1915. Elder Butler died in 1917. In 1919 there was an interdenominational Bible conference held by the fundamentalists in 1919. Since many of our people were going to attend that conference Elder Daniels and Elder Prescott asked them to stop by Washington D. C on their way to Philadelphia, where they talked about some topics such as the eastern question (there were things that they expected with Turkey to bring about the end of the world. Those things happened in W. W. 1 but the war ended, all the prophecies were fulfilled to the letter except that Jesus did not come). and to make an attempt to attack the ideas that they were going to go to Philadelphia to listen to. Willie White was to help them, but probably realizing that they were fighting a loosing battle, he discovered that he had to be out of town the days of the conference. At first the Washington D. C conference looked successful. It appeared that Elder Daniels and Prescott clarified some questions, there were only a few people, such as Elder Haskell, and of course Washburn and Wilkinson who left unhappy at the anti-fundamentalist message they received from the General Conference leaders. Sadly the delegates did not return home, but Satan encouraged them to not loose the money they spent on their tickets back east to attend the conference in Philadelphia. In Philadelphia the whore of Babylon seduced them so that they rejected the message from Daniels and Prescott and sided with Haskell and/or Washburn and Wilkinson against Daniels, Prescott and White. and they came home preaching not what they learned in Washington DC but what they learned in Philadelphia. This lead to the 1923 General conference where Daniels and Prescott were demoted. Willie got to keep his job but his position was striped of any power or influence (basically he was fired but allowed to come to his office and bring home a pay check). They threw out the religion faculty of Washington Missionary College and had a witch hunt for professors and pastors who sided with Daniels, Prescott, White and Washington Missionary College. Now they replaced Daniels with Elder Spicer who was seen as almost as big a heretic as Daniels. But Daniels believed that fundamentalism would destroy the church and believed in fighting against it. Prescott was a fundamentalist towards the Bible but a anti-fundamentalist when it came to Mrs. White and he was willing to keep his heresy to himself. He did not hold with Daniels that Fundamentalism could destroy the church and would allow the members to believe it.

