Leaderboard

I'm not gonna debate this again until after 1/20/2017. at that time, I will check back to see if hch has recanted. Whether the beast/antichrist is Obama, Pope Francis the Mahdi, or a resurrected Alexander the Great is all a matter of speculation - some more feasible than others. The question we need to ask ourselves constantly is not whether or not we have correctly identified the end-time players, but: Are you ready for Jesus to come? Are you faithful in all that you do? Are you ready to stand in your place? Are you ready to look on His face? Can you look up and say 'This is my God'? Are you ready for Jesus to come? If you can answer "yes to these questions, you will be in the Kingdom, no matter what the end-time scenario.

Begotten: This is an important word in this discussion. The Bible does present Christ as being begotten. (John 1:14, 18; John 3:16, 18; I Cor. 4:15; Hebrews 1:6; and I John 4:9 are examples.). One of the tasks that we face in understanding these verses is to understand the time that this begetting occurred. Is it something that occurred way back in eternity? Such a time might be prior to the time that Satan rebelled against God and was kicked out of heaven. Or, was this begetting at a more modern time? In any case, this question is important. John 1:14 is an interesting and important verse. It says in part: ". . . the Word became flesh. . . and. . .we beheld His glory. . .as of the only begotten of the Father, . . ." I will suggest that this verse tells us that the time that Christ was begotten was at the incarnation when Christ took on the form of human flesh. Thus, Christ may be considered to have been from eternity and without a beginning and in addition, due to the incarnation, he may be considered to be unique in having a beginning at the time when he, God, took on human flesh. In this form, he clearly had a beginning.

I appreciate that this has kept civil. Want to add this... How can man understand how God is or thinks? it is like a queen Bee, explaining to her drones and others how a super computer works, at best, she can only speak bee. We were made in his image, his likeness, but at best we can only speak and understand human.

Pam & Sojourner both have points. Jesus did fellowship with tax collectors. But, did he do so with religious leaders? On the surface, he did not. But, the example of Nicodemus (John 3:1-18) suggests that Christ did so fellowship with the religious leaders. But, Christ did not force himself upon him. It was Nicodemus that came to Christ.

Well was not one of the accusations levelled at Jesus that he ate with tax collectors? Tax collectors being agents of the Roman government and despised by many for their inherant corruption and abuse of power. Jesus Christ would embrace Trump like he would any one else. Judging Trump because people believe he sins differently to them is a nonsense. The fact is that there is no one that is without sin and like Jesus said, "the one among you that is without sin. Let him cast the first stone".

hch....you are getting real good with the finger pointing when people don't agree with you. I seem to remember a text about 'pride goeth before a down fall'.......

Not God but you! Heeding your own advice?

NOTE: this isn't to be a political thread. If we were to take the feelings of many people who honestly believe President-elect Donald Trump is racist, misogynistic, and just a terrible person in general, do you think Jesus would have "rubbed elbows" with him? We like to view Jesus as being the One who befriended the the unloved, the downtrodden, the "hated" of society — the ones who, by virtue of their words and actions, were considered to be the scum of the earth.... not just the poor and chastised of the land, but also the detested elites. It seems to me that Mr. Trump falls into the category of the "detested elites." Would Jesus have hobnobbed with him? Or would He have taken up with the protesting crowds? I'm really curious as to what folks here think about this. I've seen FB posts from Adventist friends who have demonized Mr. Trump, and who say Jesus would join in the protests. That really bothers me because it doesn't seem to mesh with how I see Jesus dealing with the "detested elites" in the Bible. What say you? (and remember, this is NOT to be hijacked into a political thread! I'm not interested in debating the worthiness of the protests, nor the persona of Mr. Trump.)

" Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father." (John 14:11-12) "After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20 Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it. (Mark 16:19-20) "Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles." (Acts 2:43) " I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done— 19 by the power of signs and wonders, through the power of the Spirit of God. So from Jerusalem all the way around to Illyricum, I have fully proclaimed the gospel of Christ." (Rom. 15:18-19) The age of miracles continues today. It did NOT end with the apostles. Me may not get a miracle every time we ask for one; but by asking we will get (and see) more miracles as we ask for them and look for them. At my age, being able to transform from horizontal to vertical every day feels like a miracle !

