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You smoke? Sorry. You can’t be in my church. You’re an alcoholic? Sorry. You can’t be in my church. You’re a drug addict? Sorry. You can’t be in my church. You’re a “fornicator”? Sorry. You can’t be in my church. You’re gay? Sorry. You can’t be in my church. You’re a glutton? Sure. You can be in my church. You’re a gossip? Sure. You can be in my church. You’re a liar? Sure. You can be in my church. You’re an adulterer? Sure. You can be in my church. You steal? Sure. You can be in my church. You’re a tax dodger? Sure. You can be in my church. You’re a snob? Sure. You can be in my church. You’re an underhanded business person? Sure. You can be in my church. You’re egotistical? Sure. You can be in my church. You’re judgmental? Sure. You can be in my church. You’re a bigot? Sure. You can be in my church. You’re a complainer? Sure. You can be in my church. You're a backbiter? Sure. You can be in my church. You’re a Bible thumper? Sure. You can be in my church. You’re poor? Well. I guess you can be in my church. Just don’t sit by me. You have mental health issues? Well. I guess you can be in my church. Just don't sit by me. You’re dirty? Well. I guess you can be in my church. Just don’t sit by me. ****************** The above is the message that could be gleaned from reading some of the recent threads on the forum. Is that really how we want to portray our church?

Pam, It is so sad how often we miss what is happening all around us because of a desire to cast out 'sin' from the church. My life would never stand up to what I believe in, that is why a personal belief is so important rather than a corporate belief. As one gets older, I just retired, I realize that what I 'know' and what I can 'control' is more and more limited. Clouding my mind with what others or the church should do loses its importance. What I do with the rest of my life and how I treat others around me, in the world and in the church has become most important. Living up to what I personally believe is hard enough with out looking at others. I have learned that enjoying life is so much easier w/o all the 'sin pointing' or wondering about, that the people I enjoy knowing and being around is much broader. God is in control and only He know a persons heart, so who am I to suggest what is 'right' for someone else. Christ always talked about 2 commands, love for God and equally love for others. That is what His life on this earth was all about. It works for me. (Off my soap box)

I think here Jesus is our example, Gail. The sinners flocked around Christ, but the self-righteous stood at a distance. But we shouldn't confuse Christ's love of sinners with His acceptance of sin as a lifestyle, whatever that sin may be. E.G., Jesus saved the woman caught in adultery from the self-righteous Pharisees, but He also directed her to leave her life of adultery.

They are non ending no resolve and destroying the community feel

And Jesus is still doing that... Sometimes people want to do that job for Him.

If this thread was to be specifically geared at homosexuality, I would have placed it under that subforum. It's *not* specifically about homosexuality, though it appears some would like to make it so. What's interesting to me is that the basis of the OP was from observations of a very conservative Baptist minister friend who I asked to review the tenor of the forum in general and to give me feedback. I wanted to get the opinion of a non-SDA who would be sympathetic to the conservative members, and to make sure that I wasn't being off in my own observations as to how many current threads might appear to "outsiders."

It's dangerous to try to fit Bible prophecy into earthly events. "For at such a time as YE KNOW NOT, the Son of Man comes."

It can be flipped, true, but who are the ones who are called by Jesus to take up their cross daily? The Christians are to have persecution and "count it all joy". This world is not our home. If the bakers stood up for their beliefs and were persecuted for them then their reward is waiting for them. Those who oppress have no such reward from whatever side they are on. If they are without Christ then this world is the best they will ever have. And even then we are to treat them well, for we are to love even our enemies.

Henry, at this pace, you will run out of time within Obama's term as president. Just get to the point of explaining how you see how anything in Daniel the connects to Obama's term as president. You have boldly predicted that Christ will return while Obama is president. What makes you believe that? If Daniel give a clue that leads to that specific of a prediction, it should be more than a hunch or rank speculation.

What do you say to a brother or sister in Christ who says the Adventist church has apostatized, and feel what is being taught in many Adventist churches and schools today are full of evolution, spiritual formation, ecumenism into the power of the Papacy, and the SOP taken away and replaced with mans empty philosophy or popular authors full of deception.

Sunday Blue laws simply restrict the hours that a business can conduct business or do work. They do nothing else. At lest in the experience of the United states of America. Yes, some of us have seen them in action. As a congregational pastor, I once had a physician who had Sunday hours as a regular practice. Under the Sunday Blue law of that State, the police attempted to arrest him and charge him with a crime. The end result was that he closed his office on Sunday (after some litigation). Christians are expected to comply with civil law and it is not a violation of God's law to refrain from doing commercial business on Sunday. Any suggestions that closing a business on Sunday, in compliance with civil law is to receive the Mark of the Beast reflects a doctrinal view that in not supported by the Bible, EGW, the teachings of the SDA Church. Certainly citizens may challenge the law that forces them to close on Sunday, but they must be prepared to accept the consequences of doing so. The above post is in responne to Kevin (wrx) asking:

Hi Pam! I didn't think it was about gays ..per say. I thought my own personal experiences with three sins I mentioned i saw listed in the OP. Fornication Smoking Homosexuality I have been guilty of all three and have stopped doing all three. I always bring my experiences to the discussion. I am not smart enough to debate but I always look for a chance to share. BTW there are others sins listed in the OP that I didn't share about. I stopped at three! ....You can delete me so not to derail! Sorry!

Let's assume for a moment that "Babylon" (the mother of harlots) was the BEGINNING of all false worship - the worship of demons. Every false system of worship therefore came from Babylon. NAU Genesis 10:7 The sons of Cush were Seba and Havilah and Sabtah and Raamah and Sabteca; and the sons of Raamah were Sheba and Dedan. 8 Now Cush became the father of Nimrod; he became a mighty one on the earth. 9 He was a mighty hunter before (against) the LORD; therefore it is said, "Like Nimrod a mighty hunter before the LORD." 10 The beginning of his kingdom was Babel and Erech and Accad and Calneh, in the land of Shinar. (Gen 10:7 NAU) Nimrod ruled a kingdom which grew to control the "land of Shinar". Babel (or Babylon) means "confusion by mixing". Nimrod mixed the true worship of Yahweh, with the false worship of demons. This false worship SPREAD to all the earth. It took slightly different forms and names, because of the different languages, but it was essentially the SAME false worship. Even Islam mixes pagan elements, and demon worship with the true worship of Yahweh. (Else why the pilgrimage to march around a meteorite?) Revelation 9:20 "The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so as not to worship demons" (NAU) Why label the Catholic Church as the ONLY perversion of true worship? Is it because she specifically perverted Christian worship, essentially baptizing pagan practice with Christian names. She changed the commandments. She changed the "appointed times" (Feasts). She put the names of Bible saints (especially Mary) on pagan gods, and made images for worship. She continued celibate "priests" (just like the eunuchs of old) and "nuns" to administer her doctrines ( so they could not own any property to leave to any heirs). They elevated one man (as Father - high priest) to speak for God to them. I understand WHY many label the Catholic Church as the harlot of Revelation. I'm just thinking that "the harlot" of Revelation is much more than just the Catholic Church. It is a worldwide SYSTEM of FALSE WORSHIP, embracing all false worship. Of course "catholic" does mean "universal". The BEAST has 7 "heads". The "heads" all have "a blasphemous name". Revelation 13:1 "Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name." (NKJ) The "horns" are the enforcers. The "heads" teach false worship - blasphemy. The "harlot" rides this BEAST. I see a SYSTEM in the last days, whereby all religions of the world come together to make peace - (anything to end war). It is decreed that no one may speak ill of any religion, or try to pull away converts from any religion. That would cut out a lot of teaching from the Bible. We see it today as "political correctness". It is a way to homogenize religion and worship - to bring it all back into ONE BIG SYSTEM.

Where exactly, does Daniel say that the "time of the end" BEGINS AFTER 1260 days??? Personally, I believe "the time of the end" BEGINS at the start of the 1260 days. Why? BECAUSE the 1260 days lead up to the pronouncement of judgment in heaven, that the kingdom is given to Christ and His saints, and "the time came" for the saints to take possession of the kingdom. Daniel 7:21-22 The "horn was making war against the saints . . UNTIL the Ancient of Days came (to the judgment scene Dan 7:9-10) and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and THE TIME CAME for the saints to possess the kingdom." The "horn" makes war against the saints for "a time, times, and half a time". (Dan 7:25) "A time, times, and half a time" EQUALS 1260 days. 1260 days is the LAST TIME PERIOD before Jesus returns. It is "the time of the END", the time leading TO the END. ------------------- In Revelation 13 "the beast" - (NOT the "harlot") - "was given authority to continue for forty-two months". But the BEAST is not "the harlot". In the SDA scenario, the Catholic Church is "the harlot", and she persecuted the saints for 1260 years (til 1798 "deadly wound"). But the passage says the BEAST does the persecuting. Who is the BEAST in the SDA scenario? Are you saying that "the BEAST" and "the harlot" are BOTH the Catholic Church?