Part 2: Towards the end of his life James White wrote a letter saying that he was starting to find the arguments for the trinity more convincing than those that opposed the trinity. Mrs. White's Great Controversy Philosophy is that we have the 3 aspects of God. God as impersonal power both inside and outside of time and space. Yet, God as personal friend one of us, and angel to the angels, a human to humans and inferred as appearing to the beings on the different planets as one of them, until he actually became the person Jesus Christ. These two aspects are both objective revelations of God, but we are objective and subjective so God the Holy Spirit as God working with our subjective. That we need all three in tension. The 3 beasts of Revelation are the 3 aspects of the trinity but not in a oneness as the Biblical trinity is, but where they are either independent of each other, or united for their own selfish purposes: The red dragon or spiritualism, live as you please for heaven is your home. there is no right or wrong except for what is right or wrong for you. the philosophy of Existentialism. (not to be confused with say labeling things such as Maslow's hierarchy of needs or William Glasser's "Choice Theory"" and needs assessment as existential psychologies). Existentialism is saying that what is important for you is the only truth there is and your truth might be completely different than someone else's. It is the philosophy of the French Revolution that freedom is being free from law. This is a counterfeit of the Holy Spirit who is working with our personal situation. The beast is the opposite of the dragon. While the dragon goes for absence of law beyond what is law to you in your own experience. The beast is something from outside ourselves that tells us what to do. The Roman government, Kings and popes, Nazism. Anything we use in our life to replace Christ and to do our thinking for us. This is a counterfeit God the Father. The lamblike beast is the individual making choices based on what they understand of the law and their existential situation (not allowing the existential situation be the final authority but seeing how to apply God's law to their life). Thus it is represented in the priest head of all believers and the independence of the United States. But it ends up making an image to the beast. While the demons prefer the philosophy of spiritualism and the French Revolution, they find it a lot of hard work to temp every person with their own tailor made temptations. They found the group work of everyone bowing to the golden image, everyone obeying Greece or Rome or the Pope or Hitler much easier. So they compromise between the two by saying that it is to our advantage (the spiritualism message) to follow those telling us what to do, despite us all needing to compromise one principle or another to go along with the system. A false deliverance, a false Christ. In the trinity the 3 aspects work together: There is an all-knowing creator upon the throne with ultimate truth. A Savior to follow to come into this relationship and the Holy Spirit to work with our own existential qualities and situations, realizing that our existential qualities and situations, or hierarchy of needs or our needs assessments and choice theory are ways for us to strive towards a goal. The trinity live together in a righteousness by faith relationship based on the law of self sacrificing love. We may ask what that means so we have the two great principles of loving God supremely and loving our neighbor as our selves. How do we do this? We have the 10 commandments. Now there is evidence that God only said 10 words on the mountain. There are a few lists of 10 based on the 10 words. Some of the places where it says "Do not boil a calf in it's mother's milk" are in lists of 10 based on the 10 words. But the best known list is found in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5. What is interesting is that the Exodus 20 version breaks into 3 thirds. The first third deals with 3 commandments on how to love God supremely, the role of God the Father. The last third deals with 6 commandments that describes the work of the Holy Spirit in making us loving and loveable people. The middle third consists of one commandment that tells us that the only way we can love God supremely and love our neighbor as our selves is through resting in a friendship with God. This is the ministry of Jesus. (No wonder Satan hates the middle third of the 10 commandments). Mrs. White pictures Satan as having 3 deceptions. Each is an attack on the trinity. First that God is not really God but just a higher life form that has become a cruel arbitrary tyrant. Second and third is that if God is God then God claims to be both just and merciful. He can't be both. He has to be one or the other. If he is just then he has to get us for our sins. If he is merciful then he has to forgive us and do away with the law. The second deception (which had more emphases before the cross) attacks Jesus who died for us. The third (which he brought forward after the cross) attacks the Holy Spirit who changes us. To make a oneness out of this, we find that Jesus died the second death on the cross (and could have died it in the wilderness or the garden). I could go and discuss more about hell fire here, but I've discussed this in other threads. I'll just summarize that "the glory of him that is love will consume the wicked" Jesus is our deepest desire. Hell fire is the beauty glory and love of God. Prophets felt like they were being burned alive when they first saw God in person, but learned that they could not only survive the fire but thrived in it and hated to leave it. Outside of vision Moses was only able to see the back of God and from that he glowed. Our deepest desire is to love the world as Jesus has loved it, or to be like and with Jesus. Being with Jesus is our deepest desire. He is the desire of all nations, Daniel and Song of Solomon calls him "The one beloved of women" the desire of ages, the one more desirable than gold and sweeter than honey. Although this is our deepest desire, it is not necessarily the one in power. We are constantly choosing between our deepest desire to love the world as Jesus has loved it, to be like and with him, and our sinful nature, the disposition to think we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world. Everything we do are affected by these 2 drives. Even at our best there is a taint of selfishness and even at our worst we are trying to arrange things so that we can like the world around us better. In hell fire those who have the sinful nature in control will want to come to Jesus but refuse and have destroyed their will to be able to choose to yield to their deepest desire and thus the glory of him that is love will consume them. (the "God does not kill" people see half the truth but use it against the rest of the truth.) While God the Father is seen as a great power, and God the Holy Spirit is understood through his work on our subconscious and thus hard to understand, God the son to Lucifer appeared as another angel. God as one of us, and the Sabbath Commandment is us resting in a friendship with God as our friend, thus Jesus is a special target of Satan, which we see in the constant attacks on the doctrine of the trinity.

