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Post # 1 It is very easy to criticize the SDA denomination. Such is not bad in itself. It can be an agent of change. It can be good in playing a role in bringing change about. It can be positive and not just negative. There are times when I take that role and do become a critic of the denomination. I have been at the past two General Conference Sessions, at least in part. I was not there for the entire session in Atlanta. I was scheduled to stay for the entire session in Texas, but I ended up leaving before it ended. For the past 18 months, or so, I have been asking myself how I would reorganize this monolithic denomination in order to perform its mission in the "end times" in which we are living. Guiding me in this is my belief that at the very end of time this denominational structure will no longer effectively exist. Mission and ministry will be carried on by individual members and without the support of higher levels denominational organization. If this is true, it may be that we should begin to prepare for this time. It just may be that we need to break the dependence upon higher organizations that has come to exist. I also think that coming out of this perspective, I should be willing to suggest how we as a denomination might reorganize for the time that we may face in the future. That is what I intend to do in this thread. Frankly, I have not fully developed my thinking on this subject. It will take more time than I will have in one setting to verbalize. So, while I will attempt to do so in this thread, I am will lock it until I have had the opportunity to further explain what I am thinking about. After I have done that, I will open the thread up for discussion. Stay tuned.

Post # 2 I must acknowledge that two of the principles that guide my thinking on the reorganization of the SDA denomination stem from advice given to us years ago by Ellen White. 1) EGE clearly spoke against "kingly power." Yes, she spoke about this in the context of the kingly power exercised by one person. See: 8T:236 and Chl 49.3 I believe that if EGW were alive today, she would rebuke denominational leadership over the use of kingly power that exists in the ability to control the membership of committees that administer the SDA denomination today and in addition the power that exists to influence the election of people to positions of denominational responsibility. 2) Ellen White clearly advocated the establishment of Union Conferences to get ministry in the local Conference out from under the authority of the General Conference. See ChL 26.1 I believe that she would rebuke those today who do not follow her advice and have attempted to give the General Conference authority of the individual local Conferences..

Plain semantics, I guess. The infant's "response" is his choice: he chose to respond the way he did. Sorry, but on the other hand, what are considered by Rachel as Biblical evidence for her position points, IMHO, the other direction. Christ has EMPHATICALLY declared and recorded at least twice in Scriptures, that when He comes again He will reward EVERY MAN according to what each has done (Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12). So who doesn't get rewarded? What's the need for teaching those who the HS had already taught even though there are some who, like Rachel, don't believe the HS has taught them? God now COMMANDS all - this should include those who Rachel call the ignorant pagans - to repent (Acts 17:30), so who's not CAPABLE of repenting? The fact that God commands ALL connotes that ALL had been taught. Will God command me anything He knows I am NOT capable of and then punish me if I can't? And as Gregory had already explained, every one will be held accountable for what he has learned from the HS.

Samie, there is a lot to be positively said about your post on perfection. There is a sense that in this life, no human will ever reach perfection in an absolute sense and no human will in this life understand God in full totality. But, God does not charge us with sin when we have not been convicted of a sin and are not in rebellion against God on that point. In that sense, god counts us as perfect.

