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Green: Many parents have children w ho have departed f rom their upbringing and may even rejected the parent. But, many of those parents still consider them to be their children. They hope for a return. I was created by God and sustained in life today by the power of God. I will remain God's creation and therefore child to the final end, even if I chose to depart eternally form the home that God wants to welcome me into. It will be my choice as to whether or not I chose to spend eternity with God. But regardless of how I chose, I will be God's child even if eternally in death. The same applies to you, Green. As a child of God, I have a responsibility to respect and treat you as such, even when I may disagree with your doctrinal positions and/or your life style. You may be a family member estranged and that may be due to your choice. But you and I share a creation by God and in addition we share the sustaining life that God gives us. WE are brothers, even if estranged and God is our Father.

Club Adventist is as it's descriptive emblematic picture of being alone with an empty seat glowing with accompaniment from above. It's the last link to human spiritual communities for many. The new practice or regulation of non-qouting has improved Club Adventist a lot from diehard endless circling exchanges. I hope many more are blessed by Club Adventist.

If we return to the texts in Romans, I would note that assuming that 'natural' means 'straight' is a flawed argument, since many animal species as well as all human cultures display homosexual behaviour. Defining 'natural' as effectively meaning 'the norm' or 'what is the case for the majority' defines all difference as deficit... and we're back with redheads and lefthanders being looked at with suspicion. It does seem from these texts as though Paul does regard homosexual behaviour on the part of either sex as a consequence of sin and apostasy. I think perhaps we stipulate that that is indeed what those texts mean and move on to the remaining ones?

She is breathing again!

There is a conflict, really, this makes light of it. but there is a serious conflict, really.

hch, I don't know if you see it but you are contradicting yourself continually. I think you might simply be confused or blinded by your commitment to your theory. But you're not using your reasoning faculties at all. You say that the Roman Empire fell when it divided (395) (which it didn't actually, not even the Western half), but that contradicts what you said when you said it fell in 476! And then you go on to talk over and over about the Eastern Roman Emperor, which you said made surrogates after 508. He was a Roman emperor. Obviously of the Roman Empire! What else would he be emperor of? And this would prove that the Roman Empire didn't fall in 476. Don't you see, you yourself are saying that the Roman Empire existed even after 508 contradicting your own claims that it fell earlier, but supportiing my premise that the Roman Empire continued on in the Eastern Roman Empire. This lasted all the way to 1453. This was when it truly ended, which was executed by Sultan Mehmed II The Conqueror of the Islamic Ottoman Empire. Thus, from what you say yourself, my premise is verified. Surely you can see that from your own words you already agree with my proposition. Your choice to refuse the natural conclusion is up to you, but I think my case can safely be put to rest. God bless

The Papal Antichrist: The Most Unlikely Scenario Joe is exactly spot on. And here’s where I want to ask anyone who believes in a Papal Antichrist a very simple question: What evidence at present do you have, that will make the scenario of the Pope taking over the world in any way plausible? In other words, what actual steps in the real world have been taken by the Papacy to ensure such a scenario plays out? The reason I ask is because in the real world, as any historian knows, such a conquest is determined by brutality, violence, as well as economic, political and military power. Is there anything that the Pope is now doing, or has recently done, that is akin to this? He might be a likeable character (I personally like him!), but his ailing condition and his call for world peace (amongst many other social and environmental calls for reform) are hardly the ingredients for world conquest. When was the last time you heard of a conqueror who became a conqueror through ailments and talking of world peace? Even Vladimir Putin looks a more respectable Antichrist candidate than the Pope, although of course I don’t believe he is the Antichrist (incidentally, I do believe in Russia’s political and military power in the world, its encroaching power plays, and its effect on history, Europe and the Middle East – I just don’t think he’s the one the Bible is naming the Antichrist given the criteria, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t believe he is one of the important players in world events – good or bad). I once listened to speaker Hal Meyer, one of the founders of the Hartland Institute, a conservative Adventist seminary/college in the United States, on his visit to London. He was a profound speaker, a moving speaker, and one that electrified the congregation. I was deeply moved, and my spirit was on fire. He spoke like I believed since I did not hear any local pastor speaking in the same way, but which I longed to. He talked about end-time events like it was free-flowing water, but from a huge gorge. He sounded like Ellen White wrote! And he promised to give a full talk in the afternoon on the political manoeuvrings and power plays that were being made which were allegedly bringing the Papal Antichrist scenario to fruition (at this point, I was very much a believer in the Papal Antichrist since I was a very staunch conservative). He led us on with a lot of end-time rhetoric that continued to stir us profoundly (the atmosphere was palpable and the ‘amens’ couldn’t cease). But by the time he got to telling us about all those so-called political Papal power plays, by the time he got to the end of it, he says it was all a dud effectively. It’s not happening. I was deeply disappointed. Disappointed that the Papal Antichrist wasn’t happening, and disappointed to be told that it was, only to be told later that it wasn’t. Of course, I no longer believe that and most other things that I was raised to believe. But my reason for mentioning it is to illustrate something that will always confront Papal Antichrist believers. No matter how much you believe it, no matter how many times it is said, you will always be short of evidence in the real world. And that is because of one simple reason: because it isn’t actually happening. You can hope it will happen, like I did. But you will have to wait until the Kingdom comes – of course by then it will be too late. The historical and present evidence doesn’t fit. So here’s a word of advice from someone who did believe in it, unreservedly: start with the evidence first and then build to a conclusion; do not start with a conclusion and then try to fit everything into it – you will simply find yourself contriving to fit a misrepresentation of the world into a theory, rather than fitting a conclusion to the real world evidence. Here’s a last thought/challenge for you to ponder. If the Pope is the Antichrist, how on earth will he be able to get the 1.6 billion Muslims on this planet to swear allegiance to him or worship him, etc.? How will they be convinced that Jesus is God when that is the most unforgivable sin in Islam, let alone believe that the Pope would be. And they certainly don’t fear him. Why would they when the have huge military prowess, nukes, suicidal and genocidal tendencies, and the promise of virgin paradise? In fact, part of their belief is to take over Rome! Something to think about.

