A Works-Based Salvation

[Samie]

A works-based salvation is one that

• 1. presupposes that people are born separate from Christ.

• 2. requires people to do SOMETHING first before they can be attached to Christ.

• 3. unless people contribute that SOMETHING first, they cannot saved.

In essence, the brand of gospel propagated by most preachers is a works-based salvation. Why? Because the brand of gospel popularly preached requires people to believe first so that they can become part of the Body of Christ.

Any thoughts, forum mates?

[TrevorL]

Greetings Samie,

 

A works-based salvation is one that

• 1. presupposes that people are born separate from Christ.

• 2. requires people to do SOMETHING first before they can be attached to Christ.

• 3. unless people contribute that SOMETHING first, they cannot saved.

In essence, the brand of gospel propagated by most preachers is a works-based salvation. Why? Because the brand of gospel popularly preached requires people to believe first so that they can become part of the Body of Christ.

Any thoughts, forum mates?

 

I am not sure of what your problem is here. The simple NT example is that the gospel is preached and the hearer believes the gospel preached and is then baptised. What do you see wrong with the concept of “belief”, especially belief of the gospel that the Apostles preached?
Acts 8:5,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

[8thdaypriest]

I believe that God has created us with the ability to respond to Him. 

Put simply - It's a RELATIONSHIP.

 

A relationship - by definition, involves invitation/response. 

 

The LORD knocks, calls (thru information being presented, and speaking to the heart).

The individual then must "open the "door". 

The individual responds with belief/faith, inviting the LORD to "come in".  

 

When the LORD "comes in" belief/faith is strengthened - and works flow. 

 

The LORD will NOT respond for us. 

He is NOT into mind/heart control. 

He has allowed us this "free will".   (Satan would like to take it away, but God will not allow it - UNTIL probation closes.)

 

Why you think of the individual's response as "works" - I don't understand. 

 

Now - I grant that "works" do flow FROM belief/faith.

We act BECAUSE we believe.

Those "works"/actions demonstrate our belief.

They will be evidence in the judgment.

 

Samie,

I know that you believe that the name of EVERY human being was written in the Book of Life before the "foundation of the world", but that doesn't make it so.  You can repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat that mantra - "every name was written", but that doesn't make it so.   

 

I believe that one's name is written into the Book of Life WHEN he/she is "born again" thru the infilling of the Spirit of Christ.

 

Can young children be "born again"?  No.  That is why we don't baptize small children.   They cannot process the information, therefore they cannot "believe". 

Can those who have never heard the information (gospel) be "born again"? No. 

Can the mentally disabled be "born again"?  No.  They also cannot process the information. 

 

HENCE my belief that children will NOT be resurrected and taken straight to heaven. 

THAT scenario would REQUIRE mind-control, in order to ensure their continued co-operation with God. 

HENCE my belief that children will be resurrected along with "the rest of the dead" at the 8th millennium, to grow up, hear the gospel, then respond or finally rebel.

 

I realize that does not FIT with the SDA/EGW scenario. 

 

We have discussed all of  this in the other threads. 

So you are bringing it up again - WHY? 

 

You must believe that you have more proofs of some kind. 

I will read them, but doubt I will agree.

 

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[JoeMo]

Hi Samie,

I think in another thread, we discussed works-based vs. faith-based salvation.  You implied (or I inferred - can't remember which) the the mere act of believing and accepting Jesus' free gift of salvation was works-based.  How can one even have a faith-based salvation if they don't do the "work" of believing day-by-day; hour-by-hour?  I agree with Sis Rachel here.

 

I apologize in advance if I have misinterpreted you.

[8thdaypriest]

I began a serious study into this topic back when Samie first posted the thread about the Book of Life.  "Whom did God choose"

 

I have tried to search with an open mind, because I could not remember any passage which stated exactly WHEN Jesus wrote the names into His Book.

 

We can dialog, but I have not finished my study into the topic, so I'm not giving any "final word".

 

There was something Samie said that kept going around in my head.

 

"That death reconciled us all to God" (Rom 5:10). 

 

NO IT DID NOT!  Else why would Paul write that we have been given the "message of reconciliation" which we must take to the world.  God is "pleading" thru us - "be reconciled".

The death of Christ did NOT supernaturally change every human heart, bringing all mankind to repentence and reconciliation. 

 

God was not estranged from us.  All mankind was estranged from Him.  God was pleading with the whole world - thru Christ - to be reconciled to Him.  But the reconciliation is not accomplished until the individual responds to the pleading, opens his heart, and is reconciled - to God.  

