State of the Dead.

[RedSearch]

This is a rough draft I wrote up. this will be/is on a website, so please give me your suggestions, corrections, etc...

 

If you have any comments to say that death is not a unconscious sleep then do not comment here or make suggestions - this is not a debate.

 

[Note: I types this up in a different program and pasted it here, so please ignore any oddities. This is mostly quotes with some text.]

 

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The consciousness of the dead:

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." -Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 KJV.

"The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence." -Psalms 115:17 KJV.

"For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and hissepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.  Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool." -Acts 2:25-35 KJV [Also, see Concordant Version which agrees with KJV on the state of the dead in these verses].

"His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." -Psalms 146:4 KJV.

What happens when someone dies:

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7

"In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." Genesis 3:19 KJV.

What about the soul:

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." - Ezekiel 18:20 KJV.

"And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image. And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea." - Revelation 16:3 KJV [Also, see the Concordant Version in the book "Unveiling"which agrees with KJV on the State of the Dead in the last verse.]

Mortality of man:

"Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?" -Job 4:17 KJV.

Where is one located when one is dead:

"If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness." -Job17:13 KJV.

 

What about Sheol: (src: http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/study-guide/e/4988/t/is-the-devil-in-charge-of-hell.aspx)

Does the word "hell" as used in the Bible always refer to a place of burning or punishment?

Answer:   No, the word "hell" is used 54 times in the Bible, and in only 12 cases does it refer to "a place of burning."

The word "hell" is translated from several different words with various meanings, as indicated below:

IN THE OLD TESTAMENT
31 times from "Sheol," which means the grave."

IN THE NEW TESTAMENT
10 times from "Hades," which means "the grave."
12 times from "Gehenna," which means "the place of burning."
 1 time from "Tartarus," which means "a place of darkness."
54 TIMES TOTAL

 

Note: The Greek word "Gehenna" (mentioned above) is a transliteration of the Hebrew "Ge-Hinnom," which means the "Valley of Hinnom." This valley, which lies immediately south and west of Jerusalem, was a place where dead animals, garbage, and other refuse were dumped. Fire burned constantly, as it does at modern sanitation dump sites. The Bible uses "Gehenna" or the "Valley of Hinnom" as a symbol of the fire that will destroy the lost at the end of time. The fire of Gehenna was not unending. Otherwise it would be still burning southwest of Jerusalem today. Neither will the fire of hell be unending.

(src: http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/study-guide/e/4988/t/is-the-devil-in-charge-of-hell.aspx)

First lie to man:

"And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:" -Genesis 3:2-4 KJV

Conclusion:

Death is an unconscious sleep and it is the state of both saved and lost people which are not currently living.

Any doctrine which states that death is of another form, or there is a separate waiting place for souls opens the way for spiritualism.

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Now the spirit is saying explicitly, that in subsequent eras some will be withdrawing from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and the teachings of demons,
in the hypocrisy of false expressions, their own conscience having been cauterized; "-1 Timothy 4:1-2 CLNT [Also, see the KJV which agrees with CLNT on the Faith at the end times.]

Further Reading:

http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/study-guide/e/4988/t/is-the-devil-in-charge-of-hell.aspx

http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/book/e/30/t/hellfire-a-twisted-truth-untangled.aspx

[Stewart (SDA)]

Good !

[Kevin H]

Good but may I suggest using Ecc 9:5 as a summery statement. I know that in recent decades we turn there first because on a superficial reading it appears to be the clearest text. However careful study does not find it to be the text we think it is. I once read a number of Mrs. White quotes of this verse and none of the quotes I read used it as a proof text to build her argument. In all the passages I read she only used it as a summery of what she would study (or at least infer) that the Bible says and build her case from the other texts. I think that her method was wise.

[TrevorL]

Greetings RedSearch,

 

If you have any comments to say that death is not a unconscious sleep then do not comment here or make suggestions - this is not a debate.

 

I was interested in your article and agree with all of this. I believe that man is mortal and returns to the dust at death and his thinking ceases. One of my favourite verses:
Daniel 12:2 (KJV): And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Also when Lazarus died, Jesus described him as sleeping, but when the disciples commented, Jesus then emphatically stated that Lazarus was dead.
John 11:11-14 (KJV): 11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Could I ask a question, and I am not wanting to debate. I have heard the expression “Soul Sleep”. Is this an expression used in the SDA environment? I find the term ambiguous, as it gives the impression that the body and soul are two different entities, and that the body returns to the dust, but the soul is asleep. I believe that it is the whole of the man that is asleep, and that the expression “soul sleep” is best avoided.

What I am trying to say is that death is a return to the dust and thus a cessation of being, and the expression “sleep” or “unconscious sleep” is not a reality, but a Scriptural figure to indicate that God will raise the dead from the dust of the earth.
Isaiah 26:19 (KJV): Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

[LifeHiscost]

Greetings RedSearch,

 

What I am trying to say is that death is a return to the dust and thus a cessation of being, and the expression “sleep” or “unconscious sleep” is not a reality, but a Scriptural figure to indicate that God will raise the dead from the dust of the earth.

Isaiah 26:19 (KJV): Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Kind regards

Trevor

 

I happen to agree with you that to speak of soul sleep leaves one to infer there is another entity than man being(has) a soul.

 

… 7Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being....Gen 2

 

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul....Gen 2

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Gregory Matthews]

From Trevor in post # 4:

 

 I have heard the expression “Soul Sleep”. Is this an expression used in the SDA environment? I find the term ambiguous, as it gives the impression that the body and soul are two different entities, and that the body returns to the dust, but the soul is asleep. I believe that it is the whole of the man that is asleep, and that the expression “soul sleep” is best avoided.

 

I agree that the term "soul sleep" gives the impression that there is a body and a soul which are separate.  This is a minority position that has been held by SDA members.  But, the majority clearly do not hold to that position.

 

 

[Kevin H]

I have only heard the term "Soul Sleep" used by non-Adventists who believe that the soul goes to heaven or hell at death trying to describe the unconsciousness that we teach. It is not a term that we use.

[Kevin H]

A good study would be to look up all the occurrences of the Hebrew word "Sheol"

[Gregory Matthews]

Kevin said, in post # 7:

 

 

I have only heard the term "Soul Sleep" used by non-Adventists who believe that the soul goes to heaven or hell at death trying to describe the unconsciousness that we teach. It is not a term that we use.

 

 

I can understand why Kevin would never have heard that term used by SDAs.  It is clearly a minority position and in its historic use, it has been mainly used by a group of SDAs from Europe.  I was a student at Andrews Seminary at the time that a General Conference was held.  A delegate to the GC Session, a high elected official in an European  country who had given his life (He is now dead.) for the church,  and who played a significant role in the development of the SDA Church in his native country spoke to us.    (By the way, his biography has been published in English.) spoke to us Seminary students as to his belief that the soul was independent of the body and upon death went into an unconscious state which was only awakened at the resurrection.

 

That was clearly a minority view.  The majority of SDAs would not hold to that position.  However, the Baptismal Vows do not (and did not) require any specific belief on this pint.  Rather, they only require the belief in the unconscious state upon death with a consequent belief in the resurrection.  Our friend, a denominational leader from Europe was in harmony with that basic belief.  It is clear that God used that person in a major way in the development of the SDA denomination in that country.

 

The lesson here that we all need to learn is:  God does not require the same standard of perfected belief, that we humans may want to force on others, in order to use that person in doing the work of God.  God is perfect.  Humans are not.  Our standard should always be to rise to the call of God as given us in the Bible.  We should not expect 100% doctrinal perfection in any human being.

 

 

 

 

[Stewart (SDA)]

RedSearch,

The Scriptures you cite here, show wonderfully well the reality of the “state of the dead”.

One thing I would mention though, is that this truth does not preclude our framing a lesson for those that believe in the “immortality of the soul”, in which a group of dead people hold a conversation. It is clear, I suggest, that Jesus did precisely that, and He felt no need to add anything like, “and you know, of course, that the dead know nothing and they cannot really communicate with anyone.”

The people to whom Jesus delivered the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus, believed that the scenario He was portraying was entirely plausible.

#2. "Land of the Enemy".

In the Book of Matthew the killing of the infants in Bethlehem is shown to be the fulfilment of a prophecy in Jeremiah. Only part of the prophecy is referred to (in Matthew 2), but in the original prophecy the mothers are offered comfort. (Even though, at the time they refuse it.) They are assured that their little ones will “come again from the land of the enemy”. This, of course, refers to the resurrection. The children would return “from the land of the enemy”, i.e. they would return from the grave. The fact that the grave is described [in this Scripture,] as the land of the enemy, is a significant lesson, in my view. It shows that the land of the enemy is the place where the Lord's martyrs go. And death is always an enemy; it is the last enemy to be overcome and destroyed.

Jer 31:15-16

Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.

Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.”

[Kevin H]

Gregory; holding these two views, the majority and the minority view on the state of the dead makes a lot of sense as we are studying the Bible and trying to understand how the Bible teaches about Sheol. While we are on the right track we may or may not yet be at the destination. Thank you for sharing.

[Gregory Matthews]

As you might expect, I hold what I have called the majority view.  I, along with the rest of the Seminary students were dumbfounded by what he was telling us.  He began speaking to us in English.  With the intensity of the questions, he began answering in his native language with a seminary professor translating.  I have not presented his view from the standpoint of suggesting that it is correct.

 

Rather the lesion that I learned from this is that God does not demand doctrinal purity in order to use a person to accomplish the will of God.  We are all human and imperfect in all aspects of our lives, to include our doctrinal understanding.  All to often we relate to others in a manner that suggests that they must conform to our doctrinal understanding in order to be right with God.   

 

There are some issues that we must simply leave to God to resolve.   This is one of several reasons why I often do not respond to posts made here---although this may surprise some.      

 

Speaking frankly, I believe that this is a lesson that we may need to learn as we approach the General Conference Session in July.

[Kevin H]

There are many things which we think we have to choose between A and B of which the Seventh-day Adventists church tends to pick the best of those two. But there may be options c and d that we have not even thought of yet.

[Gail]

I had a customer this week who stated a study Bible commentary that Sheol was a real place, a holding place, for the dead for both the good and the wicked. He claimed that this place is where Jesus went before He ascended.

I pointed him to Fudge's book and told him this is what one evangelical discovered when he studied the position. I also explained that the idea of consciousness in death is not found in the Old Testament but is an idea that although was widespread by the time of Jesus came into Hebrew society via Hellenistic influence between the testaments.

I pray for this customer... He is a very likable guy and he does help me know what exactly is out there in regard to beliefs about the state of the dead.

[Robert]

The converted Apostle Paul said, "I know that in me, that is in my flesh, dwells nothing good".  If nothing good resides in our humanity then nothing transcends death. If something does "skip" the resurrection and on its own steam slips into heaven, then that component of our humanity is naturally holy.  So my question to folks who believe in the immortality of the soul is what part of you doesn't need the righteousness of Christ?

[Robert]

The converted Apostle Paul said, "I know that in me, that is in my flesh, dwells nothing good".  If nothing good resides in our humanity then nothing transcends death. If something does "skip" the resurrection and on its own steam slips into heaven, then that component of our humanity is naturally holy.  So my question to folks who believe in the immortality of the soul is what part of you doesn't need the righteousness of Christ?

 

The teaching of the Immortality of the Soul attacks the doctrine of justification by faith.  It's a subtle form of salvation by works.  If something lives on after death then that component of my humanity is holy and righteousness and does not need the righteousness of Christ.  

 

Those who teach this heresy (i.e., the Immortality of the Soul)  teach that man's spirit (or soul) returns to God at the death of the body and therefore the soul or spirit is naturally holy, while the body sinful.  At the 2nd coming the spirit or soul is reunited with a glorified body.  This heresy is salvation by works.  It glories not in Christ Jesus, but the goodness of man's soul or spirit.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again RedSearch,

Acts 2:25-35 KJV [Also, see Concordant Version which agrees with KJV on the state of the dead in these verses].

 

Revelation 16:3 KJV [Also, see the Concordant Version in the book "Unveiling"which agrees with KJV on the State of the Dead in the last verse.]

 

1 Timothy 4:1-2 CLNT [Also, see the KJV which agrees with CLNT on the Faith at the end times.]

I am interested in your use and reference to the Concordant Version. Is this widely used in the SDA environment and is it considered a reliable authority? I think I have heard mention of this once before, but I had to look at wiki to find some idea of what it is. Is the concept of translating a Hebrew or Greek word with only one English word viable, as words in different languages can have a different range of meaning, and sometimes two English words may be necessary depending on context. I doubt whether many outside of the SDA environment have heard of this translation. I am a hoarder / collector of Bible resources and have many different translations, but the Concordant Version has eluded my search through second hand book sales up until now. Is your web page meant for the general public or only for SDA consumption?

