I've been told________________

[LifeHiscost]

____________________Christians and the person who subscribes to this tenet of faith, worship the same god, in peace.

 

They wish that you too should turn disbelievers the way they did, so that you all may become equal - so do not befriend any of them until they forsake their homes and families in Allah's cause; then if they turn back, seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and do not take any of them as a friend nor as a supporter.

You will now find others who desire that they should be safe from you and also safe from their own people; whenever their people turn them towards war, they fall headlong into it; so if they do not avoid (confronting) you nor submit an offer of peace nor restrain their hands, seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and they are the ones against whom We have given you clear authority.

 

Chapter 4 Verse 89, 91

 

The Christian's guide:

 

26Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets

27But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, 28Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. 29And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also. 30Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. 31And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. 32For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. 33And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. 34And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. 36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful....Luke 6

 

God is Love! Jesus saves! 

[Gregory Matthews]

Life, I have two major problems with your posting above:

 

1)  You have not cited an approved English translation of the Quran.

2) You have posted in a manner that your passages are taken out of context and presented in a manner that differs from what Islamic scholars would say that passage meant.

 

All of my comments wills be based upon: THE HOLY QURAN: ENGLISH TRANSLATION OF THE MANINGS AND COMMENTARY.  Revised and edited by The Presidency of Islamic Researches, IFTA, Call and Guidance.  Published by: The Custodian of The Two Holy Mosques King Fahd Complex For the Printing  of the Holy Quran.  2082+ pages, dated: 1413 H.

 

NOTE:  Unless I state otherwise, all of my comments will come from Surah #4,of the above book.  [The Quran is divided into Surah, which we might call chapters and Ayat, which we might call verses.  The Quran is considered to be one book.]

 

Surah # 4 is divided into some 24 sections and consists of 176 Ayat.  The preface to Surah $ states that it has two themes:  1) Family rights in general terms, women, orphans, inheritance, and marriage.  2) How to deal with Hypocrites within the larger Islamic family at Madinah.  Therefore, to start out with, that passage that you cited deals with Islamics who wer hypocrites, or to put it another way, Islamics who formulated secret plots against the true believers.  You may want to read Sections 7 - 9, or Ayat 43 -70 if you want to check up on what I have said.

 

Section 12 covers Ayat 88 - 91.

 

In commenting on Ayat 89 the scholars talk about the person who by false pretenses has committed treason and/or deserted and is a traitor to the cause.  This is clearly not someone who is not an Islamic. 

 

I notice that you failed to cite Ayat 90:  This is of interest in that it clearly talks about a time of war in which they were to enter into a treaty of peace if their enemies were willing to cease warfare against them.  It would have been better if you had included this in your comments.

 

Also, you have only quoted a part of Ayat 91.  The section that you left out clearly talks about deserters who have returned in sorrow and claimed they would defend Islam and after they were given grace, under the provisions of Ayat 90, they again committed treason against Allah.

 

NOTE:  In some cases, I have used the Islamic spellings rather than the English spellings.

 

My friend, there is much more that I could say.  But, I will leave it at this point.  The bottom line is that you have mis-represented what the

Quran says.    I do not attribute either malice or intent to you.  I suspect that you have probably never held a Quran in your hands and have only read what others have said about it.  That is simply ignorance, error and poor scholarship, which applies to all of us at times.  Welcome to the human race.

[LifeHiscost]

 

My friend, there is much more that I could say.  But, I will leave it at this point.  The bottom line is that you have mis-represented what the

Quran says.    I do not attribute either malice or intent to you.  I suspect that you have probably never held a Quran in your hands and have only read what others have said about it.  That is simply ignorance, error and poor scholarship, which applies to all of us at times.  Welcome to the human race.

I appreciate your concern. I should have left the URL from which it was obtained. If you can show from the Holy Bible where the same spirit as is evidenced in the Qu'ran, exists after Jesus came the first time as a babe, I'll apologize and admit an error. And since God is Love and never changes, even if you can show something He commanded His children from the old testament that wasn't designed to preserve those who accepted His leadership, commands given out of love, dedicated to bring about One Shepherd under one fold, I'll apologize. I encourage you to follow the URL address before making any more definitive conclusions.

 

…15even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16"I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. 17"For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.…John 10

 

59For thus says the Lord GOD, "I will also do with you as you have done, you who have despised the oath by breaking the covenant. 60"Nevertheless, I will remember My covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you. 61"Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed when you receive your sisters, both your older and your younger; and I will give them to you as daughters, but not because of your covenant.…Ezek 16

 

…15and I will remember My covenant, which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and never again shall the water become a flood to destroy all flesh. 16"When the bow is in the cloud, then I will look upon it, to remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth." 17And God said to Noah, "This is the sign of the covenant which I have established between Me and all flesh that is on the earth."