How did Christ come to seek and save the lost.....by staying away from them as far as he could get? Nope. He came to earth....or so the Bible says. What more proof do we need about who He would associate with?

some of you probably saw the Super Moon last night, or will be able to see it tonight... unfortunately, where I am, the sky is clouded over and it's raining. For those of you, like me, who didn't get to see it, here's how you can have that Super Moon experience too: Take a flour tortilla and place it on your window. And Voila! (photo and idea from my friends in Yorkshire, England)

Amen!!

Why do the modern critics of the trinity blame Leroy Froom, when at the white estate you can find papers, pamphlets, letters, etc. that were written in the first decade of the 20th century (Long before Froom) who were blaming it on W. W. Prescott and complaining about Prescott controlling Mrs. White by deceiving her into believing in the trinity? The same blame that is now given to Froom and placing it in the 1950s were lamented and complained about in the first decade of the 1900s, half a century prior to Froom.

Some understand "God" to be ONE eternal PERSON who manifests as three. Some understand "God" to be THREE actual divine persons who have all three existed from eternity. In both views - "God" is not "the Father" because He never actually begot a Son in His "express image". In my view "God" IS "the Father" who actually begot a Son. Through that Son HE created all things. His Son and led the angels against those who rebelled in heaven. His Son was mediator between the Father and creation. His Son redeemed those who could be "saved". Ephesians 4:6 "One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." 1 Corinthians 8:6 "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." We worship Jesus Christ BECAUSE the Father has commanded it. There is no command to worship the Spirit. The Spirit OF the Father filled Christ "without measure" at Pentecost, when His consecration to High Priesthood was complete. That spirit of the Father poured through Christ to the disciples. The SOURCE is the Father. The channel is Jesus. Humans are the recipients. Matthew 10:19 "But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you." (KJV) John 14:16 “And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever.” John 15:26 “But when the Helper comes, whom (or which) I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who (or which) proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me” (John 15:26). Luke 11:13 “If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?” (NKJ) Ephesians 3:14-18 “For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith.” Romans 8:11 “But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.” The Father raised Christ from death (1Peter 1:3; Galatians 1:1; Ephesians 1:17-20). NONE of these verses speak of the Holy Spirit as a THIRD divine being. It is the spirit OF our omnipresent God and Father.

I actually find Henry's ideas fascinating. There *can* be hidden meanings in the prophecies of the Bible. It really doesn't hurt to read what others might find. Believing or disbelieving what the meanings might be isn't a salvational issue (meaning you don't need to believe in a certain interpretation in order to be saved). But many people find solace in the projected meanings of prophecies. I think Henry is very sincere in his quest. just my 2¢

God has not created any hindrance to man seeing the light now or any time. What blinds is hardness of heart. Pharaoh saw light and step by step rejected it and went into increasing darkness. Light shines brightly on us and we see it and it will either increase or decrease depending on our response, our exercise of will. we will either reflect light or absorb it like darkness that merely absorbs light. when we use the light to glorify ourselves it is absorbed and not reflected. When we give God glory it is reflected and will increase. Jesus is the light that lighted every man that cometh into the world. God help us in spite of ourselves to give and not just take.

The end of all things hinges on conditional promises of God. God is bringing about those conditions and then he will bring the fullness of the promise. He said the Gospel of this kingdom will be preached in all the earth then the end will come. it does not depend on this leader or that leader and what they may or may not do. When Jesus came the light of heaven rose like the morning sun to the full noon day of light and glory and the persecution came and he was put to death, and he rose. this will happen again before Jesus comes, and this time when the persecution is in it's roaring... Jesus will interrupt the scene by His appearing. we do not need any particular man to be a political leader... that will not bring about the work of the Spirit, the witness to the world, and the end. Wasn't the glory of Israel something that was greater than Babylon when Solomon ruled? Then Israel fell into degradation, lead by Solomon through sexual worship of other Gods. Was not God showing a succession of Kingdoms that were lesser and lesser in Glory after Solomon's rule until the Glory of the physical kingdom of Jesus should show up in power on the scene? Just on the banks of the Jordan the last cleansing of the unbelievers who failed on the first arrival at the Jordan, was a test of sensual purity. We are not to look to politics for indications of the times, but to Jesus himself, to our walk with God, and how God is using us to witness of His character, and to know what God we are giving our worship, the god's of this world or the God of eternity.

