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Glad this is being done. My only concern is will it really, honestly, present Seventh-day Adventism, or will it be what Southern College and the Adventist theological Society wish that Adventism would be. Once there was a New England settlement that decided to incorporate into a town. As they worked out the town's structure there was a disagreement over what kind of church they wanted. Some wanted a church where only official doctrine was taught and preachers very orthodox. There were others who wanted a church that allowed anyone who thought they had a message from God to share and where the members evaluate it's value to them. They believed that church should be a place for a free exchange of ideas and as long as they were not fanatic, people could believe what they wished. The two groups agreed that this town should not have one church but two. One church that would toe the line, and that became the Washington NH Congregational church. The other church where there was a freedom of ideas and members took their own responsibility with how to respond to what was being taught grew into what we consider our first Seventh-day Adventist church. As the Millerite movement spread in different communities many who accepted Miller's teaching were kicked out of their churches. These formed themselves into churches of outcasts of many ideas, and they decided to form their own church were there were only a few "Landmarks" or "Pillars" and outside of these they became more like that church from Washington NH. (Now, there were some Seventh-day Baptist communities, such as Lincklaen Center NY, where these same issues became an issue and which might actually be the first Seventh-day Adventist church, but we don't have the exact information to see if the Lincklaen Center church or similar churches in other Sabbath communities to see if it was before or after the Washington NH church starting to keep the Sabbath. ) But the spirit of free inquiry and discussion that the Washington NH church decided on before they knew about Miller or the Sabbath, is what our pioneers formed. Thus there are many shades of Adventism. At our high points we have learned to share the spirit of the Washington NH church. At our low points such as 1888, 1922, 2015, books such as "With Cloak and Dagger" "Us vs. Them" lists that people like Elder Kirkpatrick and others in the popular last generation or Fulcrum7 etc. post. (These misrepresent Seventh-day Adventism by placing ALL of us into one of two groups. Either we are 100% with them otherwise we are 100% Fordites, and they use extreme language in both lists and you are either faithful their sub-group, or where you are 100% at another unfaithful extreme, and if you don't see yourself in either group you are being deceived by the other group.) where one or another of us believes that our version of Adventism is the only true form and others need to be forced to comply. Sadly that spirit was the spirit of the Congregational church of Washington NH, not the spirit of the Washington NH church that we call the first Seventh-day Adventist church.

I have just finished reading this book. It is FANTASTIC!!! I'm not about to throw out my other books on Revelation (not that I have that many). I will confess that there is one which has dropped a notch or two (Kenneth H. Maahs "Of Angels, Beasts and Plagues") a good book but these next ones I will recommend are the "must reads." I usually say that if I want to study things out in commentaries I like to read the Anchor Bible, the Interpreter's Bible. The New International Bible Commentary, and the SDABC. But I'd like to make this recommendation for the study of Revelation: Dr. Tonstad's commentary, a hard to find book from the 1960s but which is a very thoughtful commentary on Revelation: George McCready Price "The Time of the End". The next is hard to find recordings but which float around, the "Last Days Event Seminar" from the 1976 Southern New England Campmeeting. I also got a copy of "The Great Courses" on the Apocalypses" by Craig Koester (He also wrote the Anchor Bible on Revelation, which Dr. Tonstad's resources.) If you can get these 4 resources you will have a fantastic foundation to teach Revelation to others. Koester's classes does more than cover the text but also gives a history of interpretations. I think that he could have also included how St. Augustine's views caused the church for centuries to not take Revelation seriously. He does mention some things that as Seventh-day Adventists find of interest; that is how Joachim of Flore's interpretation diverted from St. Augustine's and again got the church to look at Revelation and to use historism and through mostly the Franciscans, then into a Protestant Advent movement in England in the 1700s (which Sir. Isaac Newton was a part of), is were we got our traditional interpretations of Revelation. (Koester does more of a passing over without connecting the dots, but we as Adventists can see this. By the way, I don't think he mentioned this, maybe he did, but the official view of the Catholic church was that Joachim himself was NOT a heretic, but that his teachings are heresy and anyone who studies his work is a heretic. The way this view affected the Franciscans who loved his work is what opened the door to our typical Daniel and Revelation Seminar.)