Let me tell you a story, brief and leaving out some of the interesting facts: Ralph, not his name, was a developmentally disabled person. As part of his rehabilitative services arrangements were made for him to do some volunteer work at the hospital where I later became employed. Ralph devoted his full efforts to contributing as much as he could to the mission of the hospital. Those efforts were recognized and as a result Ralph was offered employment in housekeeping. NOTE: The hospital where I worked had a policy that volunteers are not offered employment. In addition, as a Federal hospital, employment was only offered to people who typically applied in a competitive process. For Ralph to be hired as he was hired was a major exception to policy. To be brief, and to skip over the details, at the time that I was employed in that hospital, Ralph's primary duties, in part, were to hang around with the chaplains. Yes, he did other stuff also. As I came to know Ralph, within the limits of his abilities, I treated Ralph the same way that I treated other people. This included joking with him. It was not uncommon for me to tell Ralph, the first time that I saw him in the morning, that I had received a telephone call from the President, who had enquired about Ralph and asked me to keep watch on him so that the did nor depart from the straight and the narrow. Ralph enjoyed this type of relationship and became quite close to me. One Friday evening, I am sitting at home when the hospital telephone operator calls me. I am told that Ralph wants to talk to me. The operator has refused to give him my home number, but Ralph simply calls back and requests to talk tome and does it again and again. So, finally the operator calls me and asks if I will get Ralph off of his back and talk to him. I agree. This is Friday evening. Sunday I am responsible for a major program honoring the veterans who have died. This is a big thing. We were expecting some 200 family members. Ralph is on the phone. He has been poking around in the hospital to see what arrangements have been made for that Sunday program. He has determined that the arrangements for the liquid refreshments have fallen through and none will be provided on Sunday. He wants to tell me a bout that. Ralph is correct. Because he has notified me, I am able to rectify the situation and the Sunday program goes as planed. Ralph saved my skin and professional reputation and saw to it that our memorial service went off as planned. Folks, developmentally handicapped people can contribute and should be valued.

The Wanderer has asked that I give an example of what I mean by a standard that is relative to what the Holy Spirit has accomplished in one's life: Example # 1: a) X is a 11 year old child living in the slums of NYC. X is the child of a Father who fences stolen goods and is being trained to fill a part this system of earning income. X has been given no spiritual training, other than to think of God as powerless and a fable just like Santa Claus. One day X sees an advertisement for a program at a near-by church that interests him due to the fact that it promises him some free pizza. So, X attends and is impressed by what he is told at the program. X has never seen a Bible. X has never prayed. But, deep in his heart, X wants to know more about this God. X is willing to learn. 'b) Y is an 11 year old child living in the suburbs of Southern California. Y is the child of a church leader who is a professor at a near-by seminary, who both develops materials to teach Christian concepts to pre-teen children and teaches students how to minister to pre-teen children. Y understands 28 concepts of Christian belief and can explain them in terms that children her age can understand. Y has read the Bible through twice. She begins each day with prayer and an invitation for Christ to lead her that day. Y has recently been impressed that she has more to learn about God and the life that lies ahead of her in eternity. Y is willing to learn. I believe that we can agree that X and Y are not at the same level of spiritual understanding. We can likely agree that Y is greatly advantaged over X. The Bible teaches us that the Holy Spirit is responsible for one's spiritual education and conviction of a need to change. While the two are at very different levels of understanding of God and eternity, they both stand before God on the same level. The HS is leading both. At every point in time they are making choices at to what they want to do about eternity and God accepts their choice in relation to what the HS has taught them. The standard is relative. Example # 2: a) A is a developmentally disabled 35 year old adult. A can only live independently with assistance. A has never learned to read. A loves to attend church services each week because people there are kind to him. They tell him of a God who loves him. They tell him that God values him. A wants to spend eternity with such a God. 'B) is a high-functioning 35 year old adult. She holds a PhD. in Biblical languages. She is the senior pastor of a 10,000 member of a mega-congregation. But, deep in her heart she has questions about God. Those are honest questions. But, she is uncertain as to why anyone would want to spend eternity with the God that she pictures in her mind. Both A and B are honest in their understandings of God and eternity. But, they are at different places in their spiritual life. But, the HS is in charge of the spiritual development of both. Both are in the process of making choices as to whether or not they want to spend eternity with God. God is accepting their choices in relation to what the HS has taught them.

The NAD is sponsoring a ministries convention, January 8 l- 11, 2017, in Tucson, AZ. This is focused on denominational leaders and it has short presentations on many aspects of ministry. On January 10 it will have 2.5 hours devoted to a couple of aspects of ministry to Muslims. See: http://www.adventistministriesconvention.com/article/43/seminars/muslim-ministries

He was faithful, and the Lord was faithful to sustain him. this is a great story, a demonstration of faith and God working.