Jesus lived in a real human body that shared the degeneration of man as a result of sin. He lived by faith, and was empowered in everything he did by the working of the Holy Spirit. The work of the Spirit at that time was to show Jesus was indeed the Son of God who came to reveal the Father and redeem man. When he would return to heaven he would no longer be living by faith he would be living by sight. The Holy Spirit is omniscient. Jesus gave up His omniscience when he became joined to His creation that began by a conception in Mary. He became dependent on the Holy Spirit to have a connection with God. Just as we are dependent on the Holy Spirit to have a connection with God. Jesus said of Himself, "Of myself I can do nothing." When Jesus as representative of the human race returned to heaven the Glory He had with the Father was returned in it's fullness. Something happened for us. In God's time, it was time for the church on earth to be mightily empowered to show Jesus is indeed the Son of God who came to reveal the Father and redeem man. And that same work will be done in us and through who are fallen human beings. What an amazing plan that God will use sin broken vessels to reveal the glory of who he is, how much he loves every human being, and his power to heal and restore every human being. This was signaled by the great outpouring of the Spirit at Pentecost which had been prophesied about and planned for By God before the creation of the earth. The result was the enemy resoundingly moving on human agents to persecute and kill every Christian possible. This continued through the dark ages... and the power of God by the abiding of the Holy Spirit in the human race was in smaller and smaller measure, and the witness was greatly diminished. till now we have the laodicean condition. And the body of Christ on earth is destitute, and blind and naked... in need of everything the Holy Spirit has to give us. When the church stands up completely clothed and enriched, and with clear vision... you can be sure the enemy will be aroused to persecute again. Yet Jesus was filled with the Spirit according to the will of God every day of His life and at his baptism the Spirit was sent in signal form, and Jesus was mature and ready for testing, and to enter on a final stage to witness, teach, heal... and profoundly reveal God's will and ways, and power to restore every aspect of humanity lost by sin. It was when he began to demonstrate the power of God that members of humanity was aroused to hatred because he had a greater power than they had over their following. So when God's people show up with a message that has greater power to bring people to God away from whatever associations held them... those in positions of authority will become enraged. It will be a power that will not submit to their control. The Holy Spirit has ever been present when God's children are being hated for no cause, and they are hated because of the higher power working in them. There was this period in Christ's life where persecution was just happening in the family and in the neighborhood. And it did. And this is the period we are living in here. This is not the persecution by the higher authorities of the state. There is a martyrdom in the name of Christ that gains nothing for the martyrs, it is talked about it 1 Corinthians 13. I am not going to be able to know when someone is martyred whether they will enter heaven or not. When persecution against Christ was ready to kill him before the time... Jesus would leave the area and be safe. How do you know Jesus is about to come? Others will want to Kill you because of the power of the Holy Spirit in your life. All three members of the God head share one purpose, and one desire, and carry out plans they all designed and purposed. Each has a role and a work in carrying out this plan. It is a perfect plan on a time schedule, to bring about a perfect end to sin, and complete deliverance of all who are willing, and it will bring to God eternal praise and glory for his eternal goodness to the unworthy forever. Oh yes you can say we will be made worthy, and we will not carry any shame for eternity yes this is true. But we come into the kingdom of God a new born babies... naked and destitute and unable to see anything clearly... (quite a parallel to the Laodicean condition) and everything that equips us, qualifies us, prepares us are gifts, and given to us, and the glory for our redemption belongs to Him alone and we will glorify our God for eternity. i could not stop this meditation... one thing linked to another.

Gail said below: In order to communicate what you have suggested, I prefer to use the term "personal being." which I will suggest is less likely to imply human.

I like the story. It defiantly takes faith to tithe sometimes. Still I have to admit, some of the ways she was aided I don't think i would like, but I suppose that's where trusting in God comes into play. As for only paying it to the Adventist church...eh I'm not so sure.

The local conference isn't the only "storehouse" out there for God's tithe. If the tithe is supposed to be for the ministry of spreading the gospel and supporting gospel workers, there are plenty of mission organizations out there who are as deserving as the conference to receive tithe. I'd rather donate to a mission that is taking the gospel to people who have never heard of Christ than to a mission whose main purpose is to convert other already dedicated believers to a different denomination. People need Jesus more than they need a denomination. Unfortunately, a majority of tithe collected goes to support work in places where the majority of people are already Christians. I think this is a spiritual injustice to those who have never had the opportunity to even hear the name of Jesus.