I am ready to toss out all my other books on Revelation. This latest release from Dr. Tonstad is the easiest yet that explains that the book of Revelation is just that- a revelation of the character of God that sets the record straight

GHansen: I just found your post. Yes, despite the horrors of war, it tends to bring out either the best or the worst in people. People seem to suffer if they forget war heroes. I think that if they had a choice Oswald Boelcke and Manfred von Richthofen would have preferred their stories to have been more like the story "Chariots of Fire" (Boelcke was actually training for the 1916 Olympics when the war broke out), than the story that Iife (and death) gave them. But their (and other airmen on both sides) have shown that you can still be a kind and caring person even in the ugliness of war. And that Boelcke could still live his life by the motto "For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ..."

8thdaypriest (Rachel) has left the forum. she posts sometimes on another non-denominational forum.

Sad to say Joe, that was not coming from a Democrat that was coming from a person you call your sister in THE MOST HIGH! There will be no parties in Heaven or in the New Jerusalem. Your hatred because of my views is also very sad. I have a right to my choice as you have a right to yours. The problem is when you push your religious views on others. How many time have I heard Adventist preach about religious freedom? How many times have I seen you write about it is wrong for the Protestants and the Papacy to force us to keep Sunday? However, the Bible does not state that but if it did then your views of abortion and homosexual would have merit. It doesn't! You cannot continue to play this game, I have the letters in my email that you and I talked and how you did not like how Trump spoke. Who are you to keep people from coming to this land? Your ancestors did who came to any part of North America that also includes Canada! Your ancestors came with evil content and took the Indians land. They were given blankets with small pox and they saw that the Indians would easy become alcoholic's. You all make it like you are better then other people. You accuse BLM because two of the woman who started it are homosexuals. Homosexual is a sin but just like with people keeping Sunday we must with kindness show that they are doing wrong. Stop judging the Bible say don't judge or you will indeed be judge. Are you saved yet? Have you been sealed? None of us live in a glass house, the Bible said we all have sinned. YAHWEH does not force you to change, neither does THE HOLY SPIRIT. I would love for you and Photodue to show in the Bible that you have the right to force anyone to obey your belief! Just show me! Trump did not have some magic wand nor or you in a occult. That too is wrong. What's in your heart or your mind it was already their. It just took someone like Trump to bring it out. I know because of the things you said in your comments about the Canaanites. You want to refuse that YAHWEH came to them first. Well Melchizedek was the only High Priest mention in the order of YAHSHUA, he was one of the Canaanites tribe called the Jebusite. Jerusalem was build even before him and Salem was nice abbreviation that if you look it up it is Jerusalem! He was not Shem the myth that is told or anyone else but a Black man. Then the lie about Ham being a homosexual, the Scriptures is very clear. Ham and his brothers was outside the tent. Canaan was inside and that is why Ham went inside. Canaan was his baby boy and it appeared he was laughing at his grandfather being naked. There were no clothes inside the tent to cover Noah. Ham call for his two older brothers. The Bible clearly states they got a robe came backward and covered their father. When Noah woke up it was Canaan he curse. Canaan would never rule his brothers, he and his children would always served them double portion. The word servant is to serve, YAHSHUA said HE IS A SERVANT. Canaan also had to pay tribute to his brothers. Now he only had to serve his uncles not pay tributes to them. All the Asian people are from Ham. The Turks are not! That is why the language is Afrasian because it is trace back to Afrika! Why, I refuse to get with you and others with any type unkind hatred war is because that is not what YAHWEH wants. I do not hate you, Photodue or the Republican Party. I don't even hate Trump. I do hate his character and how he lies and cause over 2000 deaths. I hate that he thinks you and the Republican people who follow him are disgusting and now he does not have to shake your hand. I hate that you cannot see that he down plays the mask, yet all those who sit behind have to wear one. Why is that? In the audience most don't have one on. Remember it is a hoax! I hate how he treats his children. I am sadden by your character because I have seen you change since we first started commented in this forum. We were friends and that is what hurts me the most, I've lost your friendship over views that are not Bible base. No where in the Bible does it say that we must force people to obey our false religious views. They are false because the Bible says do not hate your brother or sister. We are NOT IsraEL of old! YAHWEH told them to go and destroy the Canaanites and they didn't do all that HE said to do! YAHWEH also used heathen nations to destroy Jerusalem twice and there will be third and final time. The beast will destroy the city and a messenger will cast a millstone for it to sink into the sea. Jerusalem is Babylon who has killed the prophets and the apostles! Finally, let me say this to you. I love you but I will tell you when you are against YAHWEH and HIS WORD! If you want to become indifference that is on you. If you want to spue out ugly hateful words against people who you personally know nothing about that is between YAHWEH and you. If you feel that you are self righteous to put children in cages and then cry about abortion again you have to stand before YAHWEH and prove and explain it. If you want to attack gays people but not adulterers also people who do the same thing as homosexual do which is oral sex (that the Bible says it is just as sinful. Have you read Rom Chapter 1 you should!) Many Evangelic do threesomes and sneak around being with men the Bible says that is unseemly. Do you know what unnatural use mean? Read how you are suppose to have relationship in Gen Chapter 1 only the way you make a baby. Find in the Bible that you suppose to do it any other way! I know the Bible says to take the moat out of your eyes before you get the beam out of someone else. I repeat sin is sin if break any you will be lost. Change your life and then pray for the sinner! We all need prayer. My heart is sadden for you and for Photodue. Blessed man I feel he is indecisive. We were friends too but angry can make one change. Photodue and I have never really seen eye to eye on many things. Some comments I have agreed with him over the years. But he judges everyone else but don't see himself. That is sad! Well I love you Joe also Photodude and good ole Blessed man. I want us all to pass the test and be save. I will stand to tell you what the Bible says because that is what we should stand on! Blessings to you all with love wannabe historian (I kinda like it)!

