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As promised earlier in this thread I post the above in response to the post below from Kevin. It is not to slight you Kevin, but as I said in my prior response the above statement made by you is not true. I aplogize for the lengthy quote from "With out fear of Favor" but I believe he accurately states the reason for his trip and his great desire to rightly represent truth and context to his students about E G White and her writings relative to our discussion on this thread. I felt to quote less would be to miss an opportunity to accurately respond to your post Kevin and the reason I disagree with your statement. I also believe the graces of a Christian brother demand this that I say this also: I have seen many times others in defending their Trinitarian position and desiring the strength of reference say the same exact things you said, so I did not and don't necessarily take your words to be your own conclusions but possibly an oft repeated understanding that is out there. I believe that Gregory's comments about references is always a great help to accurate study and growth and in our knowledge of Christ and his teachings and our efforts to understand each other. I have a study on the quote from Desire of ages that I put to gether a number of years ago that might shed some light on her meaning as can be derived from other things she said about Christ, eternal life and how the scripture comments on the use of derived, begotten etc. I will post it if I can find it. I believe that Andreasen himself may not have studied enough her full position on what she said to himself concluded accurately her reason for saying what she did in Desire of ages. I guess what I am trying to say is your beliefs and my beliefs are the some total of how we understand all that comes into our field of life and how we treat it before we accept it as truth. Let us I pray always that we may be as the Bereans were and study to see if it is so. The only difference between the decieved (lost) in the final hour and the saved is the acceptance of truth as it is found in Jesus. Last thought on this for now is condsider what Andreasen did say " a complete revision on my former view, and that of the denomination, on the diety of Christ." Please note he did not say on the nature of Christ or the person of Christ but on the diety of Christ. My research on the historical position of the church and Andreasen have been in reference to the position of both on the understanding of Christ's begottenness and what that meant. The position of many on the side of Trinity past and present is that if Christ was begotten before the world was made of the Father and not just of Mary then he must be created and not devine. This is a typical anti-Arian view point and argument from the days of Nicea in 325, I have had many say of me personally he believes Christ was created and doesn't believe in the holy spirit, all because they accept this false argument. For to be born of the Father is to be all that he is, we are promised eternal life in Christ, a blessing we will receive because we believe in and on the only begotten son of God. His begottenness is his claim to Sonship and thus his inheritance which he has promised to share with all who believe on his name. May God Bless and the bless Sabbath hours approach.

i agree, we automatically make God small enough to fit in our minds. But God emptied himself of all the glory of heaven and made himself small and to become the lowest, that we could find a connection with him as sinners. And then he even became sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. He said learn of me, for i am lowly.

HEY ALL my computer broke then i lost my internet----- but i now have both up and running dgrimm60

Several years back, a SDA congregation was dealing with a number of people who regularly attended its services but were not ready to become SDA members. The congregation wanted to both welcome them and to integrate them into the life and mission of the congregation. As such they were considering how they might do this. As they considered this, I wrote a proposal to establish a category of membership that was only with the local congregation and not with the SDA denomination. My proposal was not accepted. That was fine as my intention was to stimulate thought and discussion. To stimulate discussion here, I will post my suggestion below, with identifying material removed: Associate Membership Proposal: R: XXXXXX Proposal: The local congregation of the Seventh-day Adventist denomination shall establish two (2) categories of membership, as is listed below: 1) Membership in the Seventh-day Adventist denomination: a) Membership: shall be both in the local Congregation and in the Seventh-day Adventist denomination. 'b) Requirements for membership: The requirements for membership will be the general requirements for membership of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, as outlined in either the standard Baptismal Statement of Belief or the Alternate Baptismal Statement of belief and as these statements may be amended by the appropriate denominational body from time to time. c) Teaching tool: the so-called 28 Fundamental Beliefs and any following amended editions may be used as a tool to teach common areas of SDA belief and practice, but they will not be used as a standard for baptism. d) Record of membership: Membership will be recorded in both congregational records and in the records of the local Conference. e) Ministry leadership: The basic level of eligibility for leadership and other ministry positions will be considered to have been met by membership in the SDA Denomination. However, some positions of leadership and positions that result in ordination and/or require ordination may have other requirements that must be met and/or are generally required by the SDA denomination. 2) Associate Membership in the local SDA Congregation: a) Membership: shall be an Associate Membership that is only in the local congregation and is NOT in either the local Conference or in the Seventh-day Adventist denomination. Such membership shall not be eligible for transfer. 'b) Requirements for membership: The basic standard for Associate Membership in the local SDA congregation will be that the Associate Member will have a commitment to follow the leading of Christ as led by the Holy Spirit and in addition will understand the mission and values of the local congregation and will want to participate in that congregation in a manner that will live peaceably with its congregational members. The Associate Member category will include people who: 1) Are not in full accord with the general understanding of SDA doctrines. 2) Are not fully compliant with the general understanding of SDA life style practices. 3) Wish to associate with other Christians but who have reservations about formally joining a denomination. 4) May have other reasons for joining as an Associate member without denominational membership. c) Teaching tool: Associate members will be required to have a basic knowledge of the beliefs and life style practices of the SDA Denomination. But, they will not be required to either believe them or to practice them. d) Record of membership: The local Conference will not be given an itemized listing of these names as the Conference is not set up to in a manner that requires it to have a listing of people who may attend, but are not SDA members. e) Ministry leadership: Associate Members may be restricted in the leadership positions that they can hold: 1) Leadership that requires ordination will be restricted to denominational members and will not be available to Associate members. 2) Associate members will not be ordained in leadership positions that allow for ordination but do not require it. 3) Associate Members may hold leadership positons that would not generally be considered to be of spiritual leadership. E.G. Fund raising for a building project. 4) Associate Members may participate in programing and in other roles that may be considered to have some level of spiritual leadership as long as the above is not violated and the Associate Member is carefully considered and will not use such a positon to agitate against the common beliefs and practices of the SDA denomination. 5) The local Congregation may place such additional restrictions on the use of Associate Members as it believes is needed.