Part 1: I did a quick read. I do need to read slower to get a better feel. But I am fairly familiar with Elder Kirkpatrick's thought, at least from how it was 11 years ago. I already see one point of growing. He has gone from a black and white either you believe just like him or else you believe exactly like Desmond Ford mentality to seeing 5 different subgroups. I still don't like my quick reading of them but at least it has shown some growth. Also, he was very much identifying himself with the so called "Historic Adventists" and when awake I need to try to understand clearer why he now sees himself as more "last generation" and what the difference is between what he sees as "Last Generation" and the rest of "Historic Adventism" If you can help clarify these points to me I'd really appreciate it. "Last Generation" had been a mainstay of "Historic Adventism". However both Elder Andreasen and Elder Douglass were more moderate than the traditional "Historic Adventists" are But on his list of influences; the rejecting the "Purple Issues Book" and following Joe Crews, Dennis Priebe, William Fagal, P. Gerard Damsteegt, C. Mervyn Maxwell, Jim Brackett, and Herbert Douglass. It is only Maxwell and Douglass who I would not consider as "Historic Adventists" Now like the Historic Adventists/ "Last Generation" people I do see an issue in the last generation. However from my understanding of Mrs. White and the Bible we have some major differences. The article above said "Dennis Priebe helped the church by pointing to the issue of the doctrine of sin. This is the fountainhead. Get it right or get it wrong, and a whole theology rises from it." While there is much that I like about Priebe's work, he has a gearing error that he got wrong and a whole theology rises from this error. For centuries the church debated the nature of Jesus. It finally came to, what I believe was a correct conclusion that Jesus had his own unique nature and while there were some similar qualities in both, we cannot say that Jesus had the nature of Adam before the fall nor ours after the fall. Before the fall Adam's appetites desires and passions were under the control of reason. His body did not tire, he did not suffer from things such as hunger and thirst. And he did not have what Mrs. White describes in the communion chapter of Desire of Ages as "There is in man a disposition to esteem himself more highly than his breathern, to serve self, to seek the highest place and often this results in evil surmisings and bitterness of spirit." or as the poet philosopher Eli Siegel put it "There is in every person a disposition to think they are for themselves by making less of the outside world." For us after sin we do tire, suffer from things such as hunger and thirst. Our appetites, desires and passions are not naturally under the control of reason, and we do have the disposition to think we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world. This last point is what makes us a sinner. This disposition to think we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world IS THE SINFUL NATURE. Jesus was able to tire, hunger, thirst and his appetites, desires and passions were not naturally and automatically under the control of reason. However Jesus differs from us in that he did NOT have in him the disposition to think he was for himself by making less of the outside world. Jesus did NOT have the sinful nature. Our Adventist pioneers held some views from Luther and even more so John Wesley, as well as applying to religion the philosophy of Thomas Jefferson. They then had these views colored by understandings that they were coming to about the law of God. Since they were dealing with people with similar views from Luther, Wesley and Jefferson, they would point out the additional things they were learning. However, also, among our pioneers the trinity was an optional doctrine and a minority view. There were things about Jesus and the Atonement that were crowded out of their minds by their rejection of the trinity, and would look at Jesus more as our example rather than our substitute. The second generation of Adventists were taking what they were learning from the first generation, however did not have the exposure that the first generation had to Luther, Wesley and Jefferson. Thus there were two different mindsets for looking at the information. Two different directions to approach what they were learning from the law. We ended up preaching the law the law the law until we were as dry as the hills of gilboah and we had the 1888 crisis.

My daughter is now a mommy. She was in the delivery room as Samantha was being born, and was allowed to cut the umbilical cord. In the photo it looks as if my daughter had been crying, and she had, big tears of happiness. She and her husband were unable to conceive for many years, but made a connection in WA with an expectant mother who already had 3 children and definitely didn't want a 4th. My daughter had to suffer through a number of fertility treatments, none of which were successful. Samantha is officially adopted by my daughter and her husband, and was delivered by C-section a day or so ago. My daughter thought that she was perfect, even though Samantha howled during her first bath. She quieted down after she was wrapped up warmly and held by her new parents. The hospital gave the them a room to stay in until the baby is allowed to go home with them, just a day or two after birth. I think she has 1 month of maternity leave from the SDA conference where she works. Samantha.doc

How do I know? Lately I've been on non-SDA sites; they are not open to anything except their own preconceived views. It's very sad!

