Sodom & Gomorrah revisited in the light of God's love

[Robert]

The first time that the Bible mentions "Sodom & Gomorrah" is in Genesis 10:19.  Two other cities are also named that went down with these infamous cities! With this in mind go to Deuteronmy 29:23 the last part of the sentence.

 

"It will be like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, which the LORD overthrew in fierce anger."

 

Until recently I didn't realize that with Sodom & Gomorrah two other cities were also destroyed:   "Admah and Zeboiim".  Remember these names because they are crucial in understanding God's love.

[Robert]

Gen 18:7 The LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do,....20 And the LORD said, "The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave. 21 "I will go down now, and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know." 22 Then the men (two angels) turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the LORD.

 

We know the story: Abraham barters with the Lord.  I'll take up this back and forth at the end: 

 

verse 32 Then he (Abraham) said, "Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak only this once; suppose ten are found there?" And He (the Lord) said, "I will not destroy it on account of the ten." 33 As soon as He had finished speaking to Abraham the LORD departed, and Abraham returned to his place.

 

Notice the language:  "What I am about to do"!

 

Now let's skip until we come to the destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah.  

 

Genesis 19:4 Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire....

[Stan]

lets not forget what the sins of Sodom were, so we do not replete them.

 

 

49“ ‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. 51Samaria did not commit half the sins you did. You have done more detestable things than they, and have made your sisters seem righteous by all these things you have done. 52Bear your disgrace, for you have furnished some justification for your sisters. Because your sins were more vile than theirs, they appear more righteous than you. So then, be ashamed and bear your disgrace, for you have made your sisters appear righteous.

[Robert]

Now let's look at something that happened with Christ's disciples in the New Testament:

 

Luke 9:51 Now it came to pass, when the time had come for Him (Christ) to be received up, that He steadfastly set His face to go to Jerusalem, 52 and sent messengers before His face. And as they went, they entered a village of the Samaritans, to prepare for Him. 53 But they did not receive Him, because His face was set for the journey to Jerusalem. 54 And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, "Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?" 55 But He turned and rebuked them, and said, "You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. 56 For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives but to save them." And they went to another village.

 

Two comments:

 

1] Jesus came not to destroy men's lives, but to save them.

 

2] James & John were of the wrong spirit for wanting to bring down fire out of heaven on the Samaritans.

 

What then of Sodom & Gomorrah?

 

Jesus, the Lord, said He destroyed these cities.

 

Two questions:

 

1] What about God's love towards sinners?

 

2] Do we have a contradiction?

 

To answer these we must use the Bible as its own interpreter!  

[Robert]

Okay, let's try to understand this conundrum.  First, let me illustrate that I am in harmony with Ellen White. Please notice the "red" letters:

 

"God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown....The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy." [GC 36]

 

"God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest...." [COL 84]

 

Ellen White always pointed to the Bible for the final word.  Can these truths be found in the Bible?  

 

One has already been mentioned:  "The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy."

 

Go to Matt 23:37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often have I desired to gather your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! 38 See, your house (your city) is left to you, desolate.

 

Matt 24:15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' (the Roman armies standing in the temple) spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 

 

The unbelieving Jews perished during the Roman siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

 

Why?  They we not willing....They rejected Christ and sought to hide the fact of the resurrection.  What did God do when the Jews persisted in their unbelief?  He withdrew Himself.  With His absence His protection went with Him.

 

This idea can be summed by the following:

 

Deut 31:17 Then My anger shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured. And many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, 'Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?'

[Robert]

Deut 31:17 Then My anger shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured. And many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, 'Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?'

 

Can I take this principle and apply to to Sodom and Gomorrah?  Yes!

 

Remember what I said in post # 1?

 

"Admah and Zeboiim".  Remember these names because they are crucial in understanding God's love.

 

[Robert]

Can I take this principle and apply it to Sodom and Gomorrah?  Yes!

 

Remember what I said in post # 1?

Hosea 11:8 "How can I give you up, Ephraim? How can I hand you over, Israel? How can I make you like Admah?  How can I treat you like Zeboiim? My heart is disturbed within me; all my compassions are aroused. [LEB]

 

 How can I give you up, O Ephraim? How can I surrender you, O Israel? How can I make you like Admah? How can I treat you like Zeboiim? My heart is turned over within Me, All My compassions are kindled. [NAS]

[Robert]

Does anyone disagree or is what I stated feasible?  Feedback would be nice....

