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I often struggled with the thief in the night description of the return of Jesus, especially since Scripture also says He will come with great glory and every eye will see Him. Then it occurred to me that His coming is a process that includes the close of probation! So, like when you wake up in the night to find a burglar standing at the foot of your bed, he has already been in your house for sometime and broke into your house when you did not even know it. Similarly, when probation closes, no one will know on earth except perhaps some to whom God choses to share the moment with. He has been known to reveal His secrets to His servants in the past.

Gail wrote: “You know that in this thread you are allowed to look things up. It's not considered cheating That's what I like about pkrause” This topic thread has not been a class room for competition, showing off one's bible knowledge, or trying to prove one is fully perfect in knowing the answers. On the contrary, this Bible Trivia thread is for the sole purpose of being in fellowship one with the other of shared knowledge of what one has in memory of bible stories. Sadly, our resident scholar, Gail, stopped contributing at page 54. Now from then to page 62 PeterK flew solo in teaching us where the golden nuggets of Bible knowledge are to be found. I appreciate very much Peter’s tenacity in keeping this most valuable topic thread on-going. Please don’t give up. It took two days for me to read page for page until page 62. What a “Wow” blessing it was for my spiritual life. There was so many names and places I didn’t recognize. But those answers I did know I felt relieved to discover a joy come to me when Peter gave the final same answer. I have a creative mind but not a scholarly mind and sadly it is with a small memory bank. As a matter of fact my memory bank is shriveling up somewhat. Such a topic thread as this one helps enormously in challenging concentration in bible knowledge which is vital for fighting deception or false teachings.

Grrrr! Wish we could edit! This does not mean I am not open to new ideas, but a serious restructuring is something I will immediately dismiss with a serious compelling demonstration from the Bible and I do not see that happening. Should have read: This does not mean I am not open to new ideas, but a serious restructuring is something I will immediately dismiss without a serious compelling demonstration from the Bible and I do not see that happening.

What I found interesting was the concept that the close of probation is not an arbitrary cutting off of mercy, but a going out of business because there is no more genuine repentance and seeking forgiveness of sin. The righteous have the character of Jesus and have overcome while the wicked no longer care or have any genuine sorrow for sin.

That is in my plans as I fully expect her to challenge me the next time she sees me. Age is catching up with me. I remember a time when I was expected to do more than 20 and I was doing it. As to her Father's ability to judge a valid push-up: He is a Correctional Officer at a major California prison. He knows what is a good push-up, and that is what he has taught his daughter. She was doing excellent push-ups.

I think I will stick to the historical Seventh-day Adventist chain of events in eschatology as discerned by the early church pioneers. While there may be a bit of confusion about some minor points relative to the Ottoman Empire, most of it (Daniel & Revelation by Uriah Smith) lines up well with the Bible. Also, as many of the early pioneers studied their Bibles and came to their opinions, they were often confirmed by the visions of EGW. While many in the church today are "falling away", if you will, I am not impressed by many of the theories that have been devised to take the place of the early pioneers conclusions. This does not mean I am not open to new ideas, but a serious restructuring is something I will immediately dismiss with a serious compelling demonstration from the Bible and I do not see that happening. Understandings not available prior can be interesting and it is not like I have heard some very interesting concepts presented from the pulpit by SDA pastors. In the meantime, riddle me this, for the Anti-deluvian people, when did their probation end? I do not accept the the end of probation is going to be when Jesus is arriving from heaven and the verse from Revelation indicates He has already judged the world. BTW, the righteous who will go to heaven are not judged as they are not under condemnation (or judgement, the same Greek word). So, His reward He has with Him. Many have problems with the 2300 day prophecy, that is not really my problem. I accept that the Most Holy part of the Sanctuary started in 1844, as discerned by the early pioneers. Complicating everything, is that many theories about the sequence of events were devised ind the early reformation period, and some even by Catholic monks, specifically to confuse the issues when the students of the Bible began serious Bible study. And as a result, there is now serious confusion throughout Christendom regarding endtime events.