So what do you think. Skim to the pics then you can go back and read if you want. Do take time to study the last pics. P.S Rectangles can also be used to do percents, and n(n+1)/2, and....and.... Basically reduced to counting. And fun for kids, like me. LOL http://www.crewtonramoneshouseofmath.com/factoring-polynomials.html

According to the above statement, ain't going to be many people leaving this earth for heaven. One must believe in God for salvation, so if one doesn't believe they will be healed by God, they are in fact an unbeliever. A person gets sick for many reasons, not just because of lifestyle. When the flu season is around, I reckon one must be living the wrong lifestyle if they catch it from someone else. So those, who don't catch it, must be living the right one. Much convoluted and uninformed thinking going on here. 'God puts that person......' so God is doesn't want the best for his children, He purposely hurts them to bring about change! Talk about your Gods of paganism and mythology, all in the same category! Not the type of belief system I would embrace!!

Thanks, Kevin, for the insight. I have mentioned it on the board before that there is more to Jesus than we can EVER understand. For me it is not a matter to be fought over but one where we sit at His feet in awe and praise God. I like the point about making more of ourselves and less of the world. AMEN! It is this point which brings me over and over to square one in my faith, simplistic as it seems. I don't view it as a bad thing; it is what keeps me in a state of wonder in contemplation of our Heavenly Father. I agree with the concept as where sin originates. It is a marvel how deeply-rooted sin is in our hearts, but it is, and God knows it way better than we know ourselves. I have always enjoyed the freedom of diversity to be found among our brethren. I draw a line where the differences make us angry and argumentative. God is love and He gives us freedom of choice. By beholding we should ideally reflect that.

Some wise words there Perks from Gail and Pam....it is hard not to want to make long term plans but you are being wise in considering the possible problems of a future with someone who does not share your belief system. Do you go out much with friends....not necessarily male ...in your home town? It would be a shame if skyping this guy, however nice, was your main social outlet. I tried a long distance relationship some years ago, before my husband and I met, and there is a lot you can only get to know about someone by meeting in the flesh. I am unsure from your post whether you have actually met in person. If you can take advice from someone rather older than you...enjoy the friendship but do not make long term commitments until you have known each other in real time and space for a while.

Hi, Perks I like your avatar While you have so much uncertainty there is nothing wrong with giving it some time. And there is nothing wrong with being really good friends. I hope that this gives you breathing space. I wish you the best!

How do you "date" when you are 9000 miles apart? Have you met and spent time with each other in person?

Great posts Teresaq and 8thdaypriest

There are many, many places in the Bible where the LORD says that He will do something - like destroy Jerusalem, etc. etc. But when you read on, you find that the destruction happened BECAUSE the LORD withdrew His protection or His blessing, or His spirit. Personally, I believe the flood of Noah's day happened for such reason. I don't believe the LORD directly caused the flood. There are only a few places where the LORD Himself, actually harms someone. Nadab and Abihu, - the 250 princes, - Korah, Dathan and Abiram. the Assyrians attacking Jerusalem - and the army of Gog/Magog attacking Jerusalem - Mariam's leprosy. Yes, there's a few. Mostly the LORD destroys indirectly, by withdrawing. There's a study on this at my website. http://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/10-The%20Wrath%20of%20God.pdf "His mercy endures forever." Yes. But only for those who love and obey Him. Or maybe it is a merciful thing, that God destroys the wicked.

I concur ! How I wish we as a Church can sit side by side understanding differently as we do with Jesus as the foundation. Learning from each other and growing up in Him! I heard from an Author of a Christian book say that our Church was once pluralistic. People now get upset when differing views are shared. We had a very elderly couple who were told they can't come (or they will call police) if they say anything more about EGW. Compelling individual conscious. That is not our work. We are to love on and the TRUTH can hold up to scrutiny and questions. No need to fear and control. A God derived supernatural Love for each other not only heals and grows us up .. but places empathy in our hearts toward people who don't believe every little thing as we personally believe and unifies us understanding we are as creation- diverse and working in harmony to win souls over to His love together! May the Joy of the Lord be your Strength to all here!

Tomato juice is a good base for soup. It doesn't contain many of the added and unnecessary ingredients that tomato soup contains, but it still has a tomato soup kind of taste, but you may need to season it yourself.

We do remember that the bible is a translation, and from a revived dead language, right? I mean you aren't quoting from the original language with its original meanings. Now God said the ground would bring forth....but He never said He would make it bring forth...., or that He created thorns. We have to believe that first and then read it into the text. His statement was that it would happen. And it happened because of Adam (male and female humans) sin. As for "I will", He also said He killed king Saul, and I don't know how many similar instances where a closer look shows He did no such thing. Unless of course we need to believe that and so we start coming up with arguments to make it so. Job is an excellent key, for me, to interpreting the "I will" texts by God. First, second, and last chapters. But I'd read the book many times before it popped out at me. It is amazing how many people can read the bible and see nothing but a God of love, while many more see only a god of hate. What an absolute trip. I know for me it was a god of hate and only as I kept reading over and over and over did truth pop out here and there. But I trip on those who saw a God of love from the get-go.

Which one of your statements regarding your beliefs about god didn't make him look at the least uncaring, but even worse, vicious and satanic? I mean, if your beliefs about the god are true there is either no need to believe Satan exists or Satan really is the kind, loving, god and better to die with him than to be with a creator god who creates thorns and animals to devour each other. And humans likewise. No thanks. No thanks at all. My God is NOT, I repeat, NOT like that. Least not that I've seen, tho churchies have too often given that impression.

The thing that really irks me is...why do people have to pay for good advice in this day and age? Stuff that could be freely given to help others (IMO) should be! Lots of people aren't financially able to shell out $90 for information.

I would love to do a study on just what uncleanness entailed.

Genesis 15 says the LORD "came to Abram in a vision". The LORD told Abraham that he would have an heir. He also told Abram that his descendants would be "strangers in a land not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them 400 years". Exodus 12:41 says the Israelites left Egypt 430 years later "to the day". Now - Israel left Egypt on the 15th of Nissan. The 14th is Passover. The 15th is the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. So - Abram received the promise on the night which began the 15th. But Isaac was not born for many years after this vision and promise. In the meantime, Ishmael was born and was some 14 years old by the time Isaac was born. So WHY do "they" think that Isaac was conceived at Passover. Why not one of the other "appointed times"?

I can pray for my sibs, but I cannot do much else. My sister (a physician) tried to convince me that I have a "mental problem", because I believe in a "Santa in the sky", and because I have a website with Bible studies. My brother doesn't even speak to me. I get a birthday card from his wife, once a year. My brother was high up in law enforcement when he retired. My sibs are NOT people you can "talk with". When I came to believe - at age 30 - I did NOT push it on my sibs. Not at all. ('Cause I remembered how much I hated "religion".) But I'm sure they heard about it from my Mom (the only other believer). She's now gone. She lived with my sister for 12 years, acting as nanny to her 3 kids. When the kids got older, she shipped Mom off to me. My sister told her - in no uncertain terms - NEVER to pray in front of her grand-kids, NEVER to speak to them about Jesus or the Bible, etc. etc. How my sweet Mom endured it - I don't know. Only with prayer, and 'cause she loved her grand-kids. From what you describe, you suffered serious abuse. Mine was MILD by comparison.

My DAY JOB, this issue has a focus on the Ministry of IT IS WRITTEN (english) in Canada. http://www.adventist.ca/3dissue/messenger/85-1/

Yes, Luke was a physician. In the time of Christ, the priests acted as physicians, to some extent. They declared people to be either clean or unclean. Yes, we have Biblical examples of Christ sending people to them.

Some great stuff here. Teresaq had a great post about a friend who just "listened" rather than try to explain away or "solve" her pain. That's good advice for us who find it necessary to solve their issues. A lot of the time, sympathy and a good ear can bring more relief than theology. AS made a good point about "pretending" to be blessed when we were at church when we were actually miserable. While I agree with Rachel that it's not prudent to share one's issues with everyone, it is nice to have a few brothers and sisters in an inner circle (small group) to share with. I use this forum al ot to share, probably because there is some security (false though it may be) in anonymity. I loved how Rachel honestly shared above.

