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Samie, I doubt anyone dialoging in this thread, has any delusions - hoping to change YOUR mind on this issue. I believe you are locked in to your view on this. I have been clarifying - for myself - my understanding concerning this issue of the "when". I tried to clear my preconceived opinions on this. I even prayed to approach it with an open mind. After much searching and praying, I believe the weight of Scripture evidence falls on the side of "plugged in" by faith WHEN we come to believe. Until that moment we are regarded by Heaven as - "dead in trespasses and sins" - "without hope" - "without Christ" - not yet "born again" - unwashed - "uncircumcised" (by Christ) . Certainly NOT "in Christ" from the moment of our physical birth, or from the day our forefather Adam sinned. WHEN we come to believe in Jesus, He then creates a new life in us, and we are "born again" from our condition of "dead in trespasses and sins". So long as Jesus is on the OUTSIDE of our hearts - knocking only, He cannot create that new life, and we cannot be "born again". Yes - God our Father through Jesus, helps us come to believe. He draws and pleads - by His spirit - convicting us. But we are STILL spiritually DEAD until that moment when we surrender to Him - "open the door to Him". So- we are NOT doing something "without Him". And we can unplug - turn off - at any time. If so - then we go right back to being "DEAD". While it is true that we all have the circuitry in place - the "wiring" as it were. We must throw the switch, before the "electricity" (power) can flow. And we must "abide in" Him. We must leave the switch "on". Imagine Jesus trying to explain to 11 Galilean fishermen, what a cell-phone is. I believe our brains have built-in heavenly "receivers". But just like our cell-phones, we don't have to answer a call. We can actually silence the "ringer". If I come across any Scriptures that have not yet been highlighted in this thread - I will post more, but I feel we have been repeating and repeating for some time now.

Hello, I thought it would be fun to share my imagination of what the Great Controversy is like from the point of view of the angels. I have been blessed while writing down my ideas in story format so hopefully someone else will be blessed by reading them. The ideas are derived from several sources including the Bible, Ellen White and other authors, but there are no direct quotes, so hopefully this isn't breaking the forum's rule of no quoting. Here goes the beginning of the story... At an unfathomable point in history, the beginning of time, God, His Son Jesus, and the Holy Spirit were already in existence. Ever since our creation, we have been actively studying the Godhead’s character and government through the close observation of Their personalities and Their work. We are free to spend as much time as we like exploring Their universe both physically and conceptually. An enigma that has become of special interest to us is how the Godhead came into existence. We have devoted many hours, possibly even years, to trying to figure out this mystery, but as much as we have tried, we have yet to succeed. One angel in particular has been more intensely involved in solving this puzzle than the rest of us. This angel was graciously granted many special talents and a very bright mind by God, so he could fill the coveted position of 2nd in command under Him. The high responsibility of demonstrating the Godhead’s character and method of governance to the entire living universe comes with this prestigious position; therefore we all call him Lucifer, which means to be a light-bearer. As the King’s general, Lucifer’s close connection with the Godhead gives him the distinct advantage of knowing inside information before the rest of us. We love to pick his brain for new ideas and suggestions of subsequent adventures, as well as frequently consult with him about our various discoveries throughout the universe. He always converses politely with us as we express our thoughts about recent explorations and lay out plans for future trips. Understandably, our cognizance of the strange yet increasingly significant phenomenon which was beginning to unfold before our very eyes was minimal. It all began hidden deep in the heart of our commanding general, whom we have grown to love and respect. Not only do we trust him as our confidante, but we sing in the choir, of which he is a masterful director. His beautiful voice and unique ability to harmonize with himself repeatedly captures our attention. But as time goes on the once imperceptible changes in Lucifer’s demeanor progressively become more apparent. As Lucifer’s destructive mentality slips into our awareness through his telltale body language and behavior we slowly begin realizing the seriousness of his contrary thought patterns toward God and His government. Our contemplations on the origins of God are eventually forgotten and replaced with uncertainty, unfamiliarity, and crazy emotions which all send shivers through up and down our spines. In an attempt to grasp this elusive mystery that is stirring our thoughts, we head to throne room of heaven to see what pertinent information we can gather. As we enter the heavenly throne room we are compelled to stand in reverent awe. We are standing in a room that looks more like a well-tended garden than the fanciest space inside the four walls of the most exquisite earthly palace. Its boundaries are invisible in the sense that it does not appear to have what earthlings would call walls or a ceiling. Everything around us is alive and sparkling with color, from the glassy floor beneath our feet and the emerald rainbow surrounding God’s throne to the crystal clear water seamlessly flowing under the trunks of the Tree of Life standing on either side of the river, and to the Tree of Life itself with its gorgeous fruit and vibrant green leaves. This indescribably beautiful scenery combined with the perfectly holy atmosphere always brings peace to our searching hearts and satisfaction to our hungry eyes. While all of our sensory channels are busily processing the aura of supreme majesty created by the soothing flood of light emanating from the throne of God, we find ourselves slowly walking toward the four living creatures who are continually glorifying God through their perfect obedience, trust, and reverence. The four living creatures, who are covered with eyes on their front and back sides and each having six wings, are undoubtedly aware of our growing concern for Lucifer, yet they are fully relying on God to take care of them in spite of their feelings. We have always felt completely natural trusting God implicitly with our entire beings, but for some unknown reason to us, we find ourselves amazed at the feeling of peace coming from the four living creatures and even from God Himself. The 24 beings, known as the elders, are here as representatives from other places in our grand universe, as we had already surmised based on their occupancy of the thrones closely surrounding God’s throne. Their faces lit with love and joy shine through the peaceful atmosphere around them while their complete serenity becomes almost as tangible as their presence. Everything and everyone seem to be saying through their mere existence that God is holy, pure, and righteous. While we are in the presence of God and all those who are worshiping Him at His throne, the bubbling confusion and agitation in our hearts temporarily leaves us alone. But when Lucifer walks in and everything changes instantaneously. His usual grand entrance distracts our thoughts so the uncomfortable feelings we were harboring before coming to God’s throne room quickly rush back to our conscious awareness. We perceive, by the way he holds himself while he tries to catch our eye contact upon entrance, that he is jealous of Jesus and wants more from the Godhead than just to be second in command. Our awe for him and respect for his authority used to make us want to bow down at his feet and fulfill his every wish, but recently his apparent effort to keep our attention focused on himself through the use of his remarkable God-given gifts of singing and directing the heavenly choir have been annoying us. Aggravatingly, we find our thoughts effortlessly switching from their negative trend into amazement for his talents when he uses that irritating ability of hitting just the right note at just the right moment. A tingling sensation moves down our spines and we become speechless as we are immediately carried off in the moment, almost to the point of forgetting where we are standing, until an impressive event interrupts our reverie. There is more to the story, but since it is still a work in progress I will post a little bit of it at a time. Enjoy!

The following is a chapter in my personal story. It is a story that requires some background to understand, so, I will give that. With the Presidency of Donald Trump and the attention that North Korea has been recently given by the world, in recent weeks, I have spent some time in reflecting on a 32 year-old event in which I married my present wife. As many of you know, we met and got married in Seoul, Korea, at a time when I was in the Army and she was teaching in the English Department of the SDA University. Background: The American military practices constantly to go to war. We call those "war games." Some units may spend 1/3 of their time in such practice, others may spend either more or less. When one is stationed in a country such as South Korea, those exercises may include the evacuation of U.S. civilian personnel. In such countries, those exercises are very important. My future wife and I had gone through a complex military process in order to get permission to marry. She had undergone a background check to see if in any way she was a security risk. She had undergone a medical examination in order to determine whether or not she had any dread disease. There had been other paperwork to establish that I was of sound mind. Permission had been granted. In our situation in South Korea, marriage it totally a civil, governmental function with no possibility of a religious aspect. In order to get married we would have to take a sheaf of paperwork to three (3) different Korean governmental offices in Seoul, have them issue and stamp and sign documents. After the 3rd office we would be married. Then we would need to take documents to the U.S. Embassy in Seoul for more administrative work to include a change in her passport status and visa. The morning came that we had scheduled to do all of this. That was the morning that they called one of those war games, to include the evacuation of U.S. civilians. I had a decision to make: Was I going to participate, or was I going to get married. If I did not participate, I would likely end my military service, if I got caught. I decided that the most important thing in my life was to get married. If I got caught, I would have to suffer the consequences. So, that is the decision that I made. What happened? I did not get caught. I was able to complete my time in the Army and 32 years later, I am still married to the woman that I married those many years ago. This is the first time I have told of this to anyone other than my wife. I did not tell her until many years later. Good decision. I would do it again.

See: http://spectrummagazine.org/article/2017/04/29/life-fred-lee Fred Lee was a fellow student with me at PUC, who died in March of this year. Why in the world am I placing a post about the death of a SDA in a section on SDA theology? To understand the answer to that question, you will have to read the article. It will not be easy reading. It raises very human questions that we often face in our spiritual journey that are not easy to answer. Some of those answers are neither fun nor are they pleasant. If you are looking for this, do not read the article. If you chose to read it, you will likely be challenged with questions for which you may not have a good answer.

