The Will

[james423]

This may not be a terribly profound quotation from Ellen White for some people, but when I ran across it in the new Ellen White compilation of her letters and manuscripts (1845-1859) I thought it was a different way of looking at man's will and the part our submission plays in the Christian life.

 

 

“I saw that the will is either submitted to Jesus for Him to govern and lead, or the person retains or sets up his or her own will, not willing to submit to Jesus against his own peculiar desires or will.  Then Satan steps in and he molds this will to his own pleasure.  Christ or Satan has the government of the will, and we are the subjects of one or the other.”

 

p. 557    

 

 

Ellen White, Letter 1, 1858 quoted in The White Estate, Inc. The Ellen G. White Letters and Manuscripts with Annotations, Vol. 1.  Hagerstown, MD: Review and Herald Publishing Association, 2014.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I think many (if not most) of us would like to submit our will to Christ, but we end up leasing our will to Him, and retaining landlord status and rights....

[Gail]

Well said- it is easier to say than to do! Our natural self does not want to surrender having its own way

[joeb]

This may not be a terribly profound quotation from Ellen White for some people, but when I ran across it in the new Ellen White compilation of her letters and manuscripts (1845-1859) I thought it was a different way of looking at man's will and the part our submission plays in the Christian life.

 

 

“I saw that the will is either submitted to Jesus for Him to govern and lead, or the person retains or sets up his or her own will, not willing to submit to Jesus against his own peculiar desires or will.  Then Satan steps in and he molds this will to his own pleasure.  Christ or Satan has the government of the will, and we are the subjects of one or the other.”

 

p. 557      

 

 

Ellen White, Letter 1, 1858 quoted in The White Estate, Inc. The Ellen G. White Letters and Manuscripts with Annotations, Vol. 1.  Hagerstown, MD: Review and Herald Publishing Association, 2014.

This goes right along with a thread I started on the idea that everything on this earth comes from either God or the devil.  We are controlled by one or the other, and thus our ideas, motives, etc... all come from (are inspired by) one source or the other.  We cannot rule ourselves as we are either led by the Holy Spirit, or we're at the "mercy" of the devil.  There is no neutral ground on which we rule.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

This goes right along with a thread I started on the idea that everything on this earth comes from either God or the devil.  We are controlled by one or the other, and thus our ideas, motives, etc... all come from (are inspired by) one source or the other.  We cannot rule ourselves as we are either led by the Holy Spirit, or we're at the "mercy" of the devil.  There is no neutral ground on which we rule. 

 

I disagree.  If the above were true, we would all be puppets with no free will.  In addition, the above idea lends itself nicely to folks who have the propensity of condemning anything that doesn't agree with their own ideas and perceptions - because they consider their ideas to be God-given, and if someone has a different idea, [according to the above] it must be of the devil.  

[LifeHiscost]

This goes right along with a thread I started on the idea that everything on this earth comes from either God or the devil.

Considering this from the Word:

 

John 15:5 " If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me

you can do nothing. ...

 

James 1:17  Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the

heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. ..

 

Considering our choice of words is of our own free will, perhaps this ideom makes sense.   "Before opening one's mouth, make sure brain is in gear"

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[joeb]

I disagree.  If the above were true, we would all be puppets with no free will.  In addition, the above idea lends itself nicely to folks who have the propensity of condemning anything that doesn't agree with their own ideas and perceptions - because they consider their ideas to be God-given, and if someone has a different idea, [according to the above] it must be of the devil.  

I would disagree with your analysis of my idea.  Why?  Because those whom you're speaking about are completely egocentric, and as such we know who they are controlled by.  Anyone who is egocentric has no need for an idea such as mine for an excuse to think everyone who disagrees with them is evil.  

 

The way I see the fruit of what I've put forth is that each of us need to carefully consider our own selves so we can make sure what side we ourselves are on.  Are we feeding our own egos, or are we living for the glory of God.  The people you're talking about will never do that.  

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

 

The way I see the fruit of what I've put forth is that each of us need to carefully consider our own selves so we can make sure what side we ourselves are on.  Are we feeding our own egos, or are we living for the glory of God.  The people you're talking about will never do that.  

 

If "all ideas, motives, etc" are the product of either God or the Devil (as hypothesized), how can a *person* "consider" which side s/he is on?   According to the theory, the "considering" will also be completed as a product of God or Satan....  

[joeb]

If "all ideas, motives, etc" are the product of either God or the Devil (as hypothesized), how can a *person* "consider" which side s/he is on?   According to the theory, the "considering" will also be completed as a product of God or Satan....  

In a way that is very true.  I have to say I do not have the ability, on my own, to choose God over Satan.  I have a fallen nature.  All mankind is in the same boat with me.  Not a one of us can recognize the truth about God without the influence(leading) of the Holy Spirit.  Neither you nor I are smarter or wiser than God or the devil.  

 

Think about this.  The devil has been studying human nature for thousands of years and using that knowledge in his practice of deceiving us about who God is.  He was created the 3rd most powerful being in the universe and along with that came the same level of intelligence.  Do you imagine that you are his equal in a test of wits?  I know I'm not.  I know I don't have a chance against him.  I'm taking a BB gun to a machinegun fight, so to speak.  My only chance of recognizing his deceptions is to trust in the word of God.  If I don't the devil can, and has, led me around by the nose while I thought I was making all my own decisions and doing my own thing.   He was destroying me, and I thought I was having a good time.  Only God could have changed my mind as I was a total slave to the devil.  Now, I'm a servant of God, and only as long as I choose to remain as such, do I have a choice in who I am and where I'm going.  

 

The Bible makes all of this pretty clear.  

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

In a way that is very true.  I have to say I do not have the ability, on my own, to choose God over Satan.  I have a fallen nature.  All mankind is in the same boat with me.  Not a one of us can recognize the truth about God without the influence(leading) of the Holy Spirit.  

 

 My only chance of recognizing his [the devil's] deceptions is to trust in the word of God.  If I don't the devil can, and has, led me around by the nose while I thought I was making all my own decisions and doing my own thing.   He was destroying me, and I thought I was having a good time.  Only God could have changed my mind as I was a total slave to the devil.  Now, I'm a servant of God, and only as long as I choose to remain as such, do I have a choice in who I am and where I'm going.  

 

 

How do you distinguish between "choosing" and having "thoughts, ideas, etc"?

[joeb]

How do you distinguish between "choosing" and having "thoughts, ideas, etc"?

I have one, and only one, choice in this life.  That is choose to follow God or the devil.  Everything around me, all the influences that affect me come from one of two sources.  I don't have the wisdom or the smarts on my own to distinguish between the good and the bad.  All I can do is choose to follow God's leading, and I can know God's leading because He gave us the Bible, His word.   Anything that comes to me either agrees with God's word or it doesn't.  If it doesn't agree with His word, then I know where it comes from because I trust God, and thus trust His word, to keep me safe and give me the wisdom and knowledge He knows I need.  Thus, all good comes from God, and the rest comes from the devil.  

 

Someone here gave me an example of alchemy, making gold out of another substance as something that doesn't come from either God or devil.  I think it's pretty easy to tell where something comes from by what it tends to lead to.   The alchemist studies the idea of changing lead, or some other substance, to gold.  Why?  Because of greed.  He wants to become extremely wealthy.  What does the Bible tell us about that?  It's harder for a rich man to get into heaven that for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, and by what happened to Solomon after he became extremely wealthy and powerful.  The wisest man who ever lived was deceived through wealth and power.  So where does the alchemy idea come from?  God?  Or does it come from a source that wants to distract me keeping my eyes on God and God alone?  

 

When we apply the above principle to everything in life we can eventually see where all ideas come from.  To me it's pretty plain, but I've thought about this for many years too.  I didn't come to this overnight.  I would have scoffed at it for most of my life, so if someone else doesn't see it right away it doesn't bother me in the least.  

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

There are many thoughts and ideas that come to people that are neither "good" nor "bad" -- they simply "are"....

 

I might choose to paint my house blue.  Or white.  Or purple.  The decision I make would not be inherently "good" or "bad" (except to my neighbors, perhaps).

 

And at the risk of stepping on toes, I further submit that dreams are neither good nor evil.  They are simply manifestations of the subconscious mind.  (But I withhold that judgement on the dreams of scriptural persons, which I consider to be of supernatural origin and not the result of eating a bad loaf of challah.)

[joeb]

If "all ideas, motives, etc" are the product of either God or the Devil (as hypothesized), how can a *person* "consider" which side s/he is on?   According to the theory, the "considering" will also be completed as a product of God or Satan....  

You're taking this to an extreme that I've never meant.  Consideration is the act of making a choice.  That said, we cannot choose to follow God on our own, for if the Holy Spirit doesn't reveal truth to us we cannot know the truth about God.  I'd recommend that you study all the statements Ellen White has made on "the will" to understand the context in which I'm saying these things.  

 

Let's look at your house painting example.   How much of your choice in colors is to make yourself look good in the eyes of your neighbors, or to draw attention to yourself?  I wouldn't know, only you would, but if we're choosing colors based upon drawing attention to ourselves from whom does that choice come from?  Now, if we make that color choice because we want to honor God in all we do where does that choice originate from?  

 

Are you beginning to see where I'm coming from?  

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

You're taking this to an extreme that I've never meant.  

 

not really... you stated that all ideas and thoughts were either of the devil or of God..

 

My house is painted sky blue with white trim.  I chose the colors because I like them - not to "draw attention" to myself or my house.  Other houses around here are painted dull, blah colors, such as olive green, gray, and beige.  I don't care for those colors.  

 

I do not feel that the choice of a house color is related to in any way to an idea guided by God or by the devil.  It is simply a personal preference.... as are many opinions and choices of people.

[joeb]

not really... you stated that all ideas and thoughts were either of the devil or of God..

 

My house is painted sky blue with white trim.  I chose the colors because I like them - not to "draw attention" to myself or my house.  Other houses around here are painted dull, blah colors, such as olive green, gray, and beige.  I don't care for those colors.  

 

I do not feel that the choice of a house color is related to in any way to an idea guided by God or by the devil.  It is simply a personal preference.... as are many opinions and choices of people.

That's right, I did say that, however your reading of what I said, and how I meant what I said are two different things....

 

If I put forth an idea and agree with it and you restate it in your own words to other people who is the source of the idea, you are me?  That is how I'm meaning this.  There are only two sources.  Oh, we can restate ideas, our subconscious can bring to the surface things we don't remember hearing, or can synthesize multiple ideas together and we can think they are our own, or the devil can implant an idea in our head without us even knowing it, and we will think these are our "own" ideas.   The Bible doesn't say there is nothing new under the sun for no reason.  

 

We live in a battleground in which there is nothing that is neutral.  Everything we do leads us one way or the other, even if we don't realize it.   Both the Bible and Ellen White's writings make this clear.  There's a reason Paul said, whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.   If we whatever we are doing isn't to the glory of God, it's to the glory of His, and our, enemy.   Now, if you don't believe that, I don't know that there is anything further to be said.  It will only be us "pounding" on each other.  

[JoeMo]

I disagree.  If the above were true, we would all be puppets with no free will.  In addition, the above idea lends itself nicely to folks who have the propensity of condemning anything that doesn't agree with their own ideas and perceptions - because they consider their ideas to be God-given, and if someone has a different idea, [according to the above] it must be of the devil.  

I have to agree with Rudy.  If all my thoughts are either from God or the devil, I have no free will.  Even though we all make decisions to follow God or satan, we are all making that decision every day; and (at least in my experience) I choose rightly on some days and wrongly on others.  God won't make me do things His way, and satan, can't make me.  God has chosen to honor my free will (whether or not it's His way), and satan cannot overrule my free will (although he can be VERY persuasive).  My choices are my own. Is that because I am an egomaniac? No; it's because God gave me the privledge of making my own decisions - stupid as they may be sometimes.

 

Who is right - David when He says in Psalm 51 "For I know my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me.  Against thee, thee only, have I sinned" or Flip Wilson when he says on Laugh-In, 'the devil made me do it"?