The American political season is in full swing with the 2016 Presidential campaign underway. This has been an especially unusual election cycle, given that one of our own was running this year in Dr. Ben Carson. His recent exit from the race left some Adventists breathing a sigh of relief, while others in dismay. As the field narrows, and November 8 moves closer with each passing day, what are Adventist Christians to do? Here are three general principles to keep your faith and sanity while following this election: 1. Avoid unreservedly endorsing a particular candidate or party. According to the latest findings from the Pew Research Center, 35% of Adventists identify or lean towards Republican party ideals, 45% lean towards the Democratic side, and 19% consider themselves independent. Something inside me cringes when I hear statements like “Republicans are destroying our nation” or “Liberals are taking our country to hell in a hand basket.” Adventists should not be unapologetically Democrat or Republican. The danger with unreservedly endorsing a candidate or any party as a Christian is believing that the solutions to this world’s problems will be solved by the election of human beings of a particular party into political office. While Fox News and MSNBC might disagree with this idea, the Bible and Ellen White back it up quite well. King Nebuchadnezzar’s dream in Daniel 2 (well-known to Adventists) tells us that what comes next in the timeline of Bible prophecy is the Kingdom of Christ, not a Republican or Democratic utopia. Ellen White also spoke about the danger of partisanship when she said: “There is fraud on both sides” she wrote in a “special testimony” sent from Australia to the General Conference session of 1897…Thus, she urged those for whom the Lord Jesus is “the Captain” to “file under his banner” and avoid “linking up with either party.” Adventists, she wrote two years later, have their “citizenship…in heaven…they are to stand as subjects of Christ’s kingdom, bearing the banner which is inscribed, ‘The commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.’” Ellen G. White Encyclopedia, pg. 1038 2. If you absolutely must, speak to issues of justice and injustice. Because all political parties are made up of broken people, we need to remember that, as believers, Christ doesn’t pick sides with anyone. Interestingly enough, in her day, “Ellen White became a fervent advocate of ‘movement politics’ – discriminating involvement in the political process on behalf of benevolent reform in contrast to partisan politics centering on advancing the power of a political party.” -EGW Encyclopedia pg. 1037 Are there moral issues that need addressing in our day? Of course. Yet, it is a sad reality that the political arena pits, for example, pro-life causes against each other. While they each have their flaws, Democrats are stereotypically seen as the party that “kills babies” and Republicans are seen as the party that “hates minorities and immigrant rights.” One writer wondered, “Why this tension between two groups fighting for human dignity? I think much of it is owed to our increasingly tribal and fractured culture.” Still, there are moral issues of justice and injustice to be faced and the Bible speaks firmly against the suppression of human rights. One interesting anecdotal detail is that the early Adventist church made matters of justice and injustice a top priority. In conversation with Bill Knott, editor of the Adventist Review, he mentioned that early in its history, writers in the Review and Herald on occasion called out politicians directly, even by name. The reason for this was that Adventism saw itself as a counter-cultural movement, not encumbered by political partisanship (or endangering its non-profit 501(c)(3) status, but that’s another matter altogether). Speaking up on matters of social justice include voicing concerns when politicians disparage entire people groups like the handicapped, immigrants, religious groups, and women. So, although I could have easily made an equally lengthy article against any of the candidates, I spoke openly against Donald Trump because, like Ellen White, I believe that we must push for “a government that protects, restores, relieves, but never savers of oppression.” Jesus said that we can’t read anyone’s heart, but we can get a good idea of where it lies by noticing the pattern of someone’s words and actions. “The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.” -Luke 6:45 Still, there is a danger in both staying completely silent and being overbearing when it comes to politics. No one, especially pastors, should spend an inordinate amount of time studying, discussing, or posting about politics when there are other matters to attend. Ellen White went so far as to say: “The tithe should not be sued to pay anyone for speechifying on political questions,” and any “teacher, minister, or leader in our ranks who is stirred with a desire to ventilate his opinions on political questions” must either “be converted” or give up working for the church, along with any credentials. -EGW Encyclopedia pg. 1039 3. Regardless of the outcome, follow and point people to Jesus. In what is sure to descend into further madness leading to Election Day, Christ followers must stay above the fray. We must not believe the party narrative where the solution to the problems in this country is for “political correctness to go away” like Trump would advocate. The Bible explicitly counsels against this kind of unrestrained speech: “He who restrains his words has knowledge, and he who has a cool spirit is a man of understanding.” Proverbs 17:27 On the other side, we must also not believe that the church must exclusively work through the expansion of government social programs in order to impact the world. After all, the early church took more of a radical approach to personal possessions than even the Bernie Sanders campaign: “And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own, but all things were common property to them.” Acts 4:32 People may have different interpretations about whether the above lifestyle is doable in a secular society, but the fact remains that it at least was possible in the early Christian community. To speak practically on one issue here as a Millennial pastor, while Bernie Sanders has a strong following of support from this generation, I have to ask myself if Millennials are more enamored with the idea of a church engaging in social justice than actually joining one to do it? This is a term that’s been labeled “slacktivism.” Regardless of who wins, Christians who voted for a particular party or candidate will still have issues to work through. The issues that divide people today will still exist after the election. We must remember that, at the end of the day, we are going to have to work and interact with people who believe differently than we do, religiously, philosophically, existentially, and yes, politically. So, in this election cycle, yes, make your vote count; don’t stay home on November 8, 2016. Yet, don’t put all of your eggs in one basket; you may be disappointed when you realize your vote doesn’t usher in the Millennium. Focus on issues, don’t vote based on emotion or popular opinion, and remember that regardless of who is sworn in next, the Rock is still barreling towards the feet of Nebuchadnezzar’s statue. Until then, in matters of political and civil discourse, let’s remember the to follow the advice of Jesus’ own brother James: “So then, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath.” James 1:9 View the full article

