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I would also add that most all of the "fact" arguments Green puts forward are basically straw men arguments. The deniers of EGW's ordination also play word games of redefining words to minimize or neutralize anything that does not suit their POV. An example of that is narrowly redefining what they think she must have meant when she used the word "pastor" in reference to women. That is exactly like the traditional denigration of Phoebe. "She was just a servant and helper." But in both cases one has to ignore the immediate context and how the key words are used elsewhere in the time period they were written. The other disingenuous hairsplitting is denying the obvious by saying that EGW was not ordained since there is no evidence of the correct set of humans that uttered ritualistic words over her in a public ceremony whilst laying hands on her head. She herself stated plainly that too much importance was placed on that ritual. There is nothing magical about it that it is the only means by which recognition of a person's gifts can be done by the Church. And that last phrase is precisely what it is all about - recognition by the body of believers, the Church, of the gifts of the person and appointing/dedicating them to do something for the Church. The form of the recognition is quite beside the point. The fact of a public recognition by the Church is the ordination. And the continued issuance of the ordination credentials to EGW by the highest body, signed by its top officers was precisely that. To deny that she was ordained was to accuse those leaders of fraud and falsehood. And the fact ( I am talking of relevant facts now...) that she accepted those credentials year after year without speaking out against them or insisting they stop doing it, speaks volumes. Either she supported the idea or she was a co-conspirator to fraud and deceit of leadership in claiming she was ordained.

Write a check you mean? No thanks, my husband works too hard for me to hand our money over willy-nilly every time someone asks for it. Anyway, it was a joke. I said "woman up" because that's exactly what my mother had to do raising 3 kids on her own. She worked 3 jobs while she went to school and earned a degree in computer science and pulled us up out of poverty. Further, I said "woman up" because my husband does earn enough money for me to stay home and homeschool our kids. (I did so for 9 years.) We survived a year of unemployment in 2011. He finished his degree just a few years ago in a profession I'm sure you would find to be not as masculine as yours. Though we had to go without quite a lot of the luxuries of other people, we were able to pull up our boot straps and do whatever it took to ensure that our children had the care they deserved. In fact, it even meant that I sometimes had to do some of the heavy labor around the house: mowing lawns, fixing plumbing, laying drywall and concrete. Do whatever it takes to have the life you feel compelled to live. Sacrifice as necessary. Repeat until you've the desired results. Sorry to have ruffled your feathers, Rossw. I'm sure you can figure out how to lead your own household.

"You carry matters to extremes and do harm to your own soul and to the truth. YOU MAKE THE TRUTH REPULSIVE AND CAUSE SOULS TO BE AFRAID OF IT. Let love soften your words and give tone to your actions, and you will find a change in those with whom you associate. There will be peace, union, and harmony, instead of strife, jealousy, and discord. Let love and tenderness be exercised, . . . and you will receive a blessing." {2T 439.1}

THE BRONX - Dr. Roscoe Brown Jr., the former president of Bronx Community College and one of the Tuskegee Airmen, has died at age 94. http://bronx.news12.com/news/tuskegee-airman-dr-roscoe-brown-jr-dies-at-94-1.12005962

The continued downgrading of EGW in denial of the obvious and unequivocal documented recognition of her by the Church is a slippery slope eroding confidence in her ministry. It brings to mind the oft repeated phrase of many in the camp of those opposed to women in ministry -

Green said the following which I have quoted below: Green's statement is simply specious on its face. 1) The expectations of an ordained SDA minister are so broad that many of us have not done everything that is expected of them. I have not and I have been a congregational pastor. 2) The expectation of EGW should be referenced in the time in which she lived and not in the time in which we live today. The major expectations that SDA pastors did in the time in which EGW lived were: a) preaching. 'b) evangelism--converting people. c) traveling to Adventist congregations and building them up. Ellen White did all of those. 3) In addition, there were other expectations for some SDA clergy: a) Guiding the developing SDA denomination in its development. 'b) Producing written material for the edification and instruction of members and the conversion of non-members. c) Traveling Internationally to aid and guide in the development of the SDA Church in other countries. d) Providing corrective advice and/or recommending discipline to leaders, clergy and members who had committed wrong. Ellen White did all of these. 4) Yes, it is true that Ellen White did not do some things that are common of SDA clergy today: a) She never baptized anyone. This is also true for some SDA ordained clergy today. The extent to which it was true in the time of EGW is probably not known. 'b) Yes, she is not known to have performed a marriage ceremony. The extent to which this was true of others in the time of EGW is not known to me. However, I personally know of SDA Clergy, in the U.S., today who have never done such. I also know of some countries in which no SDA Clergy person has ever performed a marriage ceremony. 5) Today, the SDA denomination limits the so-called organization of SDA congregations to people who are ordained. EGW probably participated is such in her time. It should be noted that the SDA denomination has identified Ellen White as a "co-founder" of the SDA denomination. On all levels of denominational structure today, organization is accomplished by ordained clergy.

Better find that spoon and start using it... Following the memory wipe, we may all be on equal footing with infants.