If each person at "church" unloaded all the emotion from their hearts to everyone they came into contact with, I fear there would be serious overload. It would hinder the smooth running of the service, and the "learning experience". We have social customs for a reason. They CAN seem very constraining, or useless, when one is really suffering, but they do serve a purpose. Unloading personal struggles and emotions is best done in a small group, or one-to-one with a friend or counselor. The forum can SEEM like a small group, in the way we share things. I DO AGREE that one should be honest with God, and talk to him in a REAL way. I remember - many years ago - sitting in my car literally yelling at the LORD. I was angry and confused. I read the promises that HE would put HIS spirit within me, and cause me to walk in His statutes and to keep HIS Law. I read the promises of healing. Well then - why was I still sinning????? And why had I NOT been healed???? God did not give up on me, or reject me - not in the least!! He loves that kind of REAL communication. What I came to realize, was that I was getting in His way. I kept TRYING - in my own efforts, to "stop sinning". What I had to do was to give up - to realize that I could have no part in overcoming EXCEPT to pray and believe. As for healing - well - that may not come in this life. I believe it's a test of my faith. But He WILL give me the strength to endure - to hold on to faith. And as I said before - if I had not inherited my father's migraines, I may not have been able to understand him, so that I could readily forgive him. As for talking ABOUT God - wow!! - without all of the wonderful commentaries, and without the Bible itself (which talks ABOUT God), I would not have come to understand much about Him. I "met" Jesus, on a sidewalk in Wichita Falls, Texas, one afternoon back in 1980, but that "meeting" - that experience - did not tell me much ABOUT Him. For that I had to read - a LOT. I agree, that sermons do NOT help much, when I have a migraine. I can't even stand to listen to music. I just want the pain to STOP. When a person is suffering great emotional pain, such as a divorce, or the death of a loved one, a sermon is NOT of much help. At those times, just the presence of a friend - especially one who has felt what we are feeling - THAT is greatly helpful.

My father had chronic migraines and chronic depression. (It's a long story, with an abusive father, and the loss of three fingers on his right hand when he was 12.) Back then, there WERE no SSRI's or anything else really, to treat or prevent. He self-medicated with alcohol. The alcohol - over time, took hold, and he could not free himself. My father had moved to Mexico after his license was taken here in the US, for too many DUI. I had not seen him in several years. About six months before he died, he sent a letter asking me to record some of the hymns I used to sing for church. I shamefully admit that I never got around to it. Anyway. Three months before he died, I was absolutely, overwhelmingly convicted to pray for my father, and to "fight for him". So - twice a day - I would pray for him, begging the LORD to create a bubble of protection around him, because I was quite convinced that the demons were holding him fast. I "commanded" in the name of Jesus - as we do in spiritual "warfare". After three months of this, I asked the LORD to give me a clue as to what was happening. My brother called at 4AM the next morning. "Well, Dad's gone," was all he said. "There's more to it," I said. "Oh, you'll love this," he replied. "Dad was at a minister's house. They were having Bible studies (sarcastically). Dad suddenly grabbed his chest, and keeled off the chair." I asked my brother for the minister's phone number. I called later and talked with him. He told me that Dad had indeed been coming to Bible studies. My brother (especially) and my sister too, have never been able to forgive Dad, for the pain he caused us. (They are NOT believers.) My Dad was not mean or abusive - just neglectful. I HAVE been able to forgive him - gladly. I think largely because I understand the pain of chronic migraines. I believe that I will see my Dad someday - in the Kingdom. The LORD allowed me to participate in the victory - for my Dad. I am VERY AWARE that "There but for the grace of God, go I". I write this as an example of HOW we can help someone who is suffering.

The best answer is in reading both chapters "Why was sin permitted" and "The Origen of Evil" from the books Patriarchs and Prophets and Great Controversy, along with the chapter "It is Finished" in Desire of Ages. (I wish that our church would make a little booklet with those 3 chapters, maybe with a fourth chapter on Gethsemane in Desire of Ages). The term Milk and Honey were ancient geographic terms. Honey or preserved foods indicated an agricultural life style. A permanent home. plenty of food (you make the "honey" out of the left over food after you ate) enough money to make an upper class of landowners and a lower working class. This causes leisure time, A life that is predictable, easy and exciting. Milk came from mostly goats, kept out in the desert, moving around looking for food. Not knowing if you will be eating from your garden or plow it under and try again next year. Moving from place to place. Living out in the desert. A life unpredictable, hard and lonely. Now in the land of honey you risk loosing site on your need for God and also that is where the invading armies pass through. The question is not "will disaster come" but "When will it come" While in the land of milk you are always dependent of God and you are safe from the invading armies. The pagans try to appease the gods of honey to bless them and the gods of milk to leave them alone. The God of the Bible claims to be the God of Milk and Honey. A God of the predictable, easy and exciting times but also of the unpredictable, hard and lonely times. God is with us despite having to allow evil to play out. He knows our pains and fears. He offers healing.

I found the article fascinating! Is there any information available on what time of year the Roman censuses were taken? That would be a good clue as to the time of year for the nativity...

While I still feel the same, I came on too strong and do apologize to all for that part of my last comment. Or at least for the unChristlike feelings I had.

In one of EGW's books, she asks "Why Is There Sin". If I remember it correctly, I believe her conclusion was that there is NO reason (excuse) for sin. Man chose sin for no logical reason whatsoever except self engrandizement. I believe there is pain, sickness, and suffering in the world because of: 1. Who is the current ruler of the air (satan); and he LOVES to see humans suffer! 2. Man's inhumanity to man. God kinda self-limits Himself here; He gave man a free will; and when men by there free will choose to do evi, there will be collateral damage. I have no answer for why God allows evil and suffering to continue; but I also have evry faith that He will bring it to an abrupt end sometime soon; just like He ended suffering every place He went when He was here the first time. But He did promise us that suffering and persecution would come; and that the sun shimes an rain pours on both the good and the evil. My heart and prayers go out to you who are suffering physical or emotional pain - especially this time of year. I pray that God either grant you healing from your pain or grant you the sustaining faith the praise Him in spite of your pain as your witness to the world.

Part 5 We now come to the 1950s and the book Questions on Doctrine [QOD]. This book is far from perfect. For example when asked about the nature of Jesus they gave a half answer. The contributors were taken off guard. By this time we had taken the traditional view of the nature of Jesus. That he had his own unique nature unlike Adam before the fall or us after the fall. If they replied "There were questions about the trinity but as we came to embrace the trinity more we came to hold the traditional view on the nature of Christ" and let them read Mrs. White's quotes and the books she was quoting from all would have been well. Sadly, and maybe wanting to avoid the anti-trinity views that was popular at one time and still held by some our members the contributors emphasized the divinity of Christ at the expense of his humanity. A Methodist archaeologist who I studied with and quote a lot, Dr. Jim Fleming tells about interviewing for a job with a church. They worried about higher criticism wanted to know if he saw Jesus as God. While Fleming agreed with them, he pointed out that they were asking only half the message about who Jesus is and reminded them to the traditional view. They people apologized to him and realized that they only had half of what we need to believe in the question. Like Fleming, Elder Andresen pointed out that the contributors to QOD only gave a half answer. Unlike Fleming where both parties understood that only a part answer was given, we split the truth with in Adventism. A number of people took Andresen's missing half and separated it from the half that was in QOD and made the missing half the whole truth. And we have people who have taken the views of people like Elder's Washburn and Wilkinson. filtered it through the book Questions on Doctrine to remove anything from their thoughts that might sound vaguely like QOD. (a spirit of "If QOD says it, then I don't believe it and that settles it for me) with ideas that had developed from the 1920s and 30s that I have been discussing. This became the so called "Historic Adventist movement" (and it is not the only version of true historic Adventism but one branch) This is the school of thought that Joe Crews, Dennis Priebe, William Fagal, P. Gerard Damsteegt, and Elder Kirkpatrick (at least 10 years ago) agree with. I am not familiar with Jim Brackett, C. Mervyn Maxwell and Elder Douglass are more mainline but have some points in common with. And while I need to learn the differences this is where Elder Kirkpatrick's Last Generation movement came from. They are wrong on the nature of Christ. They want to have him have a full sinful nature just like ours and for him to be our example in overcoming. They see the ideal as a fundamentalist with all the don't that developed in the 1920s to 40s, who are ignorant of Shakespeare, the circus, reads only things that really happened and not Moby Dick, They see the last generation perfection as greater than any generation before. They are looking for a different quality than ever before. They have a very Greek view of perfection very static. Unfortunately this approach can cause us to use religion to feed the sinful nature. That we can end up esteeming our selves more highly than others. To see the good news as I'm a part of the chosen few while the church is going to hell in a hand basket. They see a hierarchy were everyone has their place and role that they are to fulfill and not try to get higher than they think you should be. They use religion to shut away the outside world. Meanwhile, Mrs. White pictures a very Hebrew view of perfection. A dynamic. A perfection that is expected at it's state of growth. Mrs. White pictures all generations as having some who become so settled into the truth that nothing can shake them. Some have noticed that when she describes perfection that she seems to be describing John Wesley. Her view of last generation perfection is that a larger quantity of people will reach what only a few in previous generations have reached. People like Joseph and Job and Daniel. People who were part of the world but went for respect and to love the world as Jesus has loved it and to choose against letting our sinful nature control us. Knowing our sinful nature to death. To care more for others. To treat others the way Jesus did, to become like the one beloved of women. I hope this helps.

WHY do people refuse to believe God exists, or reject belief in God? That's assuming they have encountered some evidence for His existence, or heard some testimony from a believer. 1. They want to do something which God has forbidden. It's easier to keep doing what is forbidden, IF you don't believe HE exists. 2. They were taught from childhood that there is no God, or were convinced by college professors that "science" is irrefutable, and confirms evolution. 3. A Christian (so called) acted in a manner which caused one terrible pain, either emotional or physical. 4. They witnessed horrendous suffering - of "innocent" people, after hearing of God's love and His omnipotence. 5. They were worn down by chronic pain, after hearing all those Bible promises of comfort and healing. If we understand WHAT turns people away, we may be able to amend our own behavior, or our preaching, so as to "save some".

I can imagine the City streets being much wider than this, but maybe covered and lined by trees like this. (That would darken the street just enough that you could maybe see the street GLOW with the light from the Throne. And have you ever wondered what kind of "mansion" or "room" Jesus is preparing for you? We know He is making one just right for each of us, but we also know it will not likely be "stick- built" as our homes are today. And when people are in a office, the best place is an office with a view, right? What if He is making a special plant that has mansions all along the edge of each leaf, some down low to the ground, and some up high? Imagine what it would be like living along the edge of a leaf like this, overlooking the whole City! In fact, what if the whole leaf was transparent? (There would be no fear of death or injury, so you could just enjoy the view while totally trusting Jesus.)

"I pray we will be ready when He comes!" Do you love the Lord with all your heart? Is Jesus both your Lord and your Savior? Do you have a relationship with Him? Then you're ready! God is much more interested in your attitude and your destiny that He is in your "sin management" and history. whbae, Just cuz Uriah Smith talks about a sea doesn't make it so. He's just a man. If God's word says there ain't no sea, there aint no sea.

I can imagine a great city 1500 miles on each side; but 1500 miles high? I'm not sure about that - seems like it would make the earth wobble. But it doesn't matter what I think about the city right now; what matters to me right now is getting there! Even though I can't wrap my head around it, I can't wait to get there! The older I get, the more I covet the energy of my youth. I can't wait to have that (and more!) given back to me.