Is it even possible for us to imagine God as big as He truly is, even is our wildest imagination? "it is written: “What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard and what no human mind has conceived”[a]— the things God has prepared for those who love him." (1 Cor. 9; Is. 64:4)

GREGORY I have heard that some barber shops are giving free hair cuts----besides all your mentioned dgrimm60

if you are a veteran, or on active duty in the military, give some thought to those who are providing free services today. Golden Corral is only one of many and is this year giving free meals on Monday the 14th. GC is a major player in this and has been doing this for years. Over the years they have given away millions of dollars in free meals to vets. Today, many restaurants are giving either free meals or discounted meals to vets. Some have given free automobile oil changes in the past--Grease Monkey has as well as others.

HEY ALL if you have the day off I hope you enjoy this day dgrimm60

Jesus Himself specifically pointed to the setting up of the "abomination of desolation" spoken of by Daniel the prophet as the event that triggers the occurrence of the great tribulation (or time of trouble in Dan 12:1, 2) which God will shorten for the sake of the elect, and emphatically added that the expiry of the great tribulation celestial phenomena will transpire and will be capped by the second coming. see Matt 24:14-31. In Daniel, it is in the occurrence of the time of trouble (or great tribulation in Matt 24:21) that those written in the book (of life?) will be delivered and where the resurrection of the dead (both righteous and wicked) occurs (Dan 12:1, 2). To me, this resurrection is that which will occur when Jesus will come. If not, which resurrection is this, since Scriptures specify there will be A RESURRECTION of both the just and the unjust (Acts 24:15)? But if it is, then the setting up of the abomination of desolation is yet to occur, along with the events directly related with its occurrence!

https://medium.com/@theonlytoby/history-tells-us-what-will-happen-next-with-brexit-trump-a3fefd154714#.x15ki1ybq It seems we’re entering another of those stupid seasons humans impose on themselves at fairly regular intervals. I am sketching out here opinions based on information, they may prove right, or may prove wrong, and they’re intended just to challenge and be part of a wider dialogue. My background is archaeology, so also history and anthropology. It leads me to look at big historical patterns. My theory is that most peoples’ perspective of history is limited to the experience communicated by their parents and grandparents, so 50–100 years. To go beyond that you have to read, study, and learn to untangle the propaganda that is inevitable in all telling of history. In a nutshell, at university I would fail a paper if I didn’t compare at least two, if not three opposing views on a topic. Taking one telling of events as gospel doesn’t wash in the comparative analytical method of research that forms the core of British academia. (I can’t speak for other systems, but they’re definitely not all alike in this way).

And I have prayed for your physical safety as well as resolution to the overall difficulty and also peace of mind you need, claiming Gods' promise on your behalf. Genesis 26:24 ... And the LORD appeared unto him the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not, for I am with thee, and will bless thee, and multiply ... God is Love!~Jesus saves!

I have thought this, too, that our ideas are too small, that we are trying to make him into something we can grasp in our brains

______________One never knows how much time they have left! http://tinyurl.com/hoc6cum God is Love!~Jesus saves!

Lori, the fact that a Trinity existed in some early pagan religions does not prove that Christianity got it from that source. I will remind you that baptism existed in non-Christian religions well before in became a Christian practice. Hislop is an interesting historian. But, as you probably knew and did not tell us, he would almost be considered ancient. He is not correct in everything that he said/wrote.

I'm sorry Jackson but this argument that prophets have no ecclesiastical authority is a fairly recent myth that has formed. 1 Corinthians 12:28 gives the Ecclesiastical hierarchy : And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. The highest authority is of course Jesus. Then come the Apostles; People who actually heard Jesus, studied with Jesus, people who had memory of Jesus and who were also witnesses to his resurrection. This included 11 of the 12, the 70 and potentially the group of over 500. So we have over 500 people who were Apostles and next to Christ themselves they had the highest ecclesiastical authority. By the time of the writings of John most of the Apostles were dying off, so we find in the books of John more emphases on the second highest ecclesiastical authority; the prophets. While there was the Aaronite priesthood, there was also the office of Judge which united the offices of Prophet, Priest and King. The major separation of these offices were in the Samuel compromise and did not meet together again until Jesus. Thus Deborah was a Judge who's job was the union between Prophet and Priest and King. The book of Judges gives one judge from each tribe and we know that there were more than these 12 Judges (Samuel for example being one) so the indication of the book of Judges was that each tribe submitted a story (or that the compiler of the Deuteronomic history picked one story for each tribe.) and since there is evidence that their were more than the 12 and one of the 12 who we have the record of was a woman and it was taken for granted that a woman could be a judge opens the possibility that there could have been other women judges besides Deborah. In the Samuel compromise the Prophet had the highest ecclesiastical authority. The New Testament continues this authority except that they had something greater than the visions, dreams and ways God gave information to prophets, that was when God lived among us and the people who got to experience that situation were thus given a higher form of ecclesiastical authority. And when the Apostles died the prophet's ecclesiastical authority became only secondary to the written records of the Apostles.