Please excuse Rossw & me, Pk. At first reading I thought there was perhaps a connection between the SDA CIA agents and the hash. Thanks for the clarification.

FACT: Ellen White is the ONLY woman in Adventist history to have officially occupied the status of a prophet. FACT: There has never been an Adventist male prophet to be officially recognized by the church. FACT: The church had no official title nor position for "prophet" in its wage scale. FACT: Ellen White, if for no other reason than being Elder James White's widow, deserved to be financially supported by the church. FACT: The church elected to support Ellen White on the same level as that of an ordained minister, and issued the credentials to make this official with them. FACT: Ellen White was never ordained. FACT: Ellen White never pastored a church. FACT: Ellen White never performed a baptism, and never officiated at a wedding ceremony nor a funeral. FACT: Ellen White was never the General Conference president, nor was ever a president of any organization. FACT: Ellen White preached many sermons, in many churches, and at many camp meetings or large gatherings. FACT: Ellen White submitted to her husband's authority. FACT: Ellen White's visions were not "manufactured" by her, but came from God--she was just His "messenger." FACT: If any king, ruler, or leader sends a messenger with a message (e.g. to another leader), the messenger is NOT held in authority over the recipient of that message--the authority figure is the message Sender. FACT: The Bible says plainly that a woman is not to usurp authority over a man. FACT: The Bible's criteria for elders in the church specify a man. Now, if it weren't for all those pesky facts, we could just ordain women as elders and put them in leadership, couldn't we? Why are we still arguing about what _should_ be clear? The Bible is clear. Mrs. White herself is rather clear. The word "pastor" simply means "shepherd." Women have people to whom they may attend and shepherd, just as men do. For example, I am a teacher. Yet I am also a pastor, though I am not listed on the church roles as such. Women must shepherd their children, and they can also minister unto the sick and suffering, and to other women. To these, they are pastors. There is, however, another sense in which they may become pastors: marry one! Does God not say that they twain shall be one flesh? As I interpret, if a woman desires to work as a pastor, she should marry one. His ordination becomes her responsibility as well by extension. They are a team, and must work unitedly toward the purpose of ministering to the flock of God. Her husband, the "ordained minister," will be the team's head, and she would serve him well in working with the women and children of the church, the sick and the suffering, as a hospitalitarian, receiving guests, etc. Women can do much more than many have in this regard. Here is, in fact, some of Mrs. White's guidance for women: "There is a wide field in which our sisters may do good service for the Master in the various branches of the work connected with his cause. Through missionary labor they can reach a class that our ministers cannot. There are noble women who have had moral courage to decide in favor of the truth from the weight of evidence. They have conscientiously accepted the truth. They have tact, perception, and good ability, and will make successful workers for their Master. Christian women are called for. There is work neglected or done imperfectly that could be thoroughly accomplished by the help that sisters can give. There are so many kinds of work too laborious for women, which our brethren are called to engage in, that many branches of missionary work are neglected. Many things connected with different churches are left undone that women, if properly instructed, could attend to. Our sisters might serve as church clerks, and the church business would not be so sadly neglected. There are many other offices connected with the cause of God which our sisters are better qualified to fill than our brethren, and in which they might do efficient service." {RH, December 19, 1878 par. 12} An obvious question surfaces from the above passage: Why can women reach people that ministers cannot if women themselves are called to be ministers? Could women reach people that women could not? Most in the "ordinators" camp would likely seek to avoid the implications of statements like this, but, for those seeking the truth, they cannot be simply laid aside.

Thank you for asking .... Thankfully I am on top of the mountain but very close to the flooding ... like a few miles. Its raining again!!!

This is off topic Kevin, but I think it is incredibly difficult to find a good Christian mate whom shares the same values in this day. I never dated until I found my wife. It was only through miracles we came together. She had just finished a 6 year relationship when we met. Good and bad timing. It was only by God's design we got together. God knows your needs and when the time is right. And like you said of moving from 6th to 7th heads, that creates difficulties in itself. Now way off topic but do you think many will die in preparation leading up to the time of trouble? From my limited observation it seems like families are smaller as if to stream line the family in prep for the end. --not baiting you, really interested in your thoughts.

AMEN

Happy 4th to all! Have a safe and great day. Always remember that God loves us more than we can ever imagine!!

I would be surprised if there arent already dating sites open to all. But lets search for the ones that arent, claim discrimination and sue

The two gay men approached the "greedy lawyers". I doubt that the lawyer dragged them in off the street and forced them to approve the lawsuit. It isnt any different than the bakery lawsuits.

The "God" in the First Angel's Message has changed from what the pioneers of the SDA Church believed and taught to different god. The pioneers defined "God" as "That there is one God, a personal, spiritual being, the creator of all things, omnipotent, omniscient, and eternal, infinite in wisdom, holiness, justice, goodness, truth, and mercy; unchangeable, and everywhere present by his representative, the Holy Spirit. Ps. 139:7." Since 1980, "God" has been defined as " There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three coeternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. God, who is love, is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation."