Is satire useful?

[lazarus]

NB: The Charlie Hebdo attacks made me think about this but this is not meant to be a thread about Islam, terrorism etc.

 

Barely Adventist makes me laugh, Charlie Hebdo provoked stong emotions and violence. What is the role of satire and how useful is it?

[CoAspen]

It can be...take ourselves a little less seriously, like a reality check!

[Gail]

I had a related discussion a couple of days ago...  only the theme was more like how far do you censor and how much responsibility should come with the freedom of expression?

[lazarus]

 the theme was more like how far do you censor and how much responsibility should come with the freedom of expression?

 

We can add that to this thread.

[Gail]

There are times when I can laugh at myself. But when I laugh at others, am I bullying?

[Bravus]

For me, satire has to be clever. There are a lot of sites around the web that just publish stories that are false, and then say that they are 'satire'... no, they're unclever click bait. The Onion is very clever and well executed, and people like John Oliver do it well.

One of my comments around Charlie Hebdo was that while I absolutely deplore the murderous response, I could wish the thing being defended was more worthy of defense (I feel the same about The Interview). The humor in the Charlie Hebdo cartoons was oftyen heavy-handed, vulgar and cruel. Apparently Voltaire didn't say it but it's often credited to him: I disagree with what you say but will defend your right to say it.

But, leaving those issues aside (and I think some of them are about taste while others are more substantive), I do think clever, well written and well thought out satire can make us think. It can also make us laugh, something not to be undervalued.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I tend to really enjoy satire... but then I tend to enjoy poking at those who are so adamant in their beliefs that they can't see any other perspective..

 

 The humor in the Charlie Hebdo cartoons was oftyen heavy-handed, vulgar and cruel. 

but I think the Charlie Hebdo is very much in the manner of French humor.... a lot of humor is culturally-based..

 

 

 

There are times when I can laugh at myself. But when I laugh at others, am I bullying?

 

My first inclination is, "no" .... but I think it depends on the circumstances. 

 

A few months ago, my mom got angry when I laughed as she told me what happened to her.  I couldn't help it.  She said was walking on the sidewalk downtown, and there was a man in a suit coming towards her.  Now, you need to understand that my mom is the epitome of class and respectability.  But as she was walking, she didn't see a little pile of poo that a dog had dropped on the sidewalk.  She said she stepped in it in midstride, and slid about 10 feet, to where the gentleman was standing open-mouthed, watching her.  Mom was mad that the incident had happened, but I think it made her even more so that *I* was laughing.  (it even makes me laugh now...)  

[lazarus]

Pope Francis:  "If my good friend Dr. Gasparri says a curse word against my mother, he can expect a punch. It's normal. It's normal. You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others."

[Gail]

Hmm... Is that the spirit of Jesus, though?

[lazarus]

Hmm... Is that the spirit of Jesus, though?

 

No, but It's his mama we are talking about.

 

Seriously though, are there no boundaries or no limits on what one should say? I'm not talking about legal limits. They are already established.

[Stan]

Sometimes truth can be told in satire and in no other way.

[Gail]

I think it comes down to- Who is willing to venture to be the Thought Police, in our Western world of freedom? and in lieu of that, can Man be trusted to have the class and the sense of responsibility to wisely publish as to build up relations and not to tear down?

[Gail]

Or... is it more desired to be clever at all cost and not build up at all?

 

Sadly, personally I feel that the Charlie Hebdo comics may reflect a sentiment that has been running in France in the general population for the last several years due to mass immigration from N. Africa.

[CoAspen]

Gail,

Interesting questions and thoughts.

[JoeMo]

There is an art to using satire - it's all in the timing, wording, and atmosphere.  For example, comidians get away with murder concerning some of their satire and sarcasm.  But we expect it in a "show" environment.  If they said those things to people on the street, it may be the last words they ever speak.  Satire is best used against issues - not people.

[Neil D]

Pope Francis:  "If my good friend Dr. Gasparri says a curse word against my mother, he can expect a punch. It's normal. It's normal. You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others."