I agree that Christ did NOT enter the MHP when He ascended. He entered the "holy place" to begin the ministry of the "first apartment" - though Heaven is not divided into separate "apartments". The separate apartments represented different phases of Christ's work. Obviously - where God the Father is, IS the holiest PLACE. Jesus sat down at the right hand of the Father. But He would not fulfill the prophetic TYPE known as the Most Holy Place ministry, until near the END of this age. Jesus is the One on trial in the final judgment of Daniel 7:9-10, and with Him all of Israel (Israel redeemed - which He represents). This is NOT a case of Jesus "investigating" to see which human beings He will save. "The LORD knows those who are His!" (2Tim. 2:9). The Day of Atonement was all about putting the blame where it belongs! - on the head of Satan - the "scapegoat". I disagree that a ministry of teaching the Gospel was to continue on earth, AFTER "the hour of His judgment has come". The "Good News" which the angel is announcing is that the hour of Christs judgment has come. This is "the hour" when dominion will be given to Christ, (Daniel 7: 13-14) and He will immediately return for His own. In Daniel 11:15, the 7th (and last) trumpet sounds. "And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" This is the day when dominion is taken from Satan and given to Christ - and that means Christ reigns. v. says of Christ, "you have taken your great power and reigned". v. 18 says "Your wrath has come, AND the time of the dead that they should be judged, AND that it is time to reward the servants of God, both prophets and saints, and all who fear Your name AND it is time to "destroy those who destroy the earth." These are things that happen at the SC. [I believe the 7 vial plagues begin on the day that Christ returns, after His own people have been removed from planet earth.] Four things: wrath -- judgment of the dead -- reward for the servants of God -- destroy those who destroy earth God's WRATH is poured out as the 7 last vial plagues. The wicked dead are judged when they are resurrected at the SC (See Daniel 12:2-3). They are judged and executed on that day. There is no reason to wake them up again, a thousand years later, to judge them AGAIN, and execute them AGAIN. The redeemed are rewarded on that day - with everlasting life. Earth is destroyed - along with those who destroyed.

Hi Derek, As you can probably already see, Adventists don't even agree among themselves on some of the points you bring up. For example, Jackson refers to the "2300 day for a year" prophecy in Daniel (Dan. 8:14). The angel never told Daniel that "a day for a year" POV applies to eschatology. In fact, the angel interpreting this same vision specifically tells Daniel that these visions pertain to the end times (Dan. 8:17, 8:19, and 8:26). So how could the 2300 "day for a year" prophecies begin within a few years of Daniels' death? Traditional SDA's also apply the day for a year principle to the 70 weeks of years discussed in Daniel 9 as ending with the stoning of Stephen in about 34 AD. A careful read Daniel 9:24 - 29 breaks out the 70th week from the previous 69 weeks at the end of the 69th week an anointed one is put to death. (the capital letters for "Messiah" or "Anointed One" were added by translators but were not in the original text). Traditional Adventism says this "annointed one is Christ. But notice Daniel 9:27: " He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.” Does this "anointed one sound like Christ or some other "anointed one"? Remember - all kings and princes back then - good or evil - were anointed. Could the "messiah" that sets up the abomination that causes desolation be Christ? Traditional SDA's interpret the "middle of the seven" as when Christ was crucified; and the end on the "seven" is the stoning of Stephen. My current personal opinion is that the last "seven" is the time of trouble; and the last half of the last "seven" is the Great Tribulation (i.e., 1,260 days; time, times, and half a time) or Time of Jacob's distress referred to in Jeremiah 30. If you were expecting a clear uniform explanation of these difficult passages, I hope you aren't disappointed. Adventists are no more unified that Catholics (re: position on birth control) or evangelicals (e.g., position of gays) are. Your best bet is to be like a noble Berean and study there things out for yourself. In the end, you will be judged on your faithfulness to the Father and the Son and the intimacy of your relationship with them, not the doctrinal correctness of your bible interpretation. We have all eternity to develop correct judgements based onfuture face-to-face discussions with jesus in the Kingdom, if we love Him now.

