Torture

[Gerr]

The report regarding CIA activities to obtain information will be released tomorrow.  Is torture EVER justified?  If someone is caught who knows where a nuclear device is hidden that could wipe out NYC, or LA, is torture justified to make him tell where it is?.  

[Kevin H]

I do not feel comfortable with it, and the US has traditionally received more intelligence through using kindness. And from what I heard on the news it also appears that the torture did not give us any information.  

[Sojourner]

I am guessing they would not do it if it did not actually work. It would be ideal if it never happened at all, yet with the sheer depravity that exists in our world I cant see it ending any time soon.

[Gail]

Recently I read a biography of Katherine Howard, fifth wife of Henry VIII. Those who were reputed to be her lovers were tortured to get a confession. Torture was routinely used in the Tudor era. But I remember how even at the time the confessions, although providing the "evidence" needed to condemn the accused, were not trusted as reliable confessions because of the torture. The same goes for those who were beheaded in the Anne Boleyn scandal. It did the job but it makes one wonder how many innocent persons died as either the direct result of the torture or from false confessions gained from those desperate situations of physical distress?

How can you ever remove the doubt that the words spoken under duress are actually true?

[Gerr]

It is one thing to torture someone on suspicion, but if there is irrefutable evidence that  the suspect actually knows where that bomb is that could wipe out a whole city, is it justified? 

[Bravus]

Read the report: this 'ticking bomb' scenario is often used to justify torture, but was never the case in any of the actual instances.

'Extreme cases make bad law': better to just outlaw torture entirely than to open the doors to abuse, which certainly occurred in these cases (for example, people who had done nothing wrong were tortured to coerce others).

 

I would say *never ever*. If there ever *was* a ticking bomb, that would be a decision that would have to be made by the person in the situation, knowing that he would have to face trial if he decided to torture. 

[lazarus]

I am guessing they would not do it if it did not actually work. It would be ideal if it never happened at all, yet with the sheer depravity that exists in our world I cant see it ending any time soon.

 

The report indicates that often it did not work and in fact it led to misleading information.

[Bravus]

1. Humans do *plenty* of terrible things that don't work - and all the evidence is that torture doesn't work

 

2. Even if it did work, would that make it right? Particularly with the possibility of mistakes leading to innocent people being tortured?

[Bravus]

I borrowed this from a Facebook post. It is a true story:

 

 

Pretend for the sake of argument that you are a young Afghan man. You are in your early twenties. You are not a member of the Taliban. You are just a young man trying to earn a living, stumbling his way through the world the same way the rest of us do. And one of the ways you do this is by driving a taxi.

And one day you pick up three passengers who look like you and every other citizen of your country who you have ever met. You agree to drive them somewhere, in exchange for a fare.

Forces loyal to the local guerilla commander stop the car, arrest you and the other three men, and hand you over to the Americans.

Remember. You have done nothing.

But there has been an attack on the local American base and these three guys you never met before are believed to be in some way connected, and that means you must be connected.

The Americans demand information you don’t have. When you say you know nothing, they drag you off to a dungeon and hang you from an overhead pole. Your toes barely touch the floor. Your wrists are on fire. You still plead your innocence. The Americans start beating your legs with clubs. They break your legs in several places. They in fact pulverize your legs; and it will be discovered in subsequent days that they do so much damage that even if you lived, which you won’t, they would need to be amputated. (Remember, you’re in your early twenties; so much for any dreams you might have of living a full and productive life, providing for a family that now includes a two-year-old daughter, but that doesn’t matter much, as you will not live to ever see the outside of this room.)

At one point you beg for water, because being tortured to death is thirsty work. You are in a chair at this point, and the guy torturing you gives you a plastic water bottle only after punching a hole in the bottom. Its contents spill out onto your lap while you are still fumbling with it. You get only drops. They laugh at you and resume your torment. Ha, ha, ha.

In the four days of nonstop torture you endure, you are dragged around the room by your beard, you are beaten in the knees, you have your head slammed against the wall, you are hung from the ceiling overnight and subjected to sleep deprivation, your feet are crushed, you are told you are lying, and you are beaten more for “refusing” to get to your knees when your legs are so swollen they can no longer bend. You are ultimately left hanging from your pole for so long that when they finally come back to check on you, you are not just dead – having known God alone knows what terror as you hung there in this Kafkaesque nightmare feeling life slip from you. You have actually entered rigor mortis.

All this at the hands of the country that hanged Japanese officers for water-boarding people.

Your name is Dilawar, and this happened to you in 2002.

It doesn’t matter that subsequent investigation documented that you were, in fact, exactly what you always claimed to be, a ... taxi driver, or that the soldiers who did this to you receive light punishment – slaps on the wrist.

It doesn't matter that the three guys you picked up in your role as taxi driver go to Guantanamo (and are eventually released).

You, the innocent one, are still dead.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilawar_%28torture_victim%29

[GoLions]

I don't always agree with Bravus, but in this instance I will make an exception.  Torture is from the devil.  It's an eye opener to hear Rush Limbaugh or Shaun Hannity  endorse torture...either way, (whether they endorse or condone) it is coming to a Christ follower near you, soon.

[Gerr]

Let's forget what the CIA has done for the moment.  Is there ANY scenario in which you might employ forceful coercion including torture like the ticking nuclear bomb that I described?  Or how about some  something that has actually happened - like someone who was kidnapped for ransom and placed coffin underground with a finite air supply (put your own child in that coffin)?  Or how about a busload of kids buried underground (Chowchilla 1976)? If the information obtained is true, the bomb or the child/ren  would be found.