 

http://quran.com/4/89-91to

 

God is Love! Jesus save! 

[Gregory Matthews]

Life:  I did not speak to the Bible.  The Bible had nothing to do with my post.  I did not attempt to show how the Bible and the Quran either differ or are similar.  So, as I did not speak to that, I will not attempt to show you from the Bible, as you asked.

 

What I attempted to do was to suggest that you has taken a passage from the Quran out of context and that you had attempted to tell us that it said something that Islamic scholars would deny.

 

I have gone to the website that you referenced and I am now further convinced of what I said.  The URL took me to an abridged part of the Quran.    Traditional Islamics would recoil in horror at anyone who attempted to abridge what they call the word of God.  Further. I also went to the expanded section, and nowhere did your Website give the Islamic commentary.  IF you want to tell us what the Quran says/means, in the manner that you did, you should correlate it with what the Islamic scholars say your cited passages means.  This is crucially important in working with Islam and the Quran.

 

If you have read the Quran, for yourself along with the commentary, and not just taken the word of others, you can speak with some authority.  Islam and the Quran are very complex.  If you depend solely upon what others say about it, you are likely not to understand, at some point.

[LifeHiscost]

Life:  I did not speak to the Bible.  The Bible had nothing to do with my post.  I did not attempt to show how the Bible and the Quran either differ or are similar.  So, as I did not speak to that, I will not attempt to show you from the Bible, as you asked.

 

If you have read the Quran, for yourself along with the commentary, and not just taken the word of others, you can speak with some authority.  Islam and the Quran are very complex.  If you depend solely upon what others say about it, you are likely not to understand, at some point.

I humbly submit to be satisfied this below answers well enough for me, that what you have suggested still does not reflect adequate knowledge to consider all that you need to know about my intelligence on the subject under discussion, before you are able to speak for anyone definitively except yourself, despite all your self assurance of wisdom in your answer.

 

 

 

  

God is Willing to Teach Others—The idea that one man’s mind and judgment can mold and direct important interests, and that he can be regarded as a voice for the people, is a great evil, and has, and still continues to endanger the one who is placed in a position of responsibility, and those also who cooperate with him. God has not given to any one man all the wisdom, and wisdom will not die with him. Those placed in positions of trust should modestly regard the opinions of others as worthy of respect and likely to be as correct as their own. They should remember that God has made other men just as valuable as they are, and that God is willing to teach and guide these men.—Manuscript 55, 1897 (June 3, 1897, Development of Workers). {ChL 36.4}

Credit Others With Some Sense—I have been shown that there is one practice which those in responsible places should avoid; for it is detrimental to the work of God. Men in position should not lord it over God’s heritage and command everything around them. Too many have marked out a prescribed one which they wish others to follow in the work. Workers have tried to do this with blind faith, without exercising their own judgment upon the matter which they had in hand. If those who were placed as directors were not present, they have followed their implicit directions just the same. But in the name of Christ, I would entreat you to stop this work. Give men a chance to exercise their individual judgment.{ChL 37.1}

 

I would like to suggest the term "micro-manage others" would be suitable in describing this case.

 

 Gos is Love! Jesus saves!

[Gregory Matthews]

Life:  Anytime you reference somthing, whether it is from the Bible or something else, you open yourself up to being told that you have not been accurate in what you said.

 

Frankly, I was not attempting to micro-manage you.  Rather that posting in an attempt to change you, I posted for the other people who might read your post.

 

Frankly, you were not accurate in what you implied about the passage in the Quran that you referenced.  As  you were not the focus of my post, I do not insist that you answer what I posted.  I was focused on others who might read.  It is fine with me if you do not respond for their benefit.

[Gregory Matthews]

Life, in yuour post # 6, you cited a small section of what EGW said, out of context.  Here is a fuller section from which you quoted:

 

Molding Other Men's Minds--How my heart aches to see presidents of conferences taking the burden of selecting those whom they think they can mold to work with them in the field.  They take those who will not differ with them, but will act like mere machines.  No president has any right to do this.  Leave others to plan; and if they fail in some things, do not take it as an evidence that they are unfitted to be thinkers.  Our most responsible men had to learn by a long discipline how to use their judgment.--Testimonies to Ministers, p. 304. {ChL 36.3}

     God is Willing to Teach Others--The idea that one man's mind and judgment can mold and direct important interests, and that he can be regarded as a voice for the people, is a great evil, and has, and still continues to endanger the one who is placed in a position of responsibility, and those also who cooperate with him.  God has not given to any one man all the wisdom, and wisdom will not die with him.  Those placed in positions of trust should modestly regard the
37
opinions of others as worthy of respect and likely to be as correct as their own.  They should remember that God has made other men just as valuable as they are, and that God is willing to teach and guide these men.--Manuscript 55, 1897 (June 3, 1897, Development of Workers). {ChL 36.4}