News of Suicide Bombings in Belgium What a grave day for Europe and the West. A grave day. Again. And again. There is no end to the onslaught. Islamic State has struck yet again!!! Absolute chaos in Belgium, with another double suicide bomb attack in the heart of the capital, as the Islamic Caliphate encroaches nearer and nearer to world dominion. And yet the Western world is still sleeping. Sleeping. And that includes Adventists. The planet abounds with atrocities, persecutions of minority groups (Christians, Yazidis) and women, wars, nuclear threat, chemical warfare, global terrorism, cultural and demographic invasion, institutional control of the narrative that is ‘Islam is a religion of peace’, and of which are all perpetrated by the burgeoning Islamic Empire. All the while, state, secular and religious leaders across the planet are crippled by their sheer lack of will to confront the source of the problem, as well as their fear of offending an increasingly hostile Islamic world that is on the offensive. The Power of the Islamic Empire: Past and Present The Islamic civilization is not given the credit they are due. In the past they have been responsible for “the fastest feat of empire building the world has ever seen” (Waldemar Januszczak, The Dark Ages: An Age of Light, ‘The Wonder of Islam,’ (ZCZ, BBC, 2012)). They spawned an empire “far larger than the Roman Empire” (Andrew Marr, History of the World, (BBC, Discovery Channel, Open University, 2012)). They maintained their empire dynasties for 1300 years (622-1924). They even excelled to become “the fear of Europe” (Eugene Rogan, The Ottomans: Europe’s Muslim Emperors, (BBC, 2013)), and masters of the civilised world. Today they are sophisticated, determined, experienced, well-trained, rich, well-financed, armed, powerful, and deadly. Ignoring this reality, this experience, this history, this religious zeal and utter determination, this totalitarian vision and eschatological worldview, will be at the West’s and Christianity’s peril. It is therefore not difficult by any stretch of the imagination to envision a “great falling away” as predicted by Paul (2 Th. 4.3), with so many Christians ever comfortable in their theological armchairs, musing fantasies suited to their own biases, but are unphased by the reality sweeping the planet. Many might think that the falling away will be voluntary. Well, since when did despotic totalitarian regimes – like the Nazis or the Communists – make submission voluntary? Especially ones like Saudi Wahhabism, Islamic State, the Iranian Revolution, and the Neo-Ottoman Turkish regime of Recep Tayyip Erdogan? They don’t ask. They just force upon pain of imprisonment, torture or death. Islamists have already implanted themselves all over the Western world in an ever-growing list of governmental, social and cultural institutions, even at the highest levels at the highest organizations (the United Nations through the O.I.C. (Organisation of Islamic Cooperation), and the Obama Administration (through the Muslim Brotherhood) are but two). The world is ripe for takeover since there are few real voices fighting to tell or facing the truth about the reality facing our planet. And yet, even those few (names like Douglas Murray, Melanie Phillips, Robert Spencer, Geert Wilders, and the like) are drowned out by the majority of deluded political, intellectual, cultural, religious, and media elites. Adventism’s Inability to Stop the Islamic Steamroller Still, yet still, even here on this very discussion, views abound that seem born from the minds of children, out of touch with the actual reality that goes on every day in real life, even today as Brussels gets attacked, and Europe’s Migrant Crisis reaches breaking point, with European leaders now turning to the Neo-Ottoman Sultan of Turkey, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, for salvation. Those who don’t face this Islamic juggernaut will be simply swept away. I’ve personally seen how powerful the Islamic bulldozer is even against Adventists. Here in London, I was one of the first members of Adventist Muslim Relations in the South England Conference – the Islamic outreach department of the General Conference – which was gradually being bequeathed to Petras Bahadhur from its former President Gerald Whitehouse. I also helped co-organize some of its early outreach events. I was a strong believer in the department at the time, and was most ardent in helping Petras. Petras himself comes from Pakistan and is all too aware of the dangers and threats of Islam. In fact, he predicted in the early 2000s, that the AMR department will be the most relevant department in the GC. He wasn’t wrong there in the sense that Islam has become the dominant force in geopolitical and religious affairs. And even here, at the heart of AMR’s methodology, training, and outreach events, we were rendered helpless against Islam. The basic motto that went through all training was ‘don’t offend the Muslim.’ No matter what other knowledge was brought to the table this crippling axiom disabled us in everything we did, particularly when speaking about Jesus. And there was no help in telling us how we were to share the core message about Him after being told not to offend Muslims. At one training weekend/week our leaders did not even want to berate Islam when trainees asked such questions about its evil actions – it was those trainees with objections who were berated instead. As they had invited Muslims into the training event, no one could talk openly. Even invited guest speakers who were non-Adventist Christians started to challenge the leaders. One openly corrected them on the mike in the Q&A saying, “You cannot say Islam is from God my friend,” or words to that effect – and that was coming from former Muslims that once persecuted Christians, who converted to Christianity. When we went to a so-called ‘interfaith dialogue’ event (really it’s a one-way conversation), at the Shia Islamic Centre of England, Islamic leaders would rant on about irrelevant topics (like the inferiority of women), and our Adventist leaders would have no real reply, except that we should all work together and respect one another. But on the ground after the talks I could see those very same Islamic speakers challenge our leaders to which there was no real reply. And our leaders thought this was progress. Later, disillusioned with Adventism as a whole, I would leave the department, but would come back for one last time since I heard that the famous debater Jay Smith (famous in the U.K. anyway – although he’s an American paradoxically) would come and give a lecture at the Advent Centre in Central London Church. It was a great lecture by the way. Extremely insightful into Qur’anic vs New Testament manuscripts, the main arguments of Muslims, the answers to them, tackling the person of Jesus with Muslims, and so forth. This is coming from a veteran who virtually lives at a place called ‘Speakers’ Corner’ – this is the famous London spot where everyone can say what they want about anything at all, but to which Muslims have now virtually taken over. At the end of the lecture and as part of the training events of the day, Petras would have us all go along to Speakers’ Corner and debate/discuss with Muslims. ‘That doesn’t seem like a good idea,’ I thought, seeing that real training takes time, and yet these guys would be thrown into the fire after one session! What was going on?! What happened when we got there? Firstly, most Adventists didn’t go anyway. Those that did were not kept together by Petras in an effective group that could support one another. Rather, we were left to our own devices, and scattered, only to be surrounded by organised mobs of Muslim propagators, who were verbally armed, raucous, boisterous, male only (God help the non-Muslim women who tried to reply), amassed in huge numbers, and it was like a verbal slaughter. There wasn’t any real difference we were going to make. One image that stuck in my mind was one youngster who looked like he was surrounded by ravenous wolves. It was literally a crowd, huddled in, where you could not move because it was so tight (yet we were in open park space). They taunted him loudly, laughed like he was part of the entertainment, and while he was able to take it, he made no clear coherent sense, no real arresting thought-through reply that would appeal to any Muslim mind. I too faced staunch opposition, debating one man after another, only to be finally faced with their ultimate weapon – a former Christian. That was something I wasn’t prepared for, and I finally lost my cool, being incensed at the arguments I didn’t anticipate and the audacity of his betrayal. From a distance I saw Petras also struggling, seemingly bewildered in the overwhelming crowd. Basically, they won the day, as with every day. And whilst you might think that doesn’t matter to God, it does matter to the many who watch on, and are converted or convinced by the power of Islam, and that indeed does matter to God. The Final Verdict A few things I came away with. They knew how to defeat Christianity’s core claims. Adventists/Christians didn’t know how to defend it. The battlefield was taken by them. And their boldness, their forcefulness, their sheer power, and strength of numbers won the day, and is winning many young people everyday in Britain, and across Europe, because there simply is no reply by-in-large from the Christian world. There are many steps to world conquest. Indoctrination is the first. And they are good at it. Combined with having the win of numbers demographically in the West and against Christianity, they will eventually not need to persuade anyone. There will only remain two options: ‘convert or die’. And world events, including the Belgium suicide bombings, the German sexual crimes, the Paris slaughter, the Tunisian tourist attacks, the Russian airplane downing, the Global Persecution of Christian on an unprecedented unfathomable scale, are already telling us that this is happening. Wake up Adventist world. Your theological worldviews are out-of-date. The Islamic Antichrist is already taking over. Open your eyes. I would normally say before it’s too late. But It’s already becoming too late.