[CoAspen]

Let's forget what the CIA has done for the moment.  Is there ANY scenario in which you might employ forceful coercion including torture like the ticking nuclear bomb that I described?  Or how about some  something that has actually happened - like someone who was kidnapped for ransom and placed coffin underground with a finite air supply (put your own child in that coffin)?  Or how about a busload of kids buried underground (Chowchilla 1976)? If the information obtained is true, the bomb or the child/ren  would be found.

A fair question, The circumstances and time factor could well dictate the decisions a person makes. I don't have an answer for your scenario's, personally.

 

Everything that I have read indicates that torture is not very reliable over the long haul because of the suspect nature of 'info' obtained.

[Bravus]

I think that the problem is that these very extreme scenarios that we can *imagine*, but that as far as I know have never happened in real life, only in fiction and imagination, are used to justify torture in situations that are *not* these extreme scenarios. None of the instances in the CIA report were these kinds of scenarios.

Given that, I still think that the *policy* should be 'never, ever'.

If, perchance, a very extreme and improbable situation ever did occur in the real world, the person involved would have a very difficult decision to make. But that's kind of the point: the decision to torture *should* be an extremely difficult decision!

Making up fictional scenarios for philosophical debates is one thing, but when it's used to justify torture in other situations, it's very dangerous sophistry.

[hch]

I think that the problem is that these very extreme scenarios that we can *imagine*, but that as far as I know have never happened in real life, only in fiction and imagination, are used to justify torture in situations that are *not* these extreme scenarios. None of the instances in the CIA report were these kinds of scenarios.

Given that, I still think that the *policy* should be 'never, ever'.

If, perchance, a very extreme and improbable situation ever did occur in the real world, the person involved would have a very difficult decision to make. But that's kind of the point: the decision to torture *should* be an extremely difficult decision!

Making up fictional scenarios for philosophical debates is one thing, but when it's used to justify torture in other situations, it's very dangerous sophistry.

 

What was done in secret is now being proclaimed from the rooftops.

But the public torture debate appears to be focusing on the ends vs the means.

 

One man observed that America prosecuted Germans at the end of WWII for doing

the very things that are labeled as enhanced interrogation techniques in this report.

[lazarus]

Why will no one be prosecuted for these particular war crimes?

 

the Tokyo Trials, officially known as the International Military Tribunal for the Far East. After World War II, an international coalition convened to prosecute Japanese soldiers charged with torture. At the top of the list of techniques was water-based interrogation, known variously then as "water cure," "water torture" and "waterboarding," according to the charging documents. It simulates drowning.

....A number of the Japanese soldiers convicted by American judges were hanged, while others received lengthy prison sentences or time in labor camps.

 

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2007/dec/18/john-mccain/history-supports-mccains-stance-on-waterboarding/

 

I guess when Americans do it, it is no longer a crime.

[CoAspen]

To the victor go the spoils.

[lazarus]

I watched Dick Cheney's interview with Chuck Todd on Sunday. It was a telling moment when he simply ignored the fact that 30% of the torture victims were innocent. He also had no remorse over the innocent detainee who froze to death chained to a wall. A despicable person.

[phkrause]

He's also one of the reasons Colin Powell got out of politics!

[LifeHiscost]

  Torture is from the devil.  ..either way, (whether they endorse or condone) it is coming to a Christ follower near you, soon.

And that's the best reason I can think for suiting up now.

 

13Therefore, put on every piece of God’s armor so you will be able to resist the enemy in the time of evil. Then after the battle you will still be standing firm. 14Stand your ground, putting on the belt of truth and the body armor of God’s righteousness. 15For shoes, put on the peace that comes from the Good News so that you will be fully prepared.^d 16In addition to all of these, hold up the shield of faith to stop the fiery arrows of the devil.^e 17Put on salvation as your helmet, and take the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

18Pray in the Spirit at all times and on every occasion. Stay alert and be persistent in your prayers for all believers everywhere.^{....Ephesians 6}

 

1And working together with Him, we also urge you not to receive the grace of God in vain-- 2for He says, "AT THE ACCEPTABLE TIME I LISTENED TO YOU, AND ON THE DAY OF SALVATION I HELPED YOU." Behold, now is "THE ACCEPTABLE TIME," behold, now is "THE DAY OF SALVATION "-- 3giving no cause for offense in anything, so that the ministry will not be discredited,…2 Cor 6

 

God is Live! Jesus saves!

[Gerr]

I think that the problem is that these very extreme scenarios that we can *imagine*, but that as far as I know have never happened in real life, only in fiction and imagination, are used to justify torture in situations that are *not* these extreme scenarios. None of the instances in the CIA report were these kinds of scenarios.

Given that, I still think that the *policy* should be 'never, ever'.

If, perchance, a very extreme and improbable situation ever did occur in the real world, the person involved would have a very difficult decision to make. But that's kind of the point: the decision to torture *should* be an extremely difficult decision!

Making up fictional scenarios for philosophical debates is one thing, but when it's used to justify torture in other situations, it's very dangerous sophistry.

The last two scenarios I described were not fictional.

[lazarus]

One thing that will be comforting to know during the time of trouble if we are waterboarded is that it isn't really torture.

[hch]

One thing that will be comforting to know during the time of trouble if we are waterboarded is that it isn't really torture.

 

Doesn't Isaiah say something about going through the water and it shall not overflow us? and the fire not burning us?

[lazarus]

Doesn't Isaiah say something about going through the water and it shall not overflow us? and the fire not burning us?

 

God would not have to intervene in a water boarding situation because it is only and enhanced interrogation technique so this text does not apply.