     Credit Others With Some Sense--I have been shown that there is one practice which those in responsible places should avoid; for it is detrimental to the work of God.  Men in position should not lord it over God's heritage and command everything around them.  Too many have marked out a prescribed one which they wish others to follow in the work.  Workers have tried to do this with blind faith, without exercising their own judgment upon the matter which they had in hand.  If those who were placed as directors were not present, they have followed their implicit directions just the same.  But in the name of Christ, I would entreat you to stop this work.  Give men a chance to exercise their individual judgment. {ChL 37.1}
     Men who follow the leading of another, and are willing that another should think for them, are unfit to be entrusted with responsibility.  Our leading men are remiss in this matter.  God has not given to special ones all the brain power there is in the world.  Men in responsible positions should credit others with some sense, with some ability of judgment and foresight and look upon them as capable of doing the work committed to their hands. {ChL 37.2}
     Our leading brethren have made a great mistake in marking out all the directions that the workers should follow, and this has resulted in deficiency, in a lack of the care-taking spirit in the workers because they have relied upon others to do all their planning, and have themselves taken no responsibility.  Should the men who have taken this responsibility upon themselves step out of our ranks, or die, what a state of things would be found in our institutions. {ChL 37.3}
     Leading men should place responsibilities upon others, and allow time to plan and devise and execute, so that they may obtain an experience.  Give them a word of counsel when necessary, but do not take away the work because you think the brethren are making mistakes.  May God pity the cause when one man's mind and one man's plan are followed without question.  God would not be honored should such a state of things exist. {ChL 37.4}
38
 
     All our workers must have room to exercise their own judgment and discretion.  God has given men talents which He means that they should use.  He has given them minds and He means that they should become thinkers, and do their own thinking and planning rather than depend upon others to think and plan for them.--Letter 12, 1885, (Oct. 28, 1885, To Brn. Butler and Haskell). {ChL 38.1}

     Position No Authority to Dictate--Every branch of the work of God is to have recognition.  "He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ." Ephesians 4:11, 12.  This scripture shows that there are to be different workers, different instrumentalities.  Each has a different work.  No one is required to lay hold of another's work, and, though untrained, try to do it.  God has given to each according to his ability.  One man may think that his position gives him authority to dictate to other workers, but this is not so.  Ignorant of their work, he would enlarge where he should retrench, and retrench where he should enlarge, because he can see only the part of the vineyard where he is working.--Testimonies, Vol. 8, pp. 170, 171. {ChL 38.2}

 

People who read what you have quoted will likely miss what EGW was writing about--denominational leaders, see her use of the word Presidents.

 

NOTE:  I have taken my quotation from CHL, as that is where Life took his.  Part of that is in 8T beginning on page 170.  But, the entire passage which came frokm CHL is NOT printed in 8T, beginning on page 170 so, do not look for all ofit there.

.

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Context is important.  Outside of context one might take Matthew 24:17 to tell us that a certain style of hair was not acceptable to God.  In context, one could not do so with that verse.

 

NOTE:

 

1)  To understand my point, one would have to read the verse in the KJV.  More modern translations lose it.  Also, as you read that verse, listen to the sound and pay no attention to the spelling of the words.

 

2)  I do not know of Life ever telling us that God objected to a specific style of hair.   So, I am not suggesting that he has used Matthew 24:17 in that manner.  All I am doing is making a generalized point as to what one can do outside of context, which is important.

 

3)  I hope you had fun with this:      .

 

NOTE:  It may be dangerous to be either eating or drinking while you figure out the meaning of my reference to Matthew 24:17.  If you are either eating or drinking, when it hits you, Revelation 3:16 may come to pass--you can read that verse in the modern translations.

[LifeHiscost]

Context is important.  Outside of context one might take Matthew 24:17 to tell us that a certain style of hair was not acceptable to God.  In context, one could not do so with that verse.

 

NOTE:

 

1)  To understand my point, one would have to read the verse in the KJV.  More modern translations lose it.  Also, as you read that verse, listen to the sound and pay no attention to the spelling of the words.

 

2)  I do not know of Life ever telling us that God objected to a specific style of hair.   So, I am not suggesting that he has used Matthew 24:17 in that manner.  All I am doing is making a generalized point as to what one can do outside of context, which is important.

 

3)  I hope you had fun with this:      .

While being in context can be helpful in arriving at definitive conclusions, I choose to draw conclusions as to Biblical principles from the Bible itself. The maxim, "scripture taken out of context is a pretext", is a man made platform and erroneous as it implies a persons intentions restricts the flow of Truth to man's limited capacity based on his own wisdom, rather than God's understanding of the seekers heart.

