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To me it appears that they base their premise on the out dated information where our histories use to teach that December 25 was important to the Pagans and the church embraced it fourth century with the events of Constantine, then go off the far extreme on the paganism. Today there is evidence that there were Christians who came to December 25 about a hundred years earlier than Constantine. That it came from Jewish traditions about Isaac. And that while different dates around the winter solstice were important to pagans, that there is no real strong attachment among the Pagans to December 25 until Constantine. We have two attitudes fighting inside our selves. One is our sinful nature, a disposition to think we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world. To esteem ourselves more than others, to serve self, to seek the highest place. Fighting this is our deepest desire, the desire to want to be like and with Jesus. To love the world as he has loved it. It appears to me that these people are celebrating their sinful nature by separating themselves from the world around them and to have contempt for those of us who enjoy the time with family and enjoyment of celebrating Jesus' birth even though we have the wrong day. Someone posted "Pagans worshiped the Sun but we still use it." While we want to be careful to not get sucked into paganism or the consumerism, we need to be careful about screaming "Pagan". When we look at the feasts of the land in the Bible; Passover, Yom Kippur etc. they were the feasts of the pagan Canaanite temples long before Abraham was even born. They were related to the agricultural cycle of that piece of geography. The current evidence is leaning towards us not getting December 25 from the Pagans but from Jewish traditions. However Passover, Yom Kippur etc. even what developed into the Seventh-day Adventist belief in the Investigative Judgment all came from Canaanite paganism. Finally, around this season we also celebrate Hanukkah. Hanukkah is the one temple feast that did not become a Biblical feast until the New Testament. It is the framework for the story of the raising of Lazarus. The focus on the joy of family and the hope for the reunion with those who are no longer sitting around our holiday table because though he tarry, the one who is the resurrection and the life is going to come and say to our loved ones "Come Forth". It is almost prophetic like if Jesus saw how important this season would be to us and gave us a message for this season to celebrate the family and the joy of the coming resurrection day! If you don't want to celebrate Jesus' birth at this season, then don't climb into your own shell and despise and look down upon but join your family and celebrate the aspects that Jesus added to Hanukkah!

I think the answer in the future will be small groups like the members of The Way did after Jesus' departure.

I did not grow up in the church, but have remained since baptism. My wife found out about Ellen and she left. I studied and found the claims against Ellen to be valid. I shared this information with others who thought it was from the devil, or something. I think it's the closest church to keeping the Bible, and I have found a lot of caring people. It seems like when I first joined (July 1980) there was a lot of what JoeMo talks about. Since the 90s, I have found that attitude waning. I guess it depends on the church one attends. Some are more "strict" than others. I guess it depends on the pastor. BTW, the best thing I did to understand God's word better was to evict Ellen from my house. You'd be surprised what people believe that's not in the Word.

I looked over the study. While I think it was presented with the best of intentions, it really comes across to me as telling people to be afraid, be very afraid, if there is - or was - any connection of paganism to Christmas. That's not healthy. The only thing about the holiday season that is blessed by Satan is the commercialization. - Satan and his minions aren't dancing around for joy because someone has a Christmas tree, gives Christmas gifts, or tells their children about Santa Claus. He's more than happy when people are fearful and see nothing but evil in celebrating the birth of Christ (it doesn't matter if it's not really His birthdate.) And by the way, Wiccans do not believe in the devil — they are not devil worshippers. They are basically tree-huggers, the majority of whom do mere basic Magick, if any at all. Neither they nor any other pagans are interested in usurping the Christian notion of Christmas or injecting their pagan rituals into Christianity. If Satan has caused fear in someone of celebrating Christmas, then he is happy. Don't fall for that malarky.

I think a lot leave simply because they don't feel like they "belong" .... Sometimes I think there needs to be an "Island of Misfits" — where we can go, and feel like we have a semblance of acceptance. (Kinda like the "island of misfit toys" on the old Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer Christmas special) C/A is really the only "island" that comes anywhere close to that... (that I know of)

As taken from Terence Dawson, in Biology 5th Edition, page 960. The above book is old and dated. But, the quote, I believe is interesting.

Gregory had another similar, but not the same, interesting thread pertaining to this topic a few years ago: I love reading stories like this...