Read More Daily Jesus Scripture: Romans 12:2-3 Starting Question: Have you ever been too proud to listen to someone’s advice? How did that story in your life finish? Facing Yourself ** Continued from Revenge vs Respect yesterday ** When Naaman arrived at the prophet’s door—a moment he had been imagining and anticipating with every step of the journey—he was devastated by the brazen reception he received. The prophet refused to come to the door. He wouldn’t even speak to Naaman through the door. Clearly, Naaman thought, I am too unclean to even be spoken too by this holy man. His disappointment turned to anger when a servant came out with a message from Elisha: “Go and wash yourself seven times in the Jordan River. Then your skin will be restored, and you will be healed of your leprosy.” Naaman’s ultimate moment of testing had arrived. He was a man of protocol and procedure. He was respectable and expected to be treated as such. Naaman was irate. He began to lash out, “I thought he would certainly come out to meet me! I expected him to wave his hand over the leprosy and call on the name of the Lord his God and heal me!” Naaman took the Prophet’s message and abrupt dismissal as a direct insult. Of all the things he had imagined about meeting a miracle-working prophet, he had never considered he would be refused an audience and told to go take a bath. He got on his horse, turned toward home, and whipped his steed into a frenzy, galloping away from the most embarrassing situation he had ever faced. As he furiously rode, he may have escaped the prophet’s land he couldn’t escape the prophet’s words. Do I look like I need a bath? Am I dirty? Naaman fumed to himself. How many rivers do we have at home that put this muddy Jordan to shame?!? If I want to wash, I’ll wash in a clean river! Finally, as his horse began to tire, Naaman slowed. His men caught up and rode along side him. Hardened men of war, they had fought many battles together. They loved their commander but were uncomfortable with his decision to flee from the prophet’s command. Naaman’s men challenged him to consider the possibility of what the Prophet had said—what if it works? Why not wash and see? “Sir, if the prophet had told you to do something very difficult, wouldn’t you have done it? So you should certainly obey him when he says simply, ‘Go and wash and be cured!’” Reflection Question: Can you think of a time when you gave in, humbled yourself, and saw good things happen because of your decision? How did that experience shape you? ** Continued in Naked Pride tomorrow ** Prayer time: Before you pray together, ask: What would you like to say to Jesus today?View the full article

Well, in my opinion, the description rudywoofs gives is exactly the experience a visitor would receive in the local church I attended--with one exception: an adulterer is welcome in the church, but only after everyone knows about it, a change of heart is evident and a baptism (or re-baptism) occurs (and even then, the adulterer is only welcomed back in name--he/she will never be accepted as "one of their own"). The OP reflects well the opinion some people have regarding the posts here at ClubAdventist. This site is a global gathering of the locals, what we do and say here reflect what's happening in the local churches. "Is this really how we want to portray our church?"

Gail, you tried! Obviously it is not how we treat others, all others..... but about the sins of others.