? Promise Life, righteousness and honour Proverbs 21:21 He that followeth after righteousness and mercy findeth life, righteousness, and honour.

Jesus here refers to a class who have no desire to escape from the slavery of sin. By indulgence in the corrupt and vile their natures have become so degraded that they cling to the evil and will not be separated from it. The servants of Christ should not allow themselves to be hindered by those who would make the gospel only a matter of contention and ridicule. {MB 129.1}

The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.(Gal. 5:19-26)

Theophilus: I truly don't want to vent but it is sad the things they say. It always about abortion, that isall they talked about. Yet, they don't see they are killing live children at the border. Locking them up in to cages like animals. Then Photodude is screaming about the Adventistan that I should be condemn but he can say what he please and fume hatred. It is sad to me! What is worst these Adventist had this hatred about me and color folks all along. Trump rhetoric did not make them hate, they already had it in their hearts. He just brought it out! They want to say that this forum is ruin and now they want to run. Why? Because I stood up to them and they could not tear me down. If they would stay off the subject of Trump I would. He is showing on this forum what they truly had hidden in their heart. They are angry and want to run because they can stand that someone is showing what they truly are you know like looking in a mirror. They run but they can't hide, because if they don't change they will be crying for the rocks to fall on them! Why? They will rather be killed then to face the WRATH of THE LAMB. Rev 6:16, 17 They are not running from me because I have no power. They are running from YAHWEH because what they have become is showing up! It is guilt! If you are not wrong why run what are you afraid of? What make so vicious that you defend someone who think you are disgusting? I just want them to stop harping on abortions when they are murdering little children and locking them up in cages because of their color! Blessing but truly sad!

? promise Shalt not stumble Proverbs 4:12 When thou goest, thy steps shall not be straitened; and when thou runnest, thou shalt not stumble.

Andrews University is conducting a survey in an attempt to study SDA attitudes toward certain political issues. Take the opportunity to let your political attitudes be counted. To either learn more, or to participate, click on the following link: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/SDAVote2020 NOTE: This thread, in this forum, is not the place to express your political opinions.

Ms Marie: What you have stated is not standard practice in the SDA denomination. A question for you: Has that congregation also asked you to show your Income tax returns to prove that you pay a faithful tithe? I ask because I suspect the congregation that you reference is an "outlier" and is not practicing standard SDA policy. If you are living in an area that has a number of other SDA congregations, I will suggest that you may want to consider joining another SDA Congregation. If you are living in the Metro-Sacramento area, I will suggest that you consider joining the Gracepoint congregation in Rocklin.