O.K. Tell us how you became a chaplain in the National Guard: The Army had a program where-by clergy who were considering a future in the Army chaplaincy could be in the Army in a status where they did not have to provide any service of any kind. I was in that status. NOTE: While this program still exists, it has changed in a manner that would not allow me to have functioned as I did at that time. A one-star general was angry that his senior chaplain who the general believed had not properly filled a chaplain space in this National Guard unit. So, the general informed his chaplain that the general would demonstrate that such a space could easily be filled and he set out to recruit a chaplain. At this time, that senior chaplain put in for retirement. The chaplain replaced him could not immediately fill the position due to administrative issues. His prior experience with SDAs had not been helpful. At a later time, he told me that if he had been in the position to do so, he would never have allowed me to become a NG chaplain. NOTE: Later he became my best friend and supported me. Anyway, this general officer searched the military files, found may name and asked me to visit him for an interview. In that interview I told him that I would be unable to drill on Saturdays as I had denominational requirements. He asked if I would be willing to deploy and to go on the two-week mobalizations. I told him that I would. He then informed me that he would accept me and that he would issue the order that made if possible for me not to drill on Saturdays. I became the first SDA chaplain to serve in a National Guard unit. At a later time I was moved to another area. At that time I needed to transfer to an Army Reserve Unit. I was visited by senior chaplain who asked about my availability. I again informed him of my unwillingness to drill on Saturdays. He said he would make it happen and he did. I later decided that I really did not have a future in the Reserves, in part due to my position on drilling on Saturdays. So, I became full time active Army chaplain. Again, God made that happen. At that time, which is not the present situation, denominations received a fixed number of people whom they could have on active duty. The SDA denomination had their full quota. They could not have any more chaplains. Near the end of the fiscal year a Baptist chaplain candidate failed to pass his active Army physical. To keep from losing that chaplain slot, the Army offered to change this Baptist slot to a SDA slot if the denomination would endorse me. The Church typically works slowly. It did not have the normal time to go through the normal process to endorse a military candidate. However, my endorsement took place and I entered active military service as a chaplain and I completed 20 years of service. It should be noted that God had intervened in another way. While I served for two (2) years as a draftee and 18 years as a chaplain, at no time did I ever meet the medical requirements to serve. But, God made it happen and I not only entered active duty twice, but I served for a total of 20+ years. Folks, when God wants you to serve, God makes it happen regardless of human road blocks.

Again the basics include this: What is your authority? Is it L. Ron Hubbard? Is it the Bible? Christians believe that it is the Bible. Another basic is this: Who is your savior? Is it Jesus Christ? Is salvation found in L. Ron Hubbard? If it is L. Ron Hubbard, you have departed from Christianity.

Is this a troll? If so, I'll bite. ? One source mentioned in the article opined “We do not need the heathen to direct us on how to do our matters” When will Adventists stop thinking that we are something special and don't have to abide by the rules that the rest of the world does? It's not a religious issue. It's a legal issue. We can get a justifiably unfavorable opinion with this type of thinking. Does perfection result in breaking the law? A reasonable course of action would be to find out what's needed AND DO IT! People would like us more. Fortunately, that's what the church is doing.

I would also like to say that if Gail had not introduced me to CA several years ago, I would likely be an SDA drop-out today. There are many people here with whom I can identify - people who question the standards of the denomination or the historic interpretations of scripture. People who continue to struggle with overcoming the habitual sins and shortcomings,a d handicaps they have struggled with the majority of their lives. There are broken people here who just want to belong somewhere. Thank you CA, for giving me a reason to stay in the church.

If that's true in your church, it's time to find another church. Jesus came to save sinners, not those who already consider themselves saved. If you cannot share your struggles with your spiritual family and expect support (as well as support those who are struggling), who are you supposed to turn to for support? I'm happy to say that I belong to a church full of broken people who are comfortable sharing their brokeness with their church family and be comforted by their brothers and sisters. We can all be broken together in love and compassion for one another.

See: http://atoday.org/the-agnostic-before-christmas/ NOTE: I acknowledge that this thread does not engage in religious discussions. But, in the view of the above listed agnostic, Christmas has been stripped of its religious significance. So, this is not a religious post. As the agnostic grew up in a SDA household, I find it to be interesting as to how he relates to Christmas.

On 12/23 my wife isn't feeling well, but if she feels better, we'll probably go to a buffet dinner or a movie (if there's anything good showing). If not, we will probably watch stuff on TV. Peaceful and quiet. No kids, 2 Jack Russell Terriers and a Manx cat are enough children.