[8thdaypriest]

There is a study at my website - "The Wrath of God - A Different View". 

There are very few instances where God by direct action punished, or destroyed someone.

 

Miriam's instant leprosy.

Nadab and Abihu - the two sons of Aaron.

The 250 princes - consumed when "fire" flashed form the pillar of cloud.

King Uzziah's instant leprosy (2 Chron 26:19)

The army of Gog and Magog is consumed by "fire" of God from heaven. 

The "lake of fire" - especially made for the devil and his angels.

 

The LORD did instantly heal - so there is no reason to believe that He could not also punish instantly.  It just was not usual. 

Most often, He allowed nature and unbridled evil to take their course. 

 

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[Robert]

There is a study at my website - "The Wrath of God - A Different View". 

There are very few instances where God by direct action punished, or destroyed someone.

 

Miriam's instant leprosy.

Let's just take one of your examples, Miriam's leprosy:

 

Numbers 12:9 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against them, and he departed.

 

Again, since He departed He couldn't have caused Miriam's leprosy.  He abandoned Miriam.  

 

This goes back to Deut 31:17 ... I will forsake them and hide my face from them, ....and many evils and troubles (like leprosy) will come upon them, so that they will say in that day, 'Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?'

[hch]

Okay, let's try to understand this conundrum.  First, let me illustrate that I am in harmony with Ellen White. Please notice the "red" letters:

 

...

 

One has already been mentioned:  "The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy."

 

Go to Matt 23:37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often have I desired to gather your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! 38 See, your house (your city) is left to you, desolate.

...

 

Jerusalem by definition "Teaching of peace"

[8thdaypriest]

And I would guess that you believe that Satan was the "Lord" who told Moses that all the people were to stone the man who was picking up firewood on the Sabbath.  And Satan was the "Lord" who told Joshua to "kill everything that breathes" in the Canaanite cities which were "devoted to destruction". 

 

Not buying it.

[JoeMo]

Again, since He departed He couldn't have caused Miriam's leprosy.  He abandoned Miriam.  

 

This , ....and many evils and troubles (like leprosy) will come upon them, so that they will say in that day, 'Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?'

 

Since when does God have to be physically present to either curse or heal someone?  From my read of Numbers 12, God didn't physically show up to heal Miriam of her leprosy, either.  The fact that He healed her indicated that He didn't abandon her permanently.  Jesus didn't have to go to the centurion's house to heal his servant, either.

[Robert]

And I would guess that you believe that Satan was the "Lord" who told Moses that all the people were to stone the man who was picking up firewood on the Sabbath.  And Satan was the "Lord" who told Joshua to "kill everything that breathes" in the Canaanite cities which were "devoted to destruction". 

 

Not buying it.

 

Never hinted at that....

 

Israel, in their self-righteous state, chose to be under law instead of under grace.  When you sin under law what is the result?

 

1] Forgiveness?

 

or 

 

2] Death?

 

Answer:  # 2

 

Why?  The law demands performance in deed, action and thought.  It demands perfect, unblemished obedience. But to the sinner it demands death.

 

The Jews of the OT refused grace...they, in their pride, desired to be under law.  Hence the OC was established and its terms were, "obey & live, disobey & die"

 

Understanding this truth you need to re-read the following:

 

Number 15:32 While the people of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. 34 They put him in custody, because it had not been made plain what should be done to him. 35 And the LORD said to Moses, "The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." 36 And all the congregation brought him outside the camp, and stoned him to death with stones, as the LORD commanded Moses.

[Robert]

Since when does God have to be physically present to either curse or heal someone?  From my read of Numbers 12, God didn't physically show up to heal Miriam of her leprosy, either.  The fact that He healed her indicated that He didn't abandon her permanently.  Jesus didn't have to go to the centurion's house to heal his servant, either.

 

Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer . {MH 112–113} 

[LifeHiscost]

There is a study at my website - "The Wrath of God - A Different View". 

There are very few instances where God by direct action punished, or destroyed someone.

 

The LORD did instantly heal - so there is no reason to believe that He could not also punish instantly.  It just was not usual. 

Most often, He allowed nature and unbridled evil to take their course. 