Ii have heard stories how God used beautiful large stray dogs to protect people, i can easily imagine using lions, more than once. In Elisha's day God used bears to reprimand disrespectful young men. He used the man's own donkey to reprimand Balaam.

Recently an Adventist addressed the UN on Rwanda. See: http://spectrummagazine.org/article/2017/04/23/adventist-hero-rwanda’s-genocide-shares-faith-un

i do not know why the genocides in Africa receive so little concern, while if the same thing were to happen in any European nation the outrage would prompt immediate action. This story speaks of a miracle of forgiveness in the heart of someone who hoped for outside help and it was denied.

When my beliefs (head knowledge) about God translate into life-changing experiences, He becomes very real to me; to the point where my beliefs are no longer just some empty values I hold, but are real principles that shape who I am and how I choose to live my life. For example, my beliefs turn into life-changing experiences that make God very real to me when I am minding my own business and all of the sudden an impression will pop into my head out of the blue to pray for someone near me who I never interacted with before. Or, when I am struggling with something in my life, and an impression comes up from seemingly nowhere (I am usually not thinking about that thing at the time) that makes something clearer than it had been before or directs me to a path I had not thought of before.

WHEN he came to believe, he came to regard his OLD LIFE as dead. Paul's OLD LIFE he regarded as "crucified" - LIKE CHRIST.

I think you are stretching the meaning of this verse. I agree that without God, salvation is impossible. But - while salvation is ONLY possible with God's grace, it doesn't mean that all are born saved - it simply means that salvation is possible.

Thank you. My original intent in writing this story was to remind people that God is the originator of good, not evil. It really saddens me when people blame God when things are not going well in their lives. So I thought that writing about how I picture God in the Bible might help and encourage other people who might be going through a rough time in their lives. One series that I really enjoy listening to and that has helped me see God in a new way is called The Picture of God in all 66 by Graham Maxwell. Here is the link to his audio series if you would like to listen to them. Pineknoll Audio Picture of God in all 66

We are learning that he is rightly fitted for his position as the heavenly choir leader as streams of other beings just like us file into the room in perfect order and assemble themselves into the ranks he has set up just for this purpose. Once again our spirits are lifted to the highest of the heights as he directs the harpist to set the tone and the choir, under his direction, sings the most elegant and harmonious piece of music we have ever set ears to. We could stand here and listen to the choir’s music for hours, but there seems to be an increasingly distracting undertone that is sweeping through the beautiful and solemn notes of praise to God. Exactly what that distracting undertone is evades our understanding, but we are positive we are not mistaking its presence. As the days go by (could be years or even centuries in earth time) the situations that have been developing behind the scenes are now becoming more open. The discussions in the throne room seem to be increasing in frequency. We are invited to be a part of some of them, but not others. Up until now it had never even occurred to us to question the Godhead’s reasons for not including us in only some of their conversations and meetings. In fact, we have never felt left out or ignored because the Godhead has demonstrated over time that they would never do anything without first taking the best interest of the entire universe, including us, into account. But for some reason, which we are not sure we will ever understand, Lucifer that grand choir leader is trying to tempt us into second-guessing God’s true motives. He slyly asks insinuating questions such as: “Are we really the loved and valued members of the heavenly government as God says we are? Should God and Jesus have all of the say of what goes on in our kingdom just because they existed before us?” In our innocence we assume Lucifer’s questions to be so reasonable that we do not stop to consider that something deeper could be behind them, but after a while we begin to see how destructive his questions are becoming to the well-being of our beloved God and His government. Since no one has ever questioned God and his government before our understanding of where these questions are eventually going to lead our universe is very vague. In spite of the fact that we have never witnessed anything that reminisces of pain, sorrow, or selfishness, our suspicions lead us to believe that the consequences of Lucifer’s discordant attitude will be seriously unpleasant and even dangerous. As time continues, we notice there is a division forming between us. Some in our group are wont to believe what Lucifer is suggesting about God, while others are reminding us that God has never done anything that was not for our good. We are now beginning to find out just how much God and His Son Jesus are involved in this chain of events that is turning out to be an all-out war between Lucifer and his believers and the rest of us. For the very first time we are experiencing emotions which have unmasked themselves in ways we never imagined could exist. All sorts of actions and reactions ranging from lying to distrust are becoming a new part of our reality. We expect something powerful and extraordinary is about to happen because the Godhead now enters the throne room with new looks on Their faces which we cannot describe but the earthlings would well recognize as pain and distress. As they exit the throne room this time the mightiest one among us, Gabriel by name, leads the way and stands squarely in front of Lucifer as if ready for a full-on attack. As Gabriel hears the command from God, he obeys by placing his strong arm straight out in front of him and giving Lucifer, along with his followers, an unsuspecting shove that launches them into the emptiness beyond.