Thank you Jackson for the breakdown, I have looked at this while conducting my research and taken it into consideration. This is compelling support, I think with the complexity of the Greek to English could be cause for some confusion. Because the Author didn't refer to the Most Holy place in the same verbiage does that negate that he references it? Hagia Hagion is holy holy's now if I say Most Holy or Holy of Holy's are those different if I don't use the consistent Most Holy verbiage? I will break down my understanding. Lets look at the contexts of the verses, and what the author of Hebrews is referencing. Hebrews chapter 9 begins with a description of the earthly sanctuary service. As part of this description of the earthly sanctuary the author points out the limited access of the earthly high priest who could only go into God's presence once per year, on the day of atonement: Heb 9:6 (ESV)These preparations having thus been made, the priests go regularly into the first section, performing their ritual duties, 7but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people. This shows the limited nature of access to God in the old covenant sanctuary. Even the high priest had very limited access to God's presence. He alone could enter once per year into God's direct presence, and not without blood. He did not stay but withdrew again until the next year. This description of the earthly sanctuary, including the day of atonement, sets the stage for the argument in the rest of the chapter. The author demonstrates that Jesus' sanctuary ministry surpasses the old covenant sanctuary service. The author's description of the day of atonement at the beginning of the chapter clues us in to where he is going. He is leading up to the argument that Jesus fulfilled this entry of the high priest once per year. Heb 9:11(ESV)But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come,e then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) 12he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. Jesus' entry here is described with a number of specifics. 1. Jesus entered as high priest into the sanctuary. 2. He entered by means of blood. Blood was not necessary to enter the first compartment of the sanctuary. Blood was required, however, to enter the second compartment. So this entry of Jesus included ministration in the heavenly equivalent of the second compartment. 3. Jesus blood is said to be superior to that of goats and calves. While there are various sacrifices spelled out in the Old Testament, few involved entry into the sanctuary with blood. The reference to goats and calves reduces further the possibilities for the old testament service being referenced. Specifically, goats blood was only brought into the sanctuary on two occasions, both involving the Most Holy Place. The first service involving goat blood and entry into the sanctuary is the service to inaugurate the sanctuary (described in Leviticus chapters 7 and 8). The second is the Day of Atonement. 4. The entry of Jesus with blood secured eternal redemption. This shows the finality of the blood work Jesus is performing here. If there was more blood atonement to be provided, how could this be said in the first century? The last passage that spells out the Day of Atonement fulfillment of the cleansing of the sanctuary is the most clear yet. Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own In this passage we see the following: 1. It was necessary for the earthly sanctuary to be purified. It is necessary for the heavenly realities, of which the earthly were a copy, to be purified with better sacrifices. 2. The fulfillment of this cleansing is then spelled out. Christ has entered into heaven itself, to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Where in the sanctuary does the Bible teach that the "presence of God" exists? Lev 16:2and the Lord said to Moses, “Tell Aaron your brother not to come at any time into the Holy Place inside the veil, before the mercy seat that is on the ark, so that he may not die. For I will appear in the cloud over the mercy seat. The place of the Lord's presence in the Old Testament tabernacle was upon the mercy seat in the Most Holy Place. In order for Christ to have entered into the "presence of God" He must have entered into the Most Holy Place. This is further validated by the fact that the authors of the NT repeatedly referred to Jesus as sitting or standing on the right hand of God 3. This presentation of Christ before God, where He presents or offers Himself the completed sacrifice for sin, is contrasted with the entry of the high priest on the day of atonement. The high priest had to enter in once every year, again and again, year after year. However, Jesus entered once and presented Himself before God, and only had to do so once. Just as the earthly high priest would minister blood in God's immediate presence while cleansing the earthly sanctuary, so Jesus ascended to God and ministered the sacrifice of Himself that had been made on the cross. I will have to disagree with your conclusion. So we see from Hebrews that Jesus' death and ministration of His blood - made purification for sin - secured eternal redemption - cleansed the heavenly things with better sacrifices As this was all done before the time of the writing of Hebrews.