Since when did saying a curse word against a mother become a matter of faith?   Respect for your elders and defending that respect is one thing....fighting  for one's faith because it is insulted is totally another......

Saying something veiled in satire gives one the option of saying, "I didn't say that"....and it gives another person time to be amused and thought provoking also....but if it doesn't suceed in it's goal of producing thought, then it does nothing more than insult an ideal....

[Tom Wetmore]

I understand him to be giving that as an example of hpw saying something about that which is near and dear to another person's heart understandably will provoke a strong emotional response in defense no matter the motive or intent of the speaker.

[Neil D]

.......but does not that religion which is "near and dear to another person's heart" become more fanatical than faith???  If a person can not make the distinction between  a person's faith  vs satire, does that not become the basis for fanatisim?  Can one say that a violent response to satire is "normal"?  Since when is fanatism "normal"?

I am sorry, but for me, the logical endpoints are all wrong.....

[Tom Wetmore]

I didn't understand him to be trying to justify the response or condone it or describe it as acceptably normal, but more that it should not be unexpected as a response. It,was more,acknowledging a fact or human nature.

[Stan]

What about terroristic satire?

[Kevin H]

Sometimes satire of painful topics can make the topic easier to deal with. Also, that fact that some evil things can be made humorous or into poem or other forms of art shows that the beauty is more powerful than the ugly.

[Naomi]

Sometimes truth can be told in satire and in no other way.

That is an interesting statement.  When a person choses to use satire how do we know if it is just humor; or making a point at all cost  while hiding behind the cover of satire?  

 

Perhaps I am stuck in a time warp, but do we not have a responsibility to treat all with respect ... even if we disagree with their culture, religion, etc.

 

No, it's not acceptable for the object of the ridicule  to  give them a black eye, or blow up their buildings when they openly make fun of you (print satire) but it can be a hard pill to take

 

Satire can be used with class and be absolutely hysterical it can also be insulting and belittling.  Humor is great but has its appropriate place in life ...We can laugh with a person or laugh at them

[JoeMo]

Getting back to the satire in Barely Adventist, I thinks it's pure fun.  We need to be able to laugh at ourselves.

 

I was raised Catholic more than half a century ago; and the things that happen in Catholic schools (pedophelia excluded).  We get together at class reunions and make fun of it, because it is so funny (although it was deadly serious at the time).  Being able to take something unpleasant and change it into something humorous through satire is medicine for the heart.  Taking something unpleasant and turning it into and insult or embarrassment through satire is divisive and alienating.

[lazarus]

That is an interesting statement.  When a person choses to use satire how do we know if it is just humor; or making a point at all cost  while hiding behind the cover of satire?  

 

Perhaps I am stuck in a time warp, but do we not have a responsibility to treat all with respect ... even if we disagree with their culture, religion, etc.

 

 

Satire: the use of irony, sarcasm, ridicule, or the like, in exposing, denouncing, or deriding vice, folly,

 

I would say Jesus used satire.....

 

Blind guides! You strain your water so you won't accidentally swallow a gnat, but you swallow a camel!

 

You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

 

I'll say it again--it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!"

[Neil D]

So, let's bring this down a little closer to where WE live.....

In the midst of a discussion, someone uses satire against what you have said.....how do you react? 

 

In a "for example", this  scenerio is to indicate a possible discussion and is in no way litterally directly tied to the subject at hand- Is satire a useful tool ?

If you honestly hold a position, ie the Godhead is about a 3 personallitied God in One body vs three distinct, but unified Beings ....and someone says to you that smacks of a non-agreeing tone, "Surely you don't believe in a Polytheism"? and then proceeds to produce some satire to contradict your point of view......How do you react?

Do you feel foolish and immediately remove yourself from the discussion?

Do  you go away feeling that you should have said something far more witty than his satiral position?
Do you claim up and not say a word afterward?
Do you loose it and want to launch into a larger discourse bringing in other points to bear on the subject?

What do you do?