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[Gregory Matthews]

I am interested in your use and reference to the Concordant Version. Is this widely used in the SDA environment and is it considered a reliable authority?

 

No.  It is not widely used by SDAs.  No, it is not considered to be a reliable authority and I have commented on this previously.

 

 

 

Is the concept of translating a Hebrew or Greek word with only one English word viable, as words in different languages can have a different range of meaning, and sometimes two English words may be necessary depending on context.

 

Exactly.  This is a major problem with the Concordant Version.  A second major issue is that translations should be done with the uses of a lexicon, not a concordance.  A  concordance is not a great authority as to the meaning of a word.  A concordance only tells us how that word has been translated.

 

 

 

I doubt whether many outside of the SDA environment have heard of this translation. I am a hoarder / collector of Bible resources and have many different translations, but the Concordant Version has eluded my search through second hand book sales up until now.

 

I doubt that very many SDAs have ever heard of the Concordant Version.  I have never seen it cited in any SDA publication.

[Sojourner]

Its interesting to note that the Roman Catholic Church suggest a third place where people go post death, its called purgatory, this is from one of their apologetics sites,

"What if purgatory really doesn’t exist?

Ponder the following example. Imagine a Christian man, justified by the Lord, loses his temper and yells at his next door neighbors for letting their dog dig a hole in his yard. We can see that the man treated his neighbors rudely, albeit the neighbor’s behavior was also reprehensible. His actions would be considered a light sin (called venial sinsby the Catholic Church). It’s not of the same moral weight as theft or murder, but it’s still a sin.

After shouting at the neighbors, with all the anger and stress in his body the man walks into his house, has a heart attack, and dies having just committed a small sin in the final moments of his life. Remember, this man is Christian and justified by the Lord, yet has committed a sin. Does he go to heaven or does he go to hell? Are all sins created equal? No, all sins are not equal and even justified men of the Lord can make mistakes and sin.

If purgatory didn’t exist, the man would go to hell for his small sin. God’s mercy is so great and our God is a just God that it seems unfathomable that he would condemn a justified man to hell for a small, yet unrepented sin. The man’s soul is dirty. His actions have defiled his soul, but not the point where he has cut himself off from God. Onlymortal sins cut off a person from God’s grace. So, the man, having been justified by the Lord, is destined for heaven, yet his soul is defiled by his sin (Matthew 12:36, 15:18). His soul is in need of cleansing because nothing defiled can enter heaven. This is the purpose of purgatory. Out of mercy and love God sends the man through purgatory on his way to heaven so that his soul can be purified to be able to join God in heaven".

http://www.aboutcatholics.com/beliefs/where-is-purgatory-in-the-bible/

[8thdaypriest]

In my town of about 22K, the term "soul sleep" is mostly used by Baptists to describe the teachings of those who do NOT teach a present and ongoing "Hell". 

 

In the study at my website, I go thru every instance of the word sheol.  I show how it was translated in the Septuagint as "Hades", which came into our English Bibles as "Hell". 

 

I like to explain the state of the dead using the analogy of a computer.  Our brains are wonderfully engineered bio-computers.  But - like a computer - they turn "OFF" at death.  God has the memory stick with all the memories of the individual.  At the resurrection, HE will give us brand new computers, and then upload the memories - and we will have mind and memory intact. 

 

At the tower of Babel, the LORD simply uploaded a different language program for different groups.  And at Pentecost, HE uploaded a universal translator, so that each one "heard" Peter speak in his own language.  Very much like what we do with our computers.  At the second coming, I'm sure that HE will upload a new heavenly language program, so that we can all understand each other. 

 

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Great great grandma paid 2¢ to the priest every week to get great great grandpa out of purgatory.  When she died in 1902, his big toe was still there. We've tried and tried to get that toe out of purgatory - we've sent an explanatory letter along with a check to the archdiocese, but they sent back the check with no explanation.

 

Alas, great great grandpa's big toe is still in purgatory..

[RedSearch]

Your responses are noted. Thanks for reading and responding. At this time I will not comment with disagreements or agreements since this thread was not started as a debate.