 

9“Who does the Lord think we are?” they ask.

“Why does he speak to us like this?

Are we little children,

just recently weaned?

10He tells us everything over and over—

one line at a time,

one line at a time,

a little here,

and a little there!”

11So now God will have to speak to his people

through foreign oppressors who speak a strange language!

12God has told his people,

“Here is a place of rest;

let the weary rest here.

This is a place of quiet rest.”

But they would not listen.

13So the Lord will spell out his message for them again,

one line at a time,

one line at a time,

a little here,

and a little there,

so that they will stumble and fall.

They will be injured, trapped, and captured.... Isaiah 28

 

God is Love! Jesus saves! 

[Gregory Matthews]

Life,  There is not one word of truth in your following statement.

 

 

 

The maxim, "scripture taken out of context is a pretext", is a man made platform and erroneous as it implies a persons intentions restricts the flow of Truth to man's limited capacity based on his own wisdom, rather than God's understanding of the seekers heart.

 

To read something in context, certainly does not imply anything about the intentions of the person who posted a comment.

 

To take something in context does not restrict God's ability to understand the human heart.

 

Life:  You simply do not understand.  You seem to be limited to your human understanding.

 

Well, my brother (on the assumption that you are a male.), have a good Sabbath.

 

By the way, in find it interesting that in your quoted passage from Isaiah 28, you neglect to tell us sthe translaton that you used.   It is clearly neither the NKJV, nor the NIV.    O.K.  this prevents us from checking to see if you have accurately quoted the verses.

[FallingRock44]

    LifeHisCost is quoting from the New Living Translation.   When in doubt try running the phrase through

http://biblehub.com   

Always helps me find out in what trans the verse/ verses might be found.

[LifeHiscost]

Life,  There is not one word of truth in your following statement.

 

To read something in context, certainly does not imply anything about the intentions of the person who posted a comment.

 

To take something in context does not restrict God's ability to understand the human heart.

 

Life:  You simply do not understand.  You seem to be limited to your human understanding.

 

Well, my brother (on the assumption that you are a male.), have a good Sabbath.

 

By the way, in find it interesting that in your quoted passage from Isaiah 28, you neglect to tell us sthe translaton that you used.   It is clearly neither the NKJV, nor the NIV.    O.K.  this prevents us from checking to see if you have accurately quoted the verses.

 

 

 

noun

noun: pretext; plural noun: pretexts

1. a reason given in justification of a course of action that is not the real reason.

   "the rebels had the perfect pretext for making their move"

   synonyms: excuse, false excuse, ostensible reason, alleged reason;

   guise, ploy, pretense, ruse

   "he used the pretext of looking for his dog to come into our yard"

Origin

 

early 16th century: from Latin praetextus ‘outward display,’ from the verb praetexere ‘to disguise,’ from prae ‘before’ + texere ‘weave.’

 

BTW, after having been called a liar by one with such a prestigious background, spiritually it was a real strengthener to wait a short season of time before answering. I wonder if that's what it means to love your enemy. No matter what your emotions are telling you. So much for arguing for the Truth.

Keep looking up.

God is Love!  Jesus saves!

[Gregory Matthews]

Life:  IF you suggested that i called you a liar, I did not.  As you have have quoted me, I stated that there was not one word of truth in someting.  That is quite different from calling someone a liar.

 

I liar is one who intentionally attempts to decive another.

 

Someone who is simply lignorant, by tell an untruth, but they are not a liar.

 

 

 

I said you wre wrong.  I did not say you were a  liar.

 

All of us, me included are wrong, at times.

 

Few of us ar liars.

 

NOTE:  AS you did not name me, perhaps I was not your reference.  Who knows.  Only you, I guess.

[LifeHiscost]

Life:  IF you suggested that i called you a liar, I did not.  As you have have quoted me, I stated that there was not one word of truth in someting.  That is quite different from calling someone a liar.

 

I liar is one who intentionally attempts to decive another.

 

Someone who is simply lignorant, by tell an untruth, but they are not a liar.

 

 

 

I said you wre wrong.  I did not say you were a  liar.

 

All of us, me included are wrong, at times.

 

Few of us ar liars.

 

NOTE:  AS you did not name me, perhaps I was not your reference.  Who knows.  Only you, I guess.

As I said, So much for arguing for the Truth. At home even that is condensed to, "Whatever".    So I'm ignorant, at least to some who think they're not.

 

Hope your Sabbath is blessed. Sincerely! I think you could use the refresher.

 

1Thus says the LORD, "Preserve justice and do righteousness, For My salvation is about to come And My righteousness to be revealed. 2"How blessed is the man who does this....Isaiah 56

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves!