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A myth, as I use the term may be either true or false. A myth should not be considered automaticly to be false. The following quote is part of that myth that surrounds Adventism and Ellen White. It should be pointed out that truth is not established by a miracle. A miracle may have a source that is not from God. On this basis, one should not base their belief in something on an alleged miracle. Some Seventh-day Adventist historians today, believe that this story of EGW and the Bible is not substantiated. IOW, we can not be certain that it actually happened. Perhaps it did happen. But, perhaps it did not happen. Therefore, I will suggest that we should take with caution any suggestion that it did happen. But, if it did, so what? That would not establish that God was the source.

Joe: I miss this and you are correct, there are Blacks who hate and are dangerous as well. But, in defense of black folks hatred is mainly because of how we have been treated. However, that does not justify hurting or killing anyone! That's what happened to me, and I only hurt my own people. Even using the N-word was bringing my people and myself down as well! Nothing good comes from hatred and the best example is Satan hating HIS CREATOR because HE wanted HIS CREATOR to make HIM equal with HIS SON! I am mortified over the words "picnic over grill?" I have never heard of such in my life! That got me friend. There are times when people will get angry over the stupidest things for no reason. I have been saying picnic all of my life and will continue to do so! You know ignorance is bliss and that's with all people, nation and tongues brother. I get on by black folks for some of their ridiculous reasons to blame everything on European or White people. You have to do your part in society yourself, no one is better than the other period! Yes, I stand up for the wrong and the untrue history about Ham's children, and I also stand up for the justice of Japheth children who die so I can be free! I will never forget that and none of us should! Love is colorful and is spreads joy to all. I think of people as I do flowers or fruit, even the different shades of the sky! We are a rainbow of love and that is where I stand and to be truthful to everyone! Oh! I wish I could have come to your picnic! Blessings!

While mentioned in other threads, this article from Ministry Magazine deserves to be re-emphasized - https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/2013/04/phoebe-was-she-an-early-church-leader

Hey, we will be sitting at the Welcome Table! I don't think we need either one up there! ? Blessings and Thank You!

The problem is that you do not listen to EGW when she says to take the Bible. You put her words over the Bible. If she is telling you that new light and understanding will come in the future you do not understand her at all. As I said earlier EGW wrote many things that were understood in her day. The pioneers, all of them open up the path for us to continue to follow by praying and allowing THE HOLY SPIRIT to lead us. The tools we have today allows us to correct the errors of the past. The reason why so many of our young people have left the church is many of the elders and leader putting this woman above the Bible. She pleaded time and time again not to do so, but to no avail. In her book, TM she also wrote about Daniel and Revelation and again, THE HOLY SPIRIT revealed to her that these books were not understood and would be just before YAHSHUA comes! She was correct, the true Hebrew language and its transliteration have open the way for a better understanding of truth. Yes, it has corrected many of the errors of the past. However, many have refused to accept that the SDA church has made errors like it is perfect and it is not! We like Israel doing the time of YAHSHUA do not see that our ways are not HIS and perfection comes through HIM! We overlook Eze Chapter Nine and Twenty Two! Moses death was hidden because they would have worship his grave over THE ALMIGHTY MOST HIGH! It is sad that when YAHWEH uses someone we look to them instead of unto THE ONE WHO gave the person the message. We act as if others are not able to receive truth or knowledge from THE HOLY SPIRIT unless they have some unusual powers. THE HOLY SPIRIT uses many people and have a diversity of gifts and some or chosen today to understand SPIRITUAL WISDOM! Many are called, but few are chosen because of blindness and pride holding on to doctrines and traditions that cannot save you! You cannot see that in the 1800s a spiritually minded woman used the word derive because knowledge was beginning to increase but not to its fullest potential! Now it is known that the Greek word is the same as the original Paleo Hebrew word Babel. Satan wanted the name Nimrod and confusion to be forgotten collectively! Babel was to be understood as again a defiant people against truth! Human beings represented the number six, losing the number seven perfection and Nimrod was the beast and six first! The next imperfection number six was the papacy who collected the false religion of Nimrod back together and her daughters only changed a little but will be a part of their evil mother again! After losing her political powers or kingdom she held on to her ecclesiastic powers which were the most important part of her existence! All was the Will of THE MOST HIGH to show that only HE should be worship and HIS Law and Commandments are forever! HIS SON does the work of HIS FATHER and HE died to prove this point! The final imperfect six is the beast, who will eradicate all evil religions and expose Satan's true intentions like the image of Nebuchadnezzar. For the final time, he will use this man to do his will. He allows the beast to have his power, seat, and authority to stop all religions on the earth. He calls up a false prophet, that has power and these two foes work together and declare that only the beast must be worship! The papacy and her daughters must be destroyed because they claim that their mother is god and they two have powers. All the other nations, people and tongues who rejected truth follows the beast. The true god will win the final battle on earth and Armageddon has begun. The beast wins the battle, sits in the Temple, but wait, he is not Satan! Satan's diabolical plan is to use the beast to defeat the one he used to teach and train the beast! That's how he works, using human beings for his ultimate goal; then he turns on them and stabbed them in the back when they are no use to him anymore! Now, its time and the false prophet tells the people to make an image to the beast. They make the image, but wait! The image becomes alive!! Just like the serpent in the Garden, the deceiver deceives the whole world, including the beast! The beast is not to be worship, it is the image to the beast and you will be killed if you do not bow down! The image is Satan, he has pulled wool over their eyes and he is the center of worship! Now, he tells them all to prepare for the celestial war! He knows YAHSHUA'S is on the way! Human beings are no match for their CREATOR and both the beast and the false prophet are taken immediately and put in the Lake of Eternal Fire! The rest of the nations are destroyed by looking on HIS GLORY! Human beings cannot look on YAHSHUA in HIS GLORY with sin and they all fall dead and the birds eat their flesh! Hey, where is the image? He is known for who he really is - Satan, who now must go to prison where his angels were house! The earth is a dump and he is cast now for the first time into the bottomless pit, which is not the earth! Remember the beast and the false prophet are still burning and the birds are eating the flesh of all the wicked people! The saints both the living and the dead collectively are gather on a cloud to be taken back with YAHSHUA to Heaven! All these events are taken place so wake up! This is what EGW said to take the Bible and the final truth will be revealed, but sadly many will reject it! Because of holding on to the past instead of understanding the future by THE POWER of THE HOLY SPIRIT! Again, it is your choice, I am just a presenter! Don't be fooled! Prayers, and understanding for the truth from ON HIGH! Blessings!

That may have been true in the Middle Ages. I don't see that happening today. The chief persecutor of Christianity and Judaism by far in today's world is Islam.

The White Estate has the Bible that it is said that EGW held above her head. It has been weighed at 18 1/2 pounds. That is less than the 3 gallons of milk that HCH says is the minimum that the Bible weighs. It is far less than the 40 pounds that has been alleged to be its weight. What this demonstrates is that even if there is some truth in this myth, there is also error. The story that we have today can not be depended upon.

Lou: Jesus said, “Come to Me all you who labor and I will give you rest.” But then He talks about learning and obedience. Then He says, “My yoke is easy” (based on Matthew 11:28-30). Is this really easy? Is it really light (Matt 11:30)? Graham: In comparison with the many rules and regulations the […] The post Questions and Answers (12:12) appeared first on Jon Paulien's Blog. View the full article

The following quote is what A.G. Daniels, President of the General Conference, said on July 19, 1919:

I don't wish to bring such solemn truths down to the level of opinion, so I'll not say much more. The Bible indicates that the thoughts of men's hearts will be revealed in this judgment. So there will be much that no one had been able to observe that will be publicly examined. God has been accused by the highest former official in His government, and only He knows the level of transparency that it will take to fully vindicate His character in the eyes of all, to where even His enemies will voluntarily bow the knee.

Transparency? For who? For the angels? The angels, good and bad, have watched this little drama from the beginning. How stupid are they? For the "intelligences of other worlds"? IF they exist, and IF they can watch, they can clearly see what has happened on our world. I repeat--"How stupid are they?" For Humanity? There are no humans at the IJ, so it is clearly not to demonstrate God's transparency to humanity. No humans are aware of the event, so how can it demonstrate anything to people who do not know it is happening. (I say "no humans" because the number of people that think this is happening, out of about 7 BILLION, is so infinitesimally small as to be "not statistically significant.") For Satan? He already knows. (But does not care) For the record, IF the IJ is happening (and, for the record, I for one do not believe in an IJ) it is clearly not to show "transparency." Just my opinion.

The deaf hear ? Luk 7:22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.