MSMARIE My suggestion is to ask your self ===does this music that I am listening to help my mind to up lift JESUS==== all I can say is to pray and ask THE HOLY SPIRIT to lead you to understanding=== we have advice to guard what goes in to our minds both music and entertainment=== dgrimm60

I have a few different books on Revelation and Daniel, and find none of them to say nasty things about Catholics or anything about Muslims at all one way or the other! I have a SIL who's Catholic and she used to tell my Mom that we have to be Catholic to be able to go to heaven, yet she is one really beautiful Christian. I've also in my 60 years of being a SDA have never heard one sermon that made Catholics sound like bad people either. What I have heard is other denominations that have done so and also individual SDAs that have said things that were not very nice about Catholics. As far as Jon Paulien is concerned I understand that he's one of the top interpreters of Revelation?? Having said all that I pretty much enjoy all books on D&R!!

@BlessedMan He writes well and I have some of his other books, too. I think what I appreciate best is his ability to leave off the Adventistspeak so that everyone can have a go at understanding the Revelation. He sees a bigger picture than just the nasty Catholics or the bad Muslims (which causes some people to get a hate-on for those believers). If you don’t like Jon Paulien’s take on Revelation you probably won’t enjoy this, either, although I think that Tonstad reaches farther than Paulien. He explores the concept of whether God is the sadistic despot many people fear after reading Revelation. I believe that who we believe God is will colour our own actions. Not only that, but I also believe that by misrepresenting God as vengeful and evil we make atheists of people. A pastor told me that a problem with the traditional Adventist understanding is trying to fit the understanding into history; some points seem to be a stretch for him to explain to non-believers. Without giving out too many spoilers I will stop here.

Thanks for posting this, Kevin. I also enjoy reading history/biographies like this. I wonder what roll God plays in the lives of men who exhibit extraordinary bravery in battle. Sometimes, I'm surprised at what turns up. I recall an account of a young private who was trapped behind enemy lines during the Arnhem fiasco. He lived for several weeks in the attics of homes as enemy soldiers chatted, smoked, etc. in the streets below. Every night, as he fell asleep, he would curse God, the generals, colonels, majors captains, lieutenants, sergeants and anyone else he felt had a hand in his present circumstances. Amazingly, he survived the war and lived a somewhat "ordinary" life. Truly, the sun rises on the just and unjust. Among the greatest commentaries on Romans stands the work of C.E.B. Cranfield who served as a battlefield chaplain during WW2.

Life, I acknowledge that you imply that you may have been hasty in a comment that you made. But, you have raised a valid issue, to which I will respond. In my thinking, the focus is on the efforts that God makes to redeem individuals deep in the world of sin. It is not on the mistakes of humans who interacted with her. It also presents good things about people. Yes, it also presents people, other than her, who sinned. But, some of those responded to the grace of God and repented. Do you need to know the names(s) of: 1) The woman who was a mistress of the husband of the woman in the story? 2) Her husband who left her to participate in an active homosexual life? 3) The men who fathered children by her and to whom she was not married? 4) The husband who had an inappropriate relationship with another woman while married to her? 5) The name of the person who publicly informed her that she was eternally lost? 6) The husband who fathered two children by other women while married to her? Life, I could list more. But, I think that I have made my point. My list above includes people who repented of their sins. The grace of God reached people who were involved in sin as much as the woman who was the center of the story. Years after they sinned, I do not believe that their sins need to be brought back into public view. I assume that you agree with me. As a member of Club Adventist, she posted here under a penname. Many of our members will recognize her. Some of those interacted with her while she was a member here and they probably know her real name, as do I. That was her choice to share with them. But, I want to protect people and respect her wishes which was to focus on the grace of God and not on individual sin. If you chose to read. Enjoy the humor that occasionally comes--stranded in Germany with no way to get home and hungry, she puts the little bit of money in a slot machine and she has enough to eat a meal. There is a second issue that I want considered as people read the material: How do we treat people who are on a journey back to God and the SDA Church? 1) At the time of her death, her doctrinal belief as to what happens to a person when they die was not fully in accord with standard SDA belief. 2) At the time of her death, her practice of keeping the Sabbath was not fully in accord with what some people thought it should be. How should we treat people who once knew the faith, so to speak, left it, are on a spiritual journey back, but have not returned all of the way? If people reading her story can deal with that issue, I will have accomplished one of my objectives. Life, again I acknowledge that you have said that you may have been hasty. But, thank you for allowing me to respond to what was a valid question that you asked.