Some things are just not meant to be nailed down...

[Scuba]

When something is so great and complex it instills a sense of reverence in the finite.

 

1 Timothy 3:16 The mystery that gives us our reverence for God is acknowledged to be great: He appeared in his human nature, was approved by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was announced throughout the nations, was believed in the world, and was taken to heaven in glory.

 

When trying to nail down the Eternal you will find endless debate, frustration and discouragement maybe because it's not meant to be nailed down.

 

Isaiah 66:1 The Lord says, “Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. What kind of house, then, could you build for me, what kind of place for me to live in?

 

I have studied the nature of God for years and have gotten no closer to nailing something down then when I first began. 

 

When you study and talk with Trinitarians you find they are right and wrong. When you study and talk with Oneness people you find that they are right and wrong.

 

Why is this?

 

I'll tell you why, because we are all right yet we are all wrong.

 

When you study both Old and New Testament you will find Trinitarians are right and you will find Oneness people are right. The when you study even more you will find Trinitarians are wrong and Oneness people are right. Then when you study even more you will find both Trinitarians and Oneness are wrong yet they are right.

 

Why is this?

 

Because the fullness of the Godhead is manifested in Jesus. Listen to this prophetic verse.

 

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

 

When you focus on one aspect of the Godhead in Jesus you will be right in what you find.

 

You will find that Jesus is the Father. You will find that Jesus is the Spirit. You will find that Jesus is the Son. You will find that they are all one in the same yet they are different and individual. All we can say is yes to all the fullness of the Godhead in Christ.

 

Now go and love God and love others and let the mystery of God instill a sense of reverence in our hearts.

 

[JoeMo]

The only places in scripture where all three Members of the Godhead seem to be mentioned are at Jesus' baptism and in Matt: 28:19, where the disciples are directed to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  I'm not convinced that that "proves" a Trinity; nor am I convinced that it doesn't prove it.

 

I wonder when I pray sometimes about praying to God as an single entity or to one of the 3 Members (depending on what I'm praying about).  I don't lose any sleep over it, though.

[Scuba]

The only places in scripture where all three Members of the Godhead seem to be mentioned are at Jesus' baptism and in Matt: 28:19, where the disciples are directed to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  

 

I wish your above statement was true because it would make things so much easier.

[JoeMo]

Scuba says:

"I wish your above statement was true because it would make things so much easier."

Where else are all 3 explicitly mentioned together?

[Scuba]

Scuba says:

"I wish your above statement was true because it would make things so much easier."

Where else are all 3 explicitly mentioned together?

Notice how God sends the Angel of His presence and when we resist the Angel of His presence they are rebelling and grieving His Holy Spirit.

Isaiah 63:9-10

In all their affliction He was afflicted,

And the Angel of His Presence saved them;

In His love and in His pity He redeemed them;

And He bore them and carried them

All the days of old.

But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit;

So He turned Himself against them as an enemy,

and He fought against them.

Notice this next verse. Jesus says the Father will send the Spirit and Jesus equates the indwelling of the Spirit as Himself.

John 14:16-18

And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

To me it seems like the Spirit of God is the word made flesh.

[JoeMo]

"To me it seems like the Spirit of God is the word made flesh."

 

No argument from me on that point.

 

[Scuba]

"To me it seems like the Spirit of God is the word made flesh."

 

No argument from me on that point.

 

Sweet! 

[Scuba]

Do you believe the Father and the Son is the same person?

[Samie]

...

 

To me it seems like the Spirit of God is the word made flesh.

 

To me it seems that the Bible differentiates Jesus Who is the Word made flesh from the Spirit of God.

 

The Bible EXPLICITLY says the Spirit of God DESCENDED upon Jesus:

 

NKJ Matthew 3:16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.

Did Jesus descend upon Himself?

[Samie]

Do you believe the Father and the Son is the same person?

 

No. The Bible is very clear on this, I guess. The Father is NOT the Son, and vice versa.

[Scuba]

To me it seems that the Bible differentiates Jesus Who is the Word made flesh from the Spirit of God.

The Bible EXPLICITLY says the Spirit of God DESCENDED upon Jesus:

NKJ Matthew 3:16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.

Did Jesus descend upon Himself?

Do you believe the Spirit of God can be in all places at all times?

Do you believe that within Jesus, even as a baby, the whole Godhead dwelt?

Do you believe that even when Jesus was preaching in the temple, as a teenager, the fullness of God was in Him?

Do you believe the dove descending on Jesus, at His baptism, was a sign for Him or for those who were watching?

Do you believe that when the Bible says, "The word became flesh" it's referring to the person of God as the word or do you believe the word becoming flesh means the plan of God spoken all throughout the Old Testament of the coming of the Messiah became reality in Jesus?

If you believe Jesus is the word made flesh then who or what is the word that Jesus had to resist within Himself in order to be obedient to the word that He was?

To me it seems that the eternal essence of God consists of Spirit and word or power and wisdom. The man Jesus is the tangible manifestation of the wisdom and power of God in human form.

1 Corinthian 1:24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

The wisdom and power of God is eternal but Jesus had His beginning in Mary.

[JoeMo]

Scuba asks,

"Do you believe the Father and the Son is the same person?"

 

No; I don't.  I tend to believe that Jesus is God - made out of the same "God Stuff" that the Father is made of.  The basic difference between the Father and Son is that the Father has always existed; and that the Son was "begotten" (not created) of the Father at a point in time so far before Genisis 1:1 that it might as well be eternity - but the being that became Jesus had a "beginning" nonetheless.  I also believe that Jesus is God -  as deserving of our worship as the Father.

[Scuba]

Scuba asks,

"Do you believe the Father and the Son is the same person?"

 

No; I don't.  I tend to believe that Jesus is God - made out of the same "God Stuff" that the Father is made of.  The basic difference between the Father and Son is that the Father has always existed; and that the Son was "begotten" (not created) of the Father at a point in time so far before Genisis 1:1 that it might as well be eternity - but the being that became Jesus had a "beginning" nonetheless.  I also believe that Jesus is God -  as deserving of our worship as the Father.

Why would Jesus have to give up his anointing when he became a man only to be anointed again to empower him to do what he did?

Did Jesus have to resist his will in order to do the will of his father?

Did Jesus have to resist his will before he became human?

Are the two opposing wills, seen in Jesus, both eternal?

[JoeMo]

Boy Scuba, you ask a lot of questions! I like it, though.

 

"Why would Jesus have to give up his anointing when he became a man only to be anointed again to empower him to do what he did?" While He was here on earth as a human, He had to be completely like we are - weak and vulnerable; or satan would have called "foul".  When He returned to heaven, all authority and power was given back to Him as payment for successfully redeeming humanity.

Did Jesus have to resist his will in order to do the will of his father? Absolutely - more than we will ever have to resist!  satan knew who Jesus was; and put forth the his best efforts to take Jesus down.  How else could he have been tempted in all ways like we are unless some sins were attractive to Him?  You are not tempted by things that are revolting to you.  For example - He wanted out of the crucifixion so badly he sweated blood.

Did Jesus have to resist his will before he became human?  Not while He still had His God stuff.  If Jesus was indeed slain from the foundation of the world, It seems like He and His Father were in pernect agreement.

Are the two opposing wills, seen in Jesus, both eternal?    By definition (since He is God), His divine will is eternal; and will be fulfilled. I don't think His human will is eternal; it may be transient.  Hard to answer, since He retains His brotherhood with us through His humanity throughout eternity.

 

The above is just my current viewpoint.    It has changed over the years.  I reserve the right to be wrong or to change my opinion at any time, given sufficient evidence to do so.  That's because I'm the chameleon.

[Scuba]

I like your fine print clause at the end of your post...

 

"Why would Jesus have to give up his anointing when he became a man only to be anointed again to empower him to do what he did?" While He was here on earth as a human, He had to be completely like we are - weak and vulnerable; or satan would have called "foul".  When He returned to heaven, all authority and power was given back to Him as payment for successfully redeeming humanity.

 

Was all authority given to Him when He returned to heaven or while He was on earth?

 

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

 

Did Jesus have to resist his will in order to do the will of his father? Absolutely - more than we will ever have to resist!  satan knew who Jesus was; and put forth the his best efforts to take Jesus down.  How else could he have been tempted in all ways like we are unless some sins were attractive to Him?  You are not tempted by things that are revolting to you.  For example - He wanted out of the crucifixion so badly he sweated blood.

Did Jesus have to resist his will before he became human?  Not while He still had His God stuff.  If Jesus was indeed slain from the foundation of the world, It seems like He and His Father were in pernect agreement.

 

 

Having two different wills indicates two different people. Prior to His birth, did Jesus have His own will that He has to resist in order to obey His Father's will?

 

Are the two opposing wills, seen in Jesus, both eternal?    By definition (since He is God), His divine will is eternal; and will be fulfilled. I don't think His human will is eternal; it may be transient.  Hard to answer, since He retains His brotherhood with us through His humanity throughout eternity.

 

 

If His divine will is eternal that would make it His Father's will making Him the Father prior to His birth.

 

The above is just my current viewpoint. It has changed over the years. I reserve the right to be wrong or to change my opinion at any time, given sufficient evidence to do so. That's because I'm the chameleon.

 

[Samie]

Do you believe the Spirit of God can be in all places at all times?

Do you believe that within Jesus, even as a baby, the whole Godhead dwelt?

Do you believe that even when Jesus was preaching in the temple, as a teenager, the fullness of God was in Him?