Transparency. Daniel 7 not only describes the scene, but it gives the context of the investigation. Enough clues have already been given, earlier in the chapter, to positively identify the bloody persecutor of the "saints" (God's own holy people) as the papacy, an organisation of professing Christians! So the context indicates a situation of "Christians" against Christians, making it necessary to identify who are the real Christians, and who are the hypocrites. The outcome, as stated at the end of the chapter, is that judgment is given in favour of the saints of the Most High. In other words, the real Christians are vindicated, and their hypocritical persecutors are condemned and stopped in their tracks. The whole process happens in the presence of the angels, and presumably the intelligences of other worlds, so all can see the justice of God's verdict concerning each individual. Obviously, this has to be an individual judgment, in order to be fair, not a summary condemnation of all Catholics for instance.

Why does God even need to do an investigative judgement? He know all things - past, present, and future; He always has. He foreknow who was and wasn't going to be saved before the foundation of the world. He did not predestine anyone's salvation; we all have a free will. God just knew what we would choose before we knew it. He doesn't need to investigate anyone or anything.

PHKRAUSE yes my son and I also grilled out at our house=== some veggie dogs===had potato salad==cold slaw===corn chips ===and juice dgrimm60

Just looking over the comments on the first page seems to indicate to me that some people might be missing an essential point on which the article perhaps only touches, but which is essential to our understanding of the entire matter. In the early Christian church, especially according to Paul, there were NO higher or lower positions. Jesus Himself had washed His disciples' feet, demonstrating that the greatest is the one who takes the lowest place. Thus, everyone who served the church would have had to be considered equal. So it's no wonder that Paul spoke of Phoebe, whose church leadership function was local, as one in an equal position with himself, despite his more extensive ministry. I would add one thing. If, despite all of the evidence cited in the article, one still has doubts as to whether or not Phoebe was really such a prominent church leader, we need only look to Ellen White as a more modern -- and thus more verifiable -- example. Read the 6-volume biography of her life, and see if it doesn't settle the question of what God may call a woman to do. Obviously, there are no upper limits on that.

The following is from my personal experience. Since SDA membership is a local congregation matter, practice varies from congregation to congregation. Alcohol - I know of no congregation that disfellowshipped members for alcohol consumption. But they would be excluded from leadership positions. I suppose though, were a member to be "in your face" about it, such as ordering wine at the restaurant with other members, bringing beer to the church-family picnic or pouring a scotch for oneself during a pastoral visit, the congregation would likely take disciplinary action. I wouldn't recommend bringing one's own fermented wine to communion. Working on the Sabbath - again likely this would exclude one from leadership positions, but I doubt the church body would be moved to disfellowship. But if one is being disruptive, such as taking business calls on sabbath and loudly discussing and negotiating business matters on the phone during the Sabbath fellowship luncheon, the congregation may take action. I wouldn't recommend passing out business cards and advertisements in the church lobby after the service. Trinitarianism - no one cares if you keep your views to yourself. But if you're disrupting sabbath school with anti-trinitarian views, and if during sabbath afternoon fellowship you won't shut up about arianism or whatever one's pet theory is, the congregation may take action. Transsubstantiation - if you keep your beliefs to yourself, no one will care. If, during communion you yell out "hoc est corpus meum", the congregation may take action. Infant baptism - if you baptize your baby at home, no one will really care. But if during a baby dedication you rush to the front of the church to sprinkle the baby with water before the deacons can intercept you and wrestle you to the ground, the congregation may take action. Multiple wives - sex, divorce, adultery, etc. are about the only things that I've seen resulting in a disfellowshipping. I believe few congregations in North America would countenance polygamy. EGW - I've known many SDAs who don't acknowledge EGW as a prophet. As long as they don't disrupt sabbath school class or pester people with their pet theories, no one cares.