Well,each incident that has involved gays/lesbians and christian businesses have had the businesses criticized for trying to deny civil rights to gays /lesbians. When the woman refused to sign a marriage license for a lesbian couple she was ridiculed and treated with contempt pretty soundly on this forum as well as by the media. After all the life she led prior to being converted was enough proof she was a self righteous hypocrite. The big sin I see here is that those opposed to gay/lesbian lifestyle/gay marriage are judgemental and unloving. Obviously the actions of those that level these accusations and "judgements" have the divine right to do so. If it weren't for those unloving christians that believe it wrong,everything would be right in the homosexual world. Maybe the question could be asked in fairness how do we treat those that believe the bible when it says it is wrong.

I feel strongly both ways on this. The question for this thread could have just as easily been "How do you treat other humans?" On the other hand, there are people on this forum who have treated at least one gay person on this forum with distain. There are also people who have treated the alleged "gay-bashers" with distain. I personally don't think the ageless debate over gays will not be solved on this forum. I personally think the discussion about gays should "die" for a while. It's getting too personal and personally offensive for some people

I realize that there are some Christians who hate gays. This is wrong. And some gays, through legislation. insist that others accept their lifestyle. This is also wrong.

I don't want to see this thread get knocked over into another gays vs bakery debate. The fact is, the bakery didn't abide by the law. If you own a public business, then you must serve the public according to the laws, regardless of someone's sexual orientation. (But the Oregon lesbian couple only pursued the issue to make an example of the bakery. They could easily have gone to another bakery — there are a number of award-winning bakeries that would have been happy for the business.)

Aubrey, good point, I think. But in the trying, results should matter. A number of surveys/studies have suggested rather strongly that Christians aren't succeeding all that well at being so different when it comes to a significant number of ills and defects that plague humanity. We have often heard that the marriage failure rate for example is no better and perhaps a bit worse than the rest of the population. I think there are a number of other social ills with similar statistical results. We as Adventists have mistakenly assumed that our success in overcoming such things should be better with our superior grasp of the Truth, being God's peculiar people and all that. But that is not so. But more to the point of the OP, one would think this a far more simple cause and effect result of living by the creed of the One from whom we derive our religious ID. Love one another. Even our enemies. Turn the other cheek. Go the extra mile. The golden rule. Exercise humility. Be kind. Especially to those who need an act of kindness or that really can't pay it back. This sort of behavior is so much in our control to make it happen. Do we eventually at least miss the mark less often?

Leon, that was a very helpful warning about email-phishing dangers that you posted. Thanks a lot. Personally, I tend to keep myself at a distance here on this Forum. Mostly because of the conflicts of the past hurting so many members causing so many good posters to wander off for more gentler communities. All in all a gender mixed Forum of so-called religious persons gets very aggressive at times. Having been in two different Forum places of exclusively ladies I tend to relax and trust more. The interaction is fun and informative.

I agree with your post, but there is more to it than just that. God is allowing sin to progress to its logical conclusion so that there can never be anyone in the universe who will ever think sin was a good idea. He wants us, and the unfallen worlds, very impressed as to just how evil and destructive sin is. To do anything less is to leave a slight, although even now it's probably miniscule, possibility that sin might rise again. Sin must be over and done with for eternity and God is going to leave no stone unturned in making sure that happens.

I think we have reached that time, look around to see the evidence we have before us...

I would say that your salvation is not dependent upon your chosen denomination; it is dependent upon your relationship with Jesus Christ. All denominations are man-made constructs of what some person or group decided what was "truth" in their own interpretation of scripture. Salvation has nothing to do with getting every single doctrinal point in scripture or the writings of EGW 100% correct. If you are unhappy with mainstrean Adventism, there are plenty of ministries out there that will cater to you - for example - Hope International, Steps to Life, the Reformed SDA Church, Amazing Facts, Messianic Judaism, Shepherd's Rod. You will likely be unhappy with them after a while when you realize their people and organizations are just as flawed as everyone else - just in different ways. Salvation comes from loving and believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and letting His Spirit change you from the inside; and studying the Scripture for guidance into what is right. It does not come from the Adventist (or any other) denomination. It only comes as a free gift (i.e., no strings attached; nothing we "earn") from Jesus Christ.

I have a question: If we believe that the gospel must be preached to all the world for a witness before the return of Christ, what sort of gospel can we preach to those we regard as enemies: "Christ loves you but I don't. I'm afraid of you?" If this is likely, then we treat our enemies as Jonah did Nineveh - we run away and avoid giving them the gospel? Maybe we really don't have enemies but rather alienated brothers and sisters in Christ for whom we must love as Christ did and for whom He died. Alex