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2 Peter 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

And how 'bout 666

You have criticized the question and called it names, but your various assertions have only confirmed that the question is valid, even though you don't happen to like the question because it exposes a flaw in the man-made trinitarian theories that you somehow deem to be flawless, even though the Bible itself doesn't teach the trinity doctrine or make any claim that the trinity doctrine is flawless. I take it from what you said that you do actually believe that the actions of the Holy Spirit in the conception of Jesus should be considered as part of the fatherhood of "God the Father" as the people living at the time would have understood all of the actions of the Holy Spirit to be the actions of God himself. It's true that the New Testament does not say exactly that "the Spirit was the Father of Jesus". In the historical context in which the New Testament was written such a statement would have been considered very, very odd because the holy breath or wind was considered to be a part of God's own person just as His face was a part of God's own person. Such a statement would have been much like saying that "the Holy Face (of God) was the father of Jesus". However, the New Testament does say in Matthew chapter 1 that Jesus was begotten of the Holy Spirit and it uses the same Greek root word that is used 39 times in the genealogy of Joseph (verses 2-16) to say that "Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob", etc. Where verse 20 says, "for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost," the word translated as "conceived" lliterally means "begotten" and is the same Greek word used 39 times earlier in the same chapter to show the relationship between fathers and sons. Of course, you could argue that the people back then were too stupid to make the connection. But then, you asserted something very similar earlier today when you claimed that: And what words did you attribute to the Holy Spirit? "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased." So, if the Holy Spirit spoke audibly to Jesus claiming Jesus as his own "beloved Son", would that not be very, very similar to saying directly that the Holy Spirit is the father of Jesus? To be clear, because I believe that the Holy Spirit is an integral part of the Father (his holy breath) rather than a separate personality, I don't believe that anything written in the New Testament even remotely threatens the fatherhood of the Father in any way, unless you try to distinguish the Holy Spirit as a separate personality or person from the Father. Also, the New Testament speaks of the Spirit of Christ, which may be distinguishing in some way between the "breath" or Spirit of the Son and the "breath" (or Spirit) of the Father, and both of these may be referred to in various contexts as the holy "breath" or Holy Spirit.

The Jesuit bank robber?

Do I detect just the smallest hint of hostility here, or is it just passion? I'll assume the latter. If it is the former, I'll admit to sounding somewhat snarky; and I apologize. Believe me; I have agonized over this issue for more than 40 years; and have felt strongly about both sides of the issue. In my tenure with the JW's, I even doubted that Jesus was God. I'm over that, for sure. I doubt very much if - after this much dialogue - either of us will convince the other. At the risk of sounding blasphemous, I don't think its a salvational issue. As I've said before, God is far beyond our understanding. Whatever I believe now, if I get to the Kingdom and Jesus tells me He believes in a Trinity, it will be AMAZING how quickly I will see and understand His point of view; and I will BELIEVE! I like talking to you Wanderer. I'll be out of pocket for a week in the wilds on New Mexico. I'll be back in a week. Blessings to all.

That sounds like Peter attributed the "such a voice" to God the Father rather than to the Holy Spirit. Not so. The text says the voice came from heaven. It didn't say the voice came from the dove.

John 8:18 "I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me." "I" would be one, and "the Father" would be two. If "God is Spirit", and God is "our Father", and the Father is "the only true God" (John 17:3), THEN I would conclude that God the Father IS the Holy Spirit. He poured Himself INTO His Son Jesus, which enabled Jesus to dwell in us. In this way, God "has sent forth the spirit of His Son into our hearts". 1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. (1Co 8:6 NKJ)

Gary, I have spent many years serving on the Ethics Committee of the VA hospital where I worked, and a shorter period of time serving on the Ethics Committee of a private (not SDA) hospital where I once worked. Our struggles were real. At times we did not have a perfect solution. We simply had to take things as they were at that moment and attempt to forge a response to the question which had been brought to us. Writing from this perspective I find your perspective, as you have stated it in the post above to be both simplistic and factually incorrect in most (not 100%) of what you have posted. But, that is O.K. We can disagree here in CA.

Why post, you ask? It's private posting between members only. The concept is good. Less fighting and more geniality in interconnecting communication. I skimmed through the list of posters (names not given) and saw this guy... .....familiar to anyone?

though I understand the concept behind Adventist Risk Mgmt's preference for a nice, safe baptism in an indoor tank, the "Five Things to Consider for Baptism in Natural Bodies of Water" seems oddly amusing when applied to the baptism of Jesus in the Jordan River...