See: http://atoday.org/hacksaw-ridge-wins-9-awards-at-the-australian-academy-of-cinema-and-television-arts-awards/

I will give an example of a situation where someone with the power to do so did me a real favor: I was divorced, and shared joint custody with my ex-wife of our two minor sons. I was notified that I was coming down on orders to Europe, for a 3-year, family accompanied, assignment. I did not consider that to be workable. I called the Pentagon and spoke to the person, about my situation. I was offered a non-family, one-year assignment in South Korea. I said that also did not meet my needs. I stated that what I needed was a 2-year, family accompanied assignment to Seoul Korea. I was immediately informed that such was not possible for me in my situation. So, I thanked the assignment officer and left it in the hands of the Lord. Shortly thereafter, orders came down that assiged me to a 2-year, family accompanied tour to Seoul, Korea. I was given family quarters in Korea and as a single parent my two sons rotated living with me. To this day, I will have to say that from the human standpoint, I would never have been given such an assignment. But, someone in the Pentagon, probably one who personally knew me, made it happen. At that time it became my responsibility to make it work. I did.

Pam: Thanks for sticking up with our quirks, here in CA. We value you and are glad that you are with us. You do contribute and add value to CA. However, this does not mean that we won't challenge you and take you on if you give us an opening.

Pam has raised a valid point. However: [Pam, I'll bet you were expecting a 'However.'] No person should remain in a toxic organization. It simply is not healthy. There is a reality that sometimes an organization, or even a congregation, can be toxic toward a person. In such a case, people should not be blamed for the choice that they make. As SDA clergy I am well aware of situations where a local SDA congregation has become toxic to a specific individual. The reality is: There are some situations that develop where in order to experience the saving grace of Christ, an individual must separate from what is the only SDA Congregation that is functionally available to them.

GREGORY and JOE MO well about 25 years ago i and my at the time was studying with a family----the husband never was interested but the wife --3 daughters --1 son did the study and joined the church-----but 1st the son then the mom and daughters all left the reason we made them good S.D.A. members but not followers of JESUS ------that was an eye opener for me so what we need to do in our studies is to get them to understand to how to follower JESUS then the rest will follow dgrimm60

I have in my hand a small pamphlet telling me that there are only 4 steps to obtaining eternal life - 1) THE GIFT - Believe that God loves you and wants to give you eternal life, Jn 3:16, 1 Jn 5:11 2) SEPARATION - Recognize that you are sinful and separated from eternal life, Rom 3:23, Gal 3:23, Isa 59:2, Rom 6:23, and although man tries to reach out to God with his works, this is impossible except through grace, Eph 2:8-9 3) PROVISION - Believe that Jesus is the only provision for your sin, Act 4:12, 1 Jn 5:12, Jn 14:6 4) ACCEPTANCE - in order to have eternal lifewe must receive Jesus Christ as our personal Savior and Lord, Jn 1:12, Rev 3:20, Is salvation really this simple?

Gerry, the problem with what you cited is that it makes salvation to complex. 1) Salvation was achieved on the Cross. See Romans 5:12-19. Here we are told that just as the sin of one person (Adam) brought sin to all of humanity, so also did the work of Christ on the Cross bring the gift of salvation to all. Gerry, the salvation of the human race has already been accomplished. 2) Now that salvation has been accomplished each human faces a choice. The is the conflict that began in heaven many years ago when Satan challenged God and said: Your creation would chose me, if they were free to chose between you and I. 3) Each person Earth must make a decision as to whether to spend eternity with God or to join Satan in his life and future. For those who chose not to spend eternity with God, God will grant them their desired choice along with its consequences.

The angels did not come in angelic form. The people were not wanting a supernatural experience with beings of another planet. The Bible is clear: they looked like men. In fact, very ordinary men. Rereading the story might refresh our memories, but it's a little long, so I'll quote just a few pertinent texts. "And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw [them], he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant: Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree: And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said." (Genesis 18:2-5) This is the very story that gets referenced in the New Testament again, which says: "Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares." (Hebrews 13:2) Obviously, these did not look like angels if Abraham was unaware of it. After Abraham had entertained them, they went on their way. "And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD." (Genesis 18:22) While the two angels were going on their mission toward Sodom, Abraham bargained with God in that now-famous plea for God to spare the city. As we know, not even ten were found righteous there, and it was not spared. No, the story of Sodom had nothing to do with angel sex. It had everything to do with homosexual desire. The men outside did not know they were asking for angels. They perceived only ordinary men, just as both Abraham and Lot had perceived. Lot did not know the true character of the men until they had blinded the crowd outside. The story has been left on record for our admonition.