'Natural' is not a helpful term at all, in my opinion. It would be very interesting to know what the Greek word used here is and means - I'll go for a dig. Why is 'natural' unhelpful? Because it too easily encapsulates our prejudices. A couple of generations ago plenty of Christians were arguing that interracial marriage was 'unnatural'.

How The Wanderer I had to read your post to me a few times. I don't know who loves GOD or not What I do know is what love for others as for self does look like. Treating others as better than self. The Golden Rule applied in heart looking unto others Basically Addressing the Christian culture that blocks JESUS. Which is more evil and less understood than Homosexuality. My post to Kevin(wrx) was responding to his post as I have said before. And I subsequently elaborated with the same experiences that mirror his post.. that is all..If you follow the posts timeline and occurrence. A lot of mis communication of reading posts that seem to be isolated is not the case. But where the minds go when reading others thoughts (and ummm.....posting those thoughts) If my posts are upsetting to you so much that you will feel the need to tell me what I should say or not say many times....then Know this.. I will share what I share. You can ignore me ..I will not take offense. May the Joy of the LORD be your Strength THE WANDERER! . This is not a black or white issue with me..its a rainbow of colours dealing with direct Issues that affect me and we see it differently why surprised? #i might even post a recipe for fritters that has nothing to do with the OP Don't tempt me!

This takes me right back to the old fear: if I was rock-climbing and missed my grip and swore as I fell to my death, and didn't have time to pray for forgiveness before I hit the rocks below, I would be lost despite fervently seeking and choosing to be saved. You're right, though, we're off the track for this one and it's probably a new thread for Theology forum.

Maybe you should open a separate thread on this, as it appears it may require more depth of study than a few short posts can bring out. However, essentially, anyone sinning is not at that moment a child of God. With repentance and confession, God justifies us and we again become His children. God sanctifies His children to have hearts that eventually desire only to do what is right. Even when they have ceased sinning, however, they will not realize it, but will be distrustful of self and feel unworthy still. This is as I understand at present, and I continue to learn more as I study.

I have not claimed to never sin. I have simply shown that the Bible says God's children do not sin. If one wishes to be a child of God, one must "receive" God into the heart and life, and how can one then sin if God abides in him or her? God would never, never sin! In order for any of us to sin, we must reject God's abiding presence first.

Anyone who claims to never sin - which is what you seem to be claiming - is, I would argue, failing to identify some of his/her own sins, of omission as well as commission. I don't treat EGW as gospel but she did say that as we come closer to Jesus we become more aware of our own sinfulness and imperfection. The logical inverse for someone who claims to be perfect is...

1. Who, names please, is not a sinner. 2. Breaking the commandments, sinner. 3. According to your interpretation, no one is a child of God.

whatever POTUS happens to be in the driver's seat will take credit for all the good that happens on his watch... but seldom does one take responsibility when things go wrong...

Forget the topic.......i just want to enjoy that line for a bit........

Lazarus, you've been my friend for lo these many years, here on C/A. But just how do you [or anyone else] think the president alone has the power to control mortgage backed securities, drone strikes, the TPP, etc., etc. In our democratic system the president only has power to present ideas; the congress is the body which makes the laws. We can't blame Obama for all the bad things which are present in our society.

Grandkids are the BEST!!

I love my family.

Evil is a very strong word...I choose to vote for the person who embodies what I believe would be best for the country. Ain't no one perfect...by far, even me!

Contrary to what's been said here earlier, I DO like Barack Obama. I think history will show that he has been one of our best, most level-headed presidents. Now, with the GOP continuing to shoot itself in the foot, I have no problem voting for Hillary. She's smart; she has experience in government; she can do the job. I'm no feminist, but it's actually about time the USA has a female president [many years later than the other leading countries of this world].

I know it's true!

I joined at the invitation of one of the moderators, who read my posts on another forum. I too was about to jump ship because of the hypocrisy I perceived at all levels of the church; and the problems I had with some of the "cultural" interpretations of the 28 Fundies. A very kind and concerned member of this forum took the time to go through each of the Fundies with me as posted on the official church website. I couldn't find any fault in the way they were actually stated, so I postponed leaving. As I started posting more, I found some wonderful, smart, open-minded people here; as well as those who believe differently than I do. The ones that have mastered the art of disagreeing without being disagreeable have inspired me to study more. I still have issues with the way some of the more traditional folks see things; but I'm sure there are those that have issues with my viewpoint. As long as the differences of opinion inspire spirited conversation and deeper study, that's a good thing IMHO. This actually has sorta become my home church. I spend more time with CA than I do my local congregation. I am blessed to be here.