Do you believe the dove descending on Jesus, at His baptism, was a sign for Him or for those who were watching?

Do you believe that when the Bible says, "The word became flesh" it's referring to the person of God as the word or do you believe the word becoming flesh means the plan of God spoken all throughout the Old Testament of the coming of the Messiah became reality in Jesus?

If you believe Jesus is the word made flesh then who or what is the word that Jesus had to resist within Himself in order to be obedient to the word that He was?

To me it seems that the eternal essence of God consists of Spirit and word or power and wisdom. The man Jesus is the tangible manifestation of the wisdom and power of God in human form.

1 Corinthian 1:24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

The wisdom and power of God is eternal but Jesus had His beginning in Mary.

First, you did not address my question whether Jesus descended upon Himself. Does that mean you have no explanation yet?

About your avalanche of questions about the "Godship" of Jesus Who was equal with God, here's Scriptures:

NAS Philippians 2:5-8

5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,

6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

I think the above verses directly answered your questions.

[Scuba]

First, you did not address my question whether Jesus descended upon Himself. Does that mean you have no explanation yet?

 

About your avalanche of questions about the "Godship" of Jesus Who was equal with God, here's Scriptures:

 

NAS Philippians 2:5-8  

5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 

6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 

7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 

8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

 

I think the above verses directly answered your questions.

The Spirit of God can desend on Jesus and be in Jesus at the same time and can be Jesus at the same time.

I should have the same attitude of Jesus in that I, being in the form/image of God, I should humble myself and become a servant?

[Samie]

When I asked: "Did Jesus descend upon Himself?", your reply came:

 

The Spirit of God can desend on Jesus and be in Jesus at the same time and can be Jesus at the same time.

I should have the same attitude of Jesus in that I, being in the form/image of God, I should humble myself and become a servant?

 

So, using your reasoning, you seem to be telling us that Jesus descended upon Himself.  I respect your belief.

 

But I think it would be safe for me to just simply believe what Scriptures say, that it was the Spirit of God Who descended upon Jesus.  Not that Jesus descended upon Himself.

[Scuba]

When I asked: "Did Jesus descend upon Himself?", your reply came:

So, using your reasoning, you seem to be telling us that Jesus descended upon Himself. I respect your belief.

But I think it would be safe for me to just simply believe what Scriptures say, that it was the Spirit of God Who descended upon Jesus. Not that Jesus descended upon Himself.

Let me ask you some questions. Who is the Helper? Who will abide with them forever. Who is it that they know? Who is it that is with them? Who is it that will be in them? Who is it that will not leave them as orphans? Who is it that will come to them?

John 14:16-18 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

[LifeHiscost]

Let me ask you some questions. Who is the Helper? Who will abide with them forever. Who is it that they know? Who is it that is with them? Who is it that will be in them? Who is it that will not leave them as orphans? Who is it that will come to them?

John 14:16-18 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

It's probably somewhat presumptuous for any one to think they can explain Deity when we are told we will spend the rest of eternity learning to know Him.

“Come unto me,” says Jesus, “all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and [in learning and practicing these lessons] ye shall find rest unto your souls” (Matthew 11:28, 29). If we would live a Christian life, we must constantly cooperate with God, losing self in dependence upon Jesus Christ. Every day we should work as for eternity.{TDG 255.5}

Man was made a little lower than the angels. Yet when he shall be purified and translated to the heavenly courts, he will be even more privileged than the angels.{TDG 255.6}

All that your brothers and sisters need, all that any of us need is to live a humble, Christian life, revealing in character the strength received from Jesus Christ through union with Him.—Letter 196, September 3, 1903, to a businessman.{TDG 255.7} underline mine LHC

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Scuba]

It's probably somewhat presumptuous for any one to think they can explain Deity when we are told we will spend the rest of eternity learning to know Him.

 

 

That's why it's silly to use the belief in a Trinity, Oneness, Bi-unity or anything else other than, Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God" as the standard to test if someone is a Christian or not.

[Samie]

That's why it's silly to use the belief in a Trinity, Oneness, Bi-unity or anything else other than, Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God" as the standard to test if someone is a Christian or not.

 

NKJ 2 Corinthians 10:12 For we dare not class ourselves or compare ourselves with those who commend themselves. But they, measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

 

Scriptures are clear.

 

1. The Father is NOT the Son.

 

Jesus, the Son, said: "My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28). If Jesus is also the Father, then His statement may well be: "I am greater than myself".

 

2. The Son is NOT the Spirit.

 

Scriptures say that Jesus is the child of the Holy Spirit (Matt 1:18). If Jesus is also the Spirit, then Jesus is the child of His own self.

 

3. The Father is NOT the Spirit.

 

Jesus said that He will send the Spirit from the Father (John 15:26). If the Father is the Spirit, then Jesus would have said, He will send the Father.