5 Things You Didn't Know about The Golden Gate Bridge_2 On May 27, 1937, the Golden Gate Bridge connecting San Francisco and Marin County, Calif., opened to fanfare and a week’s worth of celebration. Here are 5 surprising facts you didn’t know about this marvel of engineering that, for many years, was the longest suspension bridge in the world... Eleven Workers Died During its Construction Safety was important since the construction of the Golden Gate was extremely dangerous, and all workers were required to use face and hand cream to protect their skin, eat special diets and wear goggles on the job. Several months before the bridge opened, one worker died when a derrick fell and landed on him. Collapsing scaffolding caused many workers to fall a few weeks later,; this incident killed 10, even though safety nets were installed. You Can Tell the Weather by Looking at the Bridge The construction of the Golden Gate Bridge allows it to expand and contract with the weather, so you can eyeball the day’s temperature just by looking at the bridge. The deck can either fall or rise by up to 16 feet, depending on how warm it is. However, using this system to see whether you need a coat won’t be terribly accurate since the temperature on the deck is around two hours behind because of the bridge’s thermal mass. The Bridge Is Equipped With Its Own Foghorns Two old-fashioned foghorns that are manually operated are located mid-span and at the south tower. They are no longer used, but the foghorns are used to help ships steer out of the bay into the ocean without colliding with the bridge. The Military Had Suggestions on What Color to Paint the Golden Gate Bridge The Golden Gate Bridge is painted International Orange to make it more visible for ships, but the other suggested color might have been more glaring and certainly would not have fit in with the surrounding landscape. The U.S. Navy wanted it to be painted in yellow and black stripes like a bumblebee, while the Army Air Corps suggested stripes in white and red, which would have made it look like a giant candy cane. Thousands of People Walked Across It on Opening Day There was a week’s worth of partying in San Francisco when the bridge opened, starting on the first day when around 15,000 people each hour were allowed to walk its length with some of them on unicycles and others on roller skates or stilts. They paid 25 cents each for the privilege, and vendors along the road served around 50,000 hot dogs to the massive crowds. In the afternoon, 42 Navy ships passed under the bridge, and the day culminated in a festive fireworks display.

Be that as it may, that is not the point I am advancing. IMO the early Israelites did not see or recognized, and would have rejected, any "symbolism" in the sanctuary. In fact, the reason for the sanctuary is clearly given by God: "Let them build me a sanctuary, that I may dwell among them," He DOES NOT say "Let them build me a sanctuary, that I may outline/symbolise the plan of salvation."

I appreciate your perspective. The state of the SDA Church today is indeed rather sorry, but I trust that God still has His plans for its purification.

True on both counts. However: 1. This understanding may be a result of hindsight. IOW it seems pretty obvious now. 2. Isaiah lived 830ish years after Moses. By this time the two themes were well established in an uncombined state. So I maintain that the "average Israelite" saw no symbolism in the sanctuary service.

Like all of us, sometimes I get shown "unpleasant things." Noting all the "kerfluffle" going on in the Dark Day thread, I open my Testimonies to continue my read and find this on page 424 of 3T. It may be interesting reading to read the whole section, but this is just a sample. Discussions to be Avoided You have loved to debate the truth and loved discussions; but these contests have been unfavorable to your forming a harmonious Christian character, for in this is a favorable opportunity for the exhibition of the very traits of character that you must overcome if you ever enter heaven. Discussions cannot always be avoided. In some cases the circumstances are such that of the two evils the choice must be made of the least, which is discussion. But whenever they can be avoided, they should be, for the result is seldom honoring to God. People who love to see opponents combat, may clamor for discussion. Others, who have a desire to hear the evidences on both sides, may urge discussion in all honesty of motive; but whenever discussions can be avoided, they should be. They generally strengthen combativeness and weaken that pure love and sacred sympathy which should ever exist in the hearts of Christians although they may differ in opinions. Discussions in this age of the world are not real evidences of earnest desire on the part of the people to investigate the truth, but come through the love of novelty and the excitement which generally attends discussions. God is seldom glorified or the truth advanced in these combats. Truth is too solemn, too momentous in its results, to make it a small matter whether it is received or rejected. To discuss truth for the sake of showing opponents the skill of the combatants is ever poor policy, for it does but very little to advance the truth. Opponents to the truth will show skill in misstating their opponent. They will make the most solemn, sacred truths the subject of ridicule. They will generally sport and deride precious, sacred truth, and place it in so false a light before the people that minds that are darkened by error and polluted by sin do not discern the motives and objects of these designing men in thus covering up and falsifying precious and important truth. Because of the men who engage in them, there are but few discussions that it is possible to conduct upon right principles. Sharp thrusts are too frequently given by both parties, personalities are indulged in, and frequently both parties descend to sarcasm and witticism. The love of souls is lost in the greater desire for the mastery. Prejudice, deep and bitter, is often the result of discussions. I have beheld angels grieved as the most precious jewels of truth have been brought before men utterly incapable of appreciating the evidences in favor of the truth. Their entire being was at war with the principles of truth; their natures were at enmity with it. Their object in discussing was not that they might get hold of the evidences of the truth themselves or that the people might have a fair understanding of our true position, but that they might confuse the understanding by placing the truth in a perverted light before the people. There are men who have educated themselves as combatants. It is their policy to misstate an opponent and to cover up clear arguments with dishonest quibbles. They have devoted their God-given powers to this dishonest work, for there is nothing in their hearts in harmony with the pure principles of truth. They seize any argument they can get with which to tear down the advocates of truth, when they themselves do not believe the things they urge against them. They bolster themselves up in their chosen position, irrespective of justice and truth. They do not consider that before them is the judgment, and that then their ill-gotten triumph, with all its disastrous results, will appear in its true character. Error, with all its deceptive policies, its windings and twistings and turnings to change the truth into a lie, will then appear in all its deformity. No victory will stand in the day of God, except that which truth, pure, elevated, sacred truth, shall win to the glory of God.

Morwenna, I will attempt to again responds to your question as to the central beliefs that are required to be considered as Seventh-day Adventist: * The central issue here is that the individual congregation decides who is a SDA member. The SDA denomination does not have a centralized authority that makes this decision. This decision is not made by SDA Clergy. It is made by the local congregation. * In actual fact, some SDA members believe that the decision as to member ship should be based upon compliance with the so-called 28 Fundamentals. These people may not want to allow any difference on even one of the 28. Others may be willing to allow some differences. This position, in my opinion is wrong. The intention of the people who wrote the so-called 28 was NOT to make it a test of fellowship. Those who believe that it should be such, are essentially making it a creed. This is wrong. * My practice, over many years of ministry is to see the so-call 13 statements in the Baptismal Covenant as being the basis for joining the SDA Church. Even this allows for some freedom and differences in understanding. Those 13 are not clear and explicit in every detail. It should be noted while this use of the 13, is not a statement of reasons for removal from membership. * In actual practice today, some SDA clergy and individual congregations admit people into SDA membership more freely that would be indicted by this 13. Morwenna, the bottom line is that a definitive answer to your question can not be given that applies to every congregation in the SDA Church.

This thread had developed in several directions, all of which deserve responses. In this post, I am responding to a post made last Thursday by Gustave in which he associated the Jehovah Witnesses, the Christadelphians, the Church of God and Armstrong's World Wide Church of God with Adventism and William Miller. In commenting on his post, I suggested agreement, with minor disagreements. In this post, I will expand on where I am on this issue. Generally, I express my position in simple terms, such as this: With the failure of Christ to return, the followers of William Miller went in a number of directions. Some returned to their previous denominations. Some gave up on God and religion. Others united into newer, smaller religious groups, some which do not exist today. The largest group of people that may be traced back to William Miller is the Seventh-day Adventist Church. The second largest group that remains today is the Advent Christian group. In this simple statement, I do not include some of other groups that Gustave mentioned as I place their beginnings much later in time than William Miller. An example of this is Armstrong's World Wide Church of God. However, the term "Adventist" can be used in more than one sense. It is often used to specifically refer to the SDA denomination. In addition, it is correctly used in a generalized sense to refer to religious groups that believe in a 2nd Advent. This valid definition expands the meaning beyond the SDA denomination. The "gold standard" in the study of U.S. Religion is: J. Gordon Melton, The Encyclopedia of American Religions. The 1st edition was published in 1978 and the 9th edition was published in 2017. My personal copy is the 3rd edition, which will be my reference point in my post today. Beginning on page 77, in an eleven (11) page discussion of the Adventist family of religious groups, Melton discusses which groups he believes should be included in the larger Adventist family. He expands beyond what Gustave has proposed. But, he generally includes the groups that Gustave had mentioned. Then, on pages 511 - 555 he again addresses the Adventist Family of religious groups. In this section, he further divides the Adventists into the following groups: Sunday Adventists (2), Seventh-day Adventists (7), Church of God Adventists (22), Sacred Name Movement (12) Jehovah's Witness Groups (13), Southcottites (3) Other Adventists (5), British Israelism (13). My listing of Adventist groups probably more fits this listing than it does the earlier listing that Milton has given us. This is some of the background for my comment to the effect that I had some minor disagreements with the listing of Gustave.

And then there was Phoebe, recognized by Paul as a minister and leader in the NT Church. Just as some seek to now minimize and withhold recognition of EGW according to how she was recognized by Church leadership in her day, translators over the centuries have defined Phoebe as a mere servant and helper so as not to give her due recognition as Paul had intended. Everyone should read this article. If you already have, read it again. If you haven't and don't want to. ask yourself why you are avoiding it?