 

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

Taking a "for instance" from Pharaoh's unwillingness to yield, where the circumstances went back and forth between God hardening his heart and pharaoh hardening his own heart, I would like to suggest since satan is referred to as the god of this world and the destroyer, and since God does not arbitrarily inflict pain, God's withdrawal from protection could be all the infliction of discipline necessary. However often in the OT God gives specific directions for or to people to inflict punishment, even to the death of individuals. If God was commonly  destroying, then this text below wouldn't be a strange act

 

21The Lord will come as he did against the Philistines at Mount Perazim

and against the Amorites at Gibeon.

He will come to do a strange thing;

he will come to do an unusual deed:

22For the Lord, the Lord of Heaven’s Armies,

has plainly said that he is determined to crush the whole land.

So scoff no more,

or your punishment will be even greater. Isaiah 28

 

This tells me that more often than not, when punishment is meted out, the tool used is the destroyer, and/or his angels.

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Aliensanctuary]

The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and the other towns points to the destruction of all transgressors at the end of time. Too bad for them that there won't be any "grace", or unmerited favor for any belonging to that group. Likewise, there is no "grace" for any who deliberately transgress the Creator's rules for human behavior. For those who obey the commandments of YHVH for his servants there is only love, but those who willingly disobey should be filled with great fear and trembling.

 

There is only "grace", or favor, towards those who have repented of their transgressions and who study and submit to the laws of YHVH, not for those who ignore or disrespect these laws. Many of these commandments point to the rules and regulations for us, as servants, in the Kingdom of YHVH including the rules and regulations for "holiness", or absence of evil, and for the treatment of each other.

[Aliensanctuary]

Of course, the rules and regulations for sacrificial animals with blemishes or defects will likely not apply in the Kingdom, neither those concerning skin diseases, menses, touching dead bodies, birth defects, etc. Those regulations were mainly to instill the concept of purity and reverence for YHVH, the Creator of life, here in this life.

[Aliensanctuary]

American cities, too, may suffer the same fate as the wicked cities near the Dead Sea. Our Master/Creator may very well choose to silence the cries of injustice, perversion, and murder and wipe the places clean of all life. YHVH's mercy and gift of life is for those who choose to serve him, but for those who choose and love evil, there is no mercy, only a fiery death.

[Robert]

According to the Bible "God is love".  The Greek for "love" is agape.  Agape is not an attribute of God, but who He is as God. How can a loving God physically destroy His fallen creation?  

[Sojourner]

According to the Bible "God is love".  The Greek for "love" is agape.  Agape is not an attribute of God, but who He is as God. How can a loving God physically destroy His fallen creation?  

 

God gives his creation free will and the consequence of free will is that people choose destruction for themselves by rejecting God.

 

In various places throughout the Old Testament its recorded that God sent his prophets to non Jewish people, towns and various places. Jonah is one example. God did not physically destroy anyone without calling them to Himself first.

 

Is it right to place human life on a pedestal and worship it and make the goal of increasing it the goal of human existance in the secular world. Could it be that God does not share the same humanistic ideals on earthly existance?

[Aliensanctuary]

Perhaps God should have destroyed Adam and Eve and started over, but unless the telepathic demons were silenced, evil would once again arise to reign on this world. Most, or all of us, too, would be quickly evicted from the Garden of Eden were we to gain entrance even for a moment.

 

The destruction of evil and all of those embracing it is only an act of mercy for the rest of the universe. Unmolested by selfish and murderous thoughts those inhabitants can live in a place where no one could even dream of harming others or disrespecting the Creator. 

 

If we understand our role as obedient servants of YHVH, we will be much closer to his Kingdom. Without love and respect for YHVH and others, our obedience is worthless.

[Gerr]

If the "flesh eating bacteria" has infected one of your limbs, would a surgeon cut it off to save you? 

[Gail]

Gerry! And Robert! Back together again! Brings back memories!

Love you both!! :)

[Aliensanctuary]

I think that the key factor in the permanent protection from evil re-appearing in the Kingdom of YHVH is submission to the memory wipe and the deletion of the sense of self in humans chosen to join. Without that, evil will keep re-appearing in never-ending cycles due to the extreme selfishness of human nature. The destruction of Sodom points to the destruction of the Babylon of the Last Days, the great cities of the world, and finally, everyone infected with the selfishness of evil who refuse to submit to the conditions for joining YHVH's Kingdom.