    The death of Christ did not change the Father.  The knowledge of His death CAN change us - IF we let it.  Learning about it CAN change us - believing it happened - that God gave His own Son.  Without this change of mind, we will not open our heart to Him, so that we can be healed.  Without this change, we will continue on in carnal self-destruction.  There is nothing more that God can do. 

    2 Corinthians 5:19 “that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.”

 

The "word of reconciliation" is information - which is conveyed by the written Word, and thru human beings. 

    2 Corinthians 5:20 “Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God.”

    "Be reconciled" Paul writes.  The BIG implication here is that the individual has something to DO, which God will NOT DO for him. 

 

God will draw us, He will speak to our hearts by His Spirit, by His Word, and thru the voices of others - but He will not break down the "door".  We must open to Him.

Hearing this “message” - this “word of reconciliation” is an essential step in the salvation process.   (A person CAN refuse to "hear".) 

 

Jesus will redeem those who are reconciled to God. 

Before one can be reconciled, he must hear the message, and understand it.

 

Small children and the mentally disabled CANNOT "hear" (understand) the "message of reconciliation".

Many have lived and died without ever hearing that "message".

I believe these will be raised with the "rest of the dead" in order that they may "hear" it, and then be reconciled, or refuse to "hear" and rebel (at Gog-Magog).

 

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

 

[8thdaypriest]

The phrase "in Christ" also kept going around in my mind.  I looked up every passage where those words were employed.

 

In the large portion of the verses, the phrase was used to describe believers.

 

Paul wrote:

 

Romans 8:1  “There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.”

 

The implication would be that there IS condemnation to those who are NOT in Christ Jesus. 

 

Romans 16:7 “Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.”

 

If every human being starts life IN the Book of Life, then how could anyone NOT be "in Christ".  But here Paul says that others were "in Christ" before he was.

Sounds like an EVENT which happens in time.

    2 Corinthians 5:17 “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.”

    Sounds like the “born again” experience to me.  To be “in Christ” means to be a believer who has been baptized.

 

Could it be that the moment when one is now "in Christ", is also the moment when his/her name is entered - by Christ - into His Book of Eternal Life?

 

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint
 

[CoAspen]

A works-based salvation is one that

• 1. presupposes that people are born separate from Christ.

• 2. requires people to do SOMETHING first before they can be attached to Christ.

• 3. unless people contribute that SOMETHING first, they cannot saved.

In essence, the brand of gospel propagated by most preachers is a works-based salvation. Why? Because the brand of gospel popularly preached requires people to believe first so that they can become part of the Body of Christ.

Any thoughts, forum mates?

 

Yes, a vast amount of persons simply do not believe in John 3:16.....on of the simplist explanations but always argued about. Tis the human condition that we MUST work out something.

[JoeMo]

'God so loved the world .... that whosoever believeth should have everlasting life."

 

Believing - such a simple, easy task; but it is still the work we must do to be saved.

[8thdaypriest]

Yes, a vast amount of persons simply do not believe in John 3:16.....on of the simplist explanations but always argued about. Tis the human condition that we MUST work out something.

 

Hmmmmmm? 

 

John 3:16  "God so loved the world (every human being who would ever exist)

that He gave His only begotten Son,

that whosoever believeth in Him 

might not perish,

but have everlasting life."

 

Whosoever indicates a part of a larger group.  The larger group would be "the world". 

Only part of "the world" would believe. 

 

Samie seems to be saying that God will do the believing FOR US.

And more than that - IF every human began life "in Christ" then everyone already believed.  That doesn't FIT.

 

The LORD sends information.  He draws us by His Spirit. 

Our part is to respond with BELIEF. 

 

The response of "belief" to the stimulus of information+Spirit, is NOT works.

Fact is - one has to fight hard NOT to believe.  One has to "resist" the Spirit. 

 

Once one gives in to God and believes, THEN he/she will be tempted to disobey God's express commands.

He is pulled back toward sin.

Then he has to resist the temptation. 

But the LORD will help - because NOW He has been invited into the heart. 

[8thdaypriest]

Yes, a vast amount of persons simply do not believe in John 3:16.....on of the simplist explanations but always argued about. Tis the human condition that we MUST work out something.

 

Most do NOT believe that God literally beget a Son - out of Himself.  I DO.

I believe that God beget a Son, before the creation. 

He beget a Son, and then the Son became the agent of His Father in creation, mediation, redemption and judgment.

 

Several studies on this topic at my website.

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[Samie]

In line with the OP,

 

Most preachers teach that people are born APART from Christ. To be attached to Christ, preachers tell people to believe in Christ. But Christ has said that while apart from Him, people can do NOTHING.

 

So, in effect, preachers are saying that while still APART from Christ, people can do SOMETHING to be attached to Him Who said people can do NOTHING while APART from Him.

 

Doesn't it seem like preachers are preaching against the words of the Savior Himself?  And it appears that this is the brand of gospel popularly preached nowadays.

 

Most preachers have not yet recognized the Biblical fact that God has ALREADY saved us by His grace before the world began.

2 Timothy 1:8-9   8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;  9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

 

The importance of the Past Tense of Salvation is yet to find its proper place in the preaching of the gospel today. By God's grace, we were born ATTACHED to Christ, contingent upon His death on Calvary's cross. 

 

That death RECONCILED us all to God.

KJV Romans 5:10   For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

That death forgave us from all sins:

NAS Colossians 2:13,14 And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

 

That death cleansed us all from sin:

NKJ Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood

 

What God through Christ has done FOR us, EMPOWERED us with the capability of overcoming evil with good as we live sanctified lives in the Present Tense of Salvation, being ATTACHED to Him Who is our Strength. Those who REFUSE to overcome evil with good while alive will be blotted out from the book of life when they die. And only those whose names remain in the book of life will inherit eternal life in the Future Tense of Salvation.

[JoeMo]

Hi Bro Samie,

I agree with you that we were reconciled to Gad by the death of His Son; and that He has forgiven us all of our trespasses, but we still have to ACCEPT that reconciliation and forgiveness.  So many of us are still hung up on the idea that Jesus didn't do it all; that we have something ELSE to do besides believe, accept, and cooperate with "the Voice inside" to attain our salvation.  As long as we think that our works will influence our salvation, we haven't accepted the free gift.  Isn't acceptance a "work"?

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Samie,

In line with the OP,

 

Most preachers teach that people are born APART from Christ. To be attached to Christ, preachers tell people to believe in Christ. But Christ has said that while apart from Him, people can do NOTHING.

 

So, in effect, preachers are saying that while still APART from Christ, people can do SOMETHING to be attached to Him Who said people can do NOTHING while APART from Him.

 

Your comment “But Christ has said that while apart from Him, people can do NOTHING” appears to come from the following:
John 15:1-8 (KJV): 1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
This passage does not seem relevant to what you have stated. It is talking about the Apostles and disciples, all who have already believed in Jesus, and who have thus become part of the true vine.

 

Kind regards
Trevor
 

[LifeHiscost]

Most do NOT believe that God literally beget a Son - out of Himself.  I DO.

I believe that God beget a Son, before the creation. 

He beget a Son, and then the Son became the agent of His Father in creation, mediation, redemption and judgment.

 

 

This looks to me  where Jesus was long before creation, being identified as One with the Father, especially identifying Him as creating all that has been created, the same Jesus born as a Babe in the manger.

 

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and Truth.   John 1:1-3,14

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Stan]

What did the works based salvation at the time of Christ look like?

[8thdaypriest]

What did the works based salvation at the time of Christ look like?

It looked like Pharisaic Judaism. 

 

    Matthew 23:1-4 “Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples saying: ‘The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat [ruling the people] . . . . For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.”

 

    It was a yoke. Yes!  But is THIS the “yoke” referenced by Peter and Paul, or are we missing the larger picture?    

        Why did the Pharisees add rule upon rule upon rule?  Was it because they had no respect for the original Covenant of Ten Commandments.  No!  It was because they wanted to make very sure the people were keeping the law.  

        Failure to keep the Law would mean destruction, captivity, and dispersion.  It would mean death for Judea and what was left of Israel.  The Pharisees  piled rule upon rule to prevent infractions of the law.  But - think about it.  If the law is written on the heart by the Spirit, then you don’t need to force anyone.  They will keep the law because it has become their nature to do so.   It is written on the heart.  

        And of course, as years went by an upper class evolved who exempted themselves from many of the rules they invented for everyone else.

         Think about the banking industry today.  If everyone involved in the banking industry had the law of unselfish love written on his or her heart, we would not NEED regulation upon regulation.  Right?  All the regulations are to prevent selfish and greedy behavior.  The Oral Torah of the Pharisees came about because they did NOT have the Spirit within.  Those Pharisaic rules were the result of law without the Spirit.

        Consider socialism - the enforced redistribution of wealth.  Where obedience is forced - that system will ultimately fail.  Compare this to the early believers, who “held all things in common” and no man considered ought of his property his own (Acts 2:44-45).  All this because the law of love was written on their hearts.

 

        Like a marriage without love, so the law without the Spirit becomes a “yoke of bondage”. Without the Spirit of Christ within, no human being can keep the Law of God perfectly.  It is like pushing a huge boulder uphill.  When you get tired, it will roll right back over you and crush you, or crush someone who is behind you climbing that hill - which is exactly what the Law of the Pharisees did to the Jews.

    Romans 9:31-32 “But Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.  Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law.  For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.”

    The “stumbling stone” was FAITH, or lack of it.  

 

There is a study at my website titled "A Yoke of Bondage".

 

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

 

[8thdaypriest]

Greetings again Samie,

Your comment “But Christ has said that while apart from Him, people can do NOTHING” appears to come from the following:

John 15:1-8 (KJV): 1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

This passage does not seem relevant to what you have stated. It is talking about the Apostles and disciples, all who have already believed in Jesus, and who have thus become part of the true vine.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

 

John 15:1-8 is about believers BEARING FRUITS.  We can BEAR NO FRUITS unless we are attached to the Vine (Jesus).  This verse is not about the moment when we become attached, and whether that process involves a CHOICE on our part, which only we can make. 

[8thdaypriest]

In line with the OP,

 

Most preachers teach that people are born APART from Christ. To be attached to Christ, preachers tell people to believe in Christ. But Christ has said that while apart from Him, people can do NOTHING.

 

So, in effect, preachers are saying that while still APART from Christ, people can do SOMETHING to be attached to Him Who said people can do NOTHING while APART from Him.

 

Doesn't it seem like preachers are preaching against the words of the Savior Himself?  And it appears that this is the brand of gospel popularly preached nowadays.

 

Most preachers have not yet recognized the Biblical fact that God has ALREADY saved us by His grace before the world began.

2 Timothy 1:8-9   8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;  9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

 

The importance of the Past Tense of Salvation is yet to find its proper place in the preaching of the gospel today. By God's grace, we were born ATTACHED to Christ, contingent upon His death on Calvary's cross. 

 

That death RECONCILED us all to God.

KJV Romans 5:10   For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

That death forgave us from all sins:

NAS Colossians 2:13,14 And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

 

That death cleansed us all from sin:

NKJ Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood

 

What God through Christ has done FOR us, EMPOWERED us with the capability of overcoming evil with good as we live sanctified lives in the Present Tense of Salvation, being ATTACHED to Him Who is our Strength. Those who REFUSE to overcome evil with good while alive will be blotted out from the book of life when they die. And only those whose names remain in the book of life will inherit eternal life in the Future Tense of Salvation.

 

1.  We do NOT believe apart from Christ's work in us.  Who do think is "drawing" us to Himself ?  It's just that we are given the freedom to "resist" the drawing of the Spirit.

 

And God has set things up so that humans must have information upon which to base this acceptance of Christ.  It does not happen in a vacuum - without the intake of information - whether from an angel visitor, an appeance of Christ Himself, or a gospel message from other humans. 

 

2.  If we were already "in Christ", we would not have to be drawn to Him.  Jesus said, "I will draw all men unto me."  TRUE - but most men will resist that drawing, or conviction.

 

3.  Colossians 2:13-14 is talking about those who "were dead" who have now been made "alive".  Paul is writing to believers - not to those who are still "dead". 

 

In most of your Scripture passages the "us" or the "we" includes only those who have responded with belief.  The "we" or "us" in those passages does not include the majority of human beings who resist the Spirit of Christ.

 

4.  The letter to the Roman church is speaking to those who "were enemies" (past tense), who have now been "reconciled to God".  Non-believers have NOT been reconciled to God.

 

Why would Paul write that we are sent as  ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God.”  (2 Corinthians 5:20).   There would be no need to implore if "all" have already been "reconciled to God".

 

5.  Romans 5:10 is explaining the process.  How we were changed from "enemies" to "reconciled".   We heard about the "death of His Son."  That is the HOW.  We were drawn to God by that realization - that God gave His Son for us. 

 

God needed no reconcilliation.  He already love us.  God does not change. 

Only humans are reconciled - in heart - to God. 

 

6.  The gift of grace, and salvation HAPPENED when God pledged/promised His only Begotten for the human race.  It is in that sense only, that grace was given to us "before the creation of the world."  Whether we allow/embrace/and open to the drawing of the Spirit  or  resist to our eternal destruction, happens one person at a time - as the "message of reconciliation" is delivered to each one individually. 

 

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[Samie]

Hi Bro Samie,

I agree with you that we were reconciled to Gad by the death of His Son; and that He has forgiven us all of our trespasses, but we still have to ACCEPT that reconciliation and forgiveness.  So many of us are still hung up on the idea that Jesus didn't do it all; that we have something ELSE to do besides believe, accept, and cooperate with "the Voice inside" to attain our salvation.  As long as we think that our works will influence our salvation, we haven't accepted the free gift.  Isn't acceptance a "work"?

Yes, it is.  We do the "working" in the Present Tense of Salvation, AFTER the Past Tense of Salvation of which God made us all beneficiaries before the world began, contingent upon the death of our Savior on the cross.

 

What I am emphasizing in this thread is the falsity of the contention that the "working" is PRECURSORY to our becoming beneficiaries of the Past Tense of Salvation.  And this is what most preachers preach. This is why the gospel POPULARLY preached is NOT the gospel our Savior WANTED preached before He comes again.

[Samie]

1.  We do NOT believe apart from Christ's work in us.  Who do think is "drawing" us to Himself ?  It's just that we are given the freedom to "resist" the drawing of the Spirit.

 

And God has set things up so that humans must have information upon which to base this acceptance of Christ.  It does not happen in a vacuum - without the intake of information - whether from an angel visitor, an appeance of Christ Himself, or a gospel message from other humans. 

 

2.  If we were already "in Christ", we would not have to be drawn to Him.  Jesus said, "I will draw all men unto me."  TRUE - but most men will resist that drawing, or conviction.

 

3.  Colossians 2:13-14 is talking about those who "were dead" who have now been made "alive".  Paul is writing to believers - not to those who are still "dead". 

 

In most of your Scripture passages the "us" or the "we" includes only those who have responded with belief.  The "we" or "us" in those passages does not include the majority of human beings who resist the Spirit of Christ.

 

4.  The letter to the Roman church is speaking to those who "were enemies" (past tense), who have now been "reconciled to God".  Non-believers have NOT been reconciled to God.

 

Why would Paul write that we are sent as  ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God.”  (2 Corinthians 5:20).   There would be no need to implore if "all" have already been "reconciled to God".

 

5.  Romans 5:10 is explaining the process.  How we were changed from "enemies" to "reconciled".   We heard about the "death of His Son."  That is the HOW.  We were drawn to God by that realization - that God gave His Son for us. 

 

God needed no reconcilliation.  He already love us.  God does not change. 

Only humans are reconciled - in heart - to God. 

 

6.  The gift of grace, and salvation HAPPENED when God pledged/promised His only Begotten for the human race.  It is in that sense only, that grace was given to us "before the creation of the world."  Whether we allow/embrace/and open to the drawing of the Spirit  or  resist to our eternal destruction, happens one person at a time - as the "message of reconciliation" is delivered to each one individually. 

 

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

Sis Rachel;

 

1. Yes. Christ, through the Holy Spirit, works in us because we are in Him. The Holy Spirit only leads the children of God (Rom 8:14). And God made us His ADOPTED children in Christ BEFORE the foundation of the world (Eph 1:3-5).

 

2. Your #2 statement is contrary to what you said in #1. Your proof verse was spoken by Jesus BEFORE His death. It was through the cross that He will draw all to Himself (John 12:32,33). On the cross, He made us all part of His Body (Eph 2:11-19). Had He not died on the cross, our being adopted sons BEFORE the foundation of the world would have been in vain.

 

3. Yes, we were all dead, and were all made alive TOGETHER with Christ (Eph 2:5). TOGETHER, not one by one as each one believes.  Because we ALL were made alive, we ALL became empowered and responsible to overcome evil with good.

 

4. Your #4 is untenable, biblically. Paul's letter to the Romans was written BEFORE the gospel was preached to them (Rom 1:15; 15:20). Yet the apostle told them that they were reconciled to God by the death of His Son (Rom 5:10).

 

God's FINISHED work of reconciling us to Himself through Christ, is DIFFERENT from OUR work of reconciling our lives to God. Same case with "Be ye holy" (1 Pet 1:15) AFTER we were made holy by the death of our Lord (Heb 10:10).

 

5. Clearly, Rom 5:10 is not a process. Here: "we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son".  VERBATIM.

 

You said, "we were drawn to God by that realization". You are saying it was our "realization" that drew us to God when our Savior Himself said He will draw us to Himself. It is either "we" or "He". I side with Him Who said "I will draw all men unto me".

 

6.  You said: "happens one person at a time - as the "message of reconciliation" is delivered to each one individually".

Scriptures say: NKJ Ephesians 2:5 "even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive TOGETHER with Christ (by grace you have been saved)".

 

So, "one by one" or "together"? I side with Scriptures that say "together".