 

[LifeHiscost]

  I choose rightly on some days and wrongly on others.  God won't make me do things His way, and satan, can't make me.  God has chosen to honor my free will (whether or not it's His way), and satan cannot overrule my free will (although he can be VERY persuasive)My choices are my own. Is that because I am an egomaniac? No; it's because God gave me the privledge of making my own decisions.

 

 

One has to be open to the possibility that there is a better way than what God has appointed before persuasion has any power. LHC

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[joeb]

I have to agree with Rudy.  If all my thoughts are either from God or the devil, I have no free will.  Even though we all make decisions to follow God or satan, we are all making that decision every day; and (at least in my experience) I choose rightly on some days and wrongly on others.  God won't make me do things His way, and satan, can't make me.  God has chosen to honor my free will (whether or not it's His way), and satan cannot overrule my free will (although he can be VERY persuasive).  My choices are my own. Is that because I am an egomaniac? No; it's because God gave me the privledge of making my own decisions - stupid as they may be sometimes.

 

Who is right - David when He says in Psalm 51 "For I know my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me.  Against thee, thee only, have I sinned" or Flip Wilson when he says on Laugh-In, 'the devil made me do it"?

 

Like rudywoofs you're not understanding my position.   

 

Both God and devil are the originator's of all that goes on here on this earth.   All good originates with God.  All evil originates with the devil.   Not a single one of us are even close to being in the same class of intelligence that they are.  Thus, if we think of something you can be sure they've already thought of it.  We're basically idiots compared to them.  And, both of them know far more about human nature than any 1000 of us put together.  God created us.  He knows how we with think.  He knows our nature intimately.   His knowledge and wisdom are without end.  Is your's?   The devil was created the 3rd smartest being in the universe.  Not on earth, in the universe.  He's been studying human nature since we were created.  He knows just how to get us to think something.  The traps he sets for us are way beyond our comprehension.  For example, look how easily he deceived Adam and Eve.  It was child's play for him, and we are far from being as intelligent as Adam and Eve.  We've got 6000 years of the degeneration of sin in our heredity.  

 

Thus, anything we can come up with has already been thought of, and the Bible tells us just exactly that.  The wisest man who ever lived said, There is nothing new under the sun.  Do you really imagine you're in Solomon's class?  I'm not that arrogant.  Do you really want to question what the Bible says on the subject?  I don't.  I'll believe it just the way it says it.     

[teresaq]

This may not be a terribly profound quotation from Ellen White for some people, but when I ran across it in the new Ellen White compilation of her letters and manuscripts (1845-1859) I thought it was a different way of looking at man's will and the part our submission plays in the Christian life.

 

 

“I saw that the will is either submitted to Jesus for Him to govern and lead, or the person retains or sets up his or her own will, not willing to submit to Jesus against his own peculiar desires or will.  Then Satan steps in and he molds this will to his own pleasure.  Christ or Satan has the government of the will, and we are the subjects of one or the other.”

 

p. 557    

 

 

Ellen White, Letter 1, 1858 quoted in The White Estate, Inc. The Ellen G. White Letters and Manuscripts with Annotations, Vol. 1.  Hagerstown, MD: Review and Herald Publishing Association, 2014.

 

This is such an awesome quote and fact!  I found it so comforting when I came across it since the mentality at large, and sadly including the church, is to have "willpower". That works great for those who think they have it, along with the mind of Christ, to know when they are exercising their will on the side of God instead of their own idea of what God wants.

 

I find it funny that the original 12 steppers, while having a touch of spiritualistic thought at thankfully rare times, often seem to quote either scripture, or Ellen White. This thought is almost word for word from her:

 

It is when we try to make our will conform with God’s that we begin to use it rightly.  To all of us, this was a most wonderful revelation.  Our whole trouble had been the misuse of willpower.  We had tried to bombard our problems with it instead of attempting to bring it into agreement with God’s intention for us.  To make this increasingly possible is the purpose of A.A.’s Twelve Steps, and Step Three opens the door. TWELVE STEPS AND TWELVE TRADITIONS, p.  40

 

 

The Pharisees had not put their will on the side of God’s will.  {DA 455.3}  

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.