What's more imprtant to God - Character or Power?

[JoeMo]

I am currently reading a book called "When Heaven Invades Earth" by Bill Johnson - a well-known charismatic author and pastor. He presented an interesting question (hence this thread).  In it, He explained how so many Christians think that they must 'get right" with Jesus prior to ministering to others. He then quotes the Great Commission:

"Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Nothing in these verses addresses character perfection as a prerequisite to receiving and practicing spiritual gifts.  My reading of the New Testament shows that Jesus sent out the 12 (and later the 72) to heal the sick, cleanse lepers, give sight to the blind and hearing to the deaf way before their characters were perfected.

When we wait to obey the last command Jesus ever gave ("go out and make disciples") because we are "unworthy", are we not indeed making ourselves more unworthy by further disobeying God by putting our light under a basket?  Could it be by going out and doing the work of Jesus and the apostles we facilitate the character perfection and spiritual power that we desperately need as an end-time people?  Could it be that God will perfect our character as we go out and do what Jesus commanded His disciples to do - preach the word and heal the people of all their infirmities?

[pnattmbtc]

Character is more important to God than power.  This is clearly the case, becuase if power were the issue, the Great Controversy would have been over before it started.  No one has questioned God's power, just His character.

In regards to your post, it would surely be a great error to wait for anything, either power or character, before attempting to fulfill the great commission.

[JoeMo]

Hey pnattmbtc (what does that mean?)

I appreciated your response; however, I was not referring to God's power exercised on His own behalf; I was referring to the power channelled through the believer to perform the same miracles as Jesus - like miraculous healing,and deliverance.  The apostles were healing and delivering people from the get-go.  Do we need powerful miracles to back up our words any less than the apostles did?  Is the Holy Spirit power that came with the first Pentecost any less potent now than it was in apostolic time.  Back then, the power to heal and deliver was even channelled through Peter's shadow and Paul's hankies!  Do we see fewer miracles because "we don't need them since we have the Bible", or because we just don't seek the power for miracles any more?

[pnattmbtc]

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

[pnattmbtc]

I think we need the types of miracles you are speaking of less because of circumstances.  It's an interesting questions.  Members of the charismatic movement use an argument along the lines that we need these things just as much now as before.

[joeb]

Is the point of the plan of salvation God showing His power or God fighting sin and thus character change being greatly important?  I would say this though, character change in someone who lives for evil into someone who lives for righteousness is the greatest display of God's power that exists.

[JoeMo]

Hi joeb,

Good question.  I'd say the answer is "yes" to both choices.  Jesus came to bring us the Kingdom of God AND to destroy the works of the devil.  The Kingdom of God involves the power of God (i.e., miracles).  There is no sickness or demonic harassment in heaven; therefore, if we claim "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"; then there should be none where we claim God's dominion.  Jesus left entire towns free of sickness.  The apostles did the same.  Why don't (or can't) we?  Is it a lack of faith, or is God not willing to work through us as He did through the apostles, or "we don't need miracles, cuz we have the Bible"?

Destroying the works of the devil involves radical obedience to both the Word and the biddings of the Holy Spirit.  If we hear that still small voice say "do this", our immediate response should be action; not delay and doubt.

One might say "I've prayed over people for healing; and most of the time my prayers aren't answered."  Nonetheless, you gotta admit that the more people we pray for, the more that DO get healed.

Could you imagine the impact a Bible study would have if we believed God for power to back up our words - like healing a disease for a family member who was suffering?  IMO, if God actually healed someone through us, that would be worth 1,000 Bible studies.  If it happened in Jesus' and the apostles' times, why not now, especially in light of Joel's prophecy that God would pour out His Spirit without measure in the last days?

[Gerr]

Character IS power.

[JoeMo]

Character IS power.

​While character enhances power, it is not the same thing.  Many sincere well-meaning Christians with impeccable characters are "afraid" to move in the gifts of the Spirit (prophecy, healing, deliverance, etc.) because they are afraid of being deceived, or have been taught that miracles are manifestations in the past or distant future - not for today. Or they do not feel "worthy".  I have heard sermons in SDA churches admonishing those who step out in faith-based healing or deliverance ministries to stop because satan can do counterfeit miracles through them.  There are also those through whom God performed mighty works who, because of character flaws, crashed and burned at times in their life.  Look at Saul, David, and Solomon, for instance.

The apostles were sent out to heal way before their characters were changed.  Judas himself probably had several healings and deliverances under his belt before He betrayed Jesus.

Were people like Smith Wigglesworth, John G. Lake, Aimee Semple McPherson,and Oral Roberts charlatans, or sincere believers who - in spite of character flaws - stepped out in faith to do the works of the Father and destroy the works of satan?

Edited June 6, 2015 by JoeMo

[joeb]

​While character enhances power, it is not the same thing.  Many sincere well-meaning Christians with impeccable characters are "afraid" to move in the gifts of the Spirit (prophecy, healing, deliverance, etc.) because they are afraid of being deceived, or have been taught that miracles are manifestations in the past or distant future - not for today. Or they do not feel "worthy".  I have heard sermons in SDA churches admonishing those who step out in faith-based healing or deliverance ministries to stop because satan can do counterfeit miracles through them.  There are also those through whom God performed mighty works who, because of character flaws, crashed and burned at times in their life.  Look at Saul, David, and Solomon, for instance.

The apostles were sent out to heal way before their characters were changed.  Judas himself probably had several healings and deliverances under his belt before He betrayed Jesus.

Were people like Smith Wigglesworth, John G. Lake, Aimee Semple McPherson,and Oral Roberts charlatans, or sincere believers who - in spite of character flaws - stepped out in faith to do the works of the Father and destroy the works of satan?

​I don't this Gerry meant his comment in the way you took it.  It's possible, but I don't think so. 

For me character is power for character when it is created through the power and word of God is one way God has given us to defeat the power of sin.  That kind of character is a defense against sin.  In that way character is power.

[pnattmbtc]

Hi joeb,

Good question.  I'd say the answer is "yes" to both choices.  Jesus came to bring us the Kingdom of God AND to destroy the works of the devil.  The Kingdom of God involves the power of God (i.e., miracles).  There is no sickness or demonic harassment in heaven; therefore, if we claim "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"; then there should be none where we claim God's dominion.  Jesus left entire towns free of sickness.  The apostles did the same.  Why don't (or can't) we?  Is it a lack of faith, or is God not willing to work through us as He did through the apostles, or "we don't need miracles, cuz we have the Bible"?

Destroying the works of the devil involves radical obedience to both the Word and the biddings of the Holy Spirit.  If we hear that still small voice say "do this", our immediate response should be action; not delay and doubt.

One might say "I've prayed over people for healing; and most of the time my prayers aren't answered."  Nonetheless, you gotta admit that the more people we pray for, the more that DO get healed.

Could you imagine the impact a Bible study would have if we believed God for power to back up our words - like healing a disease for a family member who was suffering?  IMO, if God actually healed someone through us, that would be worth 1,000 Bible studies.  If it happened in Jesus' and the apostles' times, why not now, especially in light of Joel's prophecy that God would pour out His Spirit without measure in the last days?

​I liked this post.  I agree with the essence of what this is saying, especially about bringing the Kingdom of God and destroying the works of the devil.  Ps. 110:1 is the text most quoted in the New Testament, yet the idea that the Gospel has to do with defeating the powers of darkness is largely ignored; we are just concerned with what the Gospel means in terms of our own salvation, or ticket to heaven.

Regarding Joel's prophecy, I think that will entail a return to the miracles of apostolic times, but I have doubts we are there yet, partly because of the very issues being brought out here in terms of what the Gospel is.  That is, if God were to give an outpouring of His Spirit in the way Joel is prophesying, that could be taken as God's confirming the message which is attending the miracles.  As long as the message is flawed, that could cause more problems than it would solve.  Also, we know Satan is able to counterfeit miracles.  So the miracles cannot be in first place (which I know is not what you're saying).

God has been working throughout the centuries healing others, and will continue to do so, but I think, in regards to the Joel prophecies, we'll need to await the message God wants to give us (of which the 1888 message was a foretaste).  The miracles cannot precede the message.

[GayatfootofCross]

 There are maybe few things that will soften my heart and jazz my Spirit like thinking what Kind of God we have!

!!!

I see power in GOD becoming a frail baby in a barn.

I see power in humility in His Life.

I see power in servitude.

I see power in washing Judas feet.

John13: ³ Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God.⁴ so he got up from the meal, took off his outer clothing, and wrapped a towel around his waist. ⁵ After that, he poured water into a basin and began to wash his disciples’ feet, drying them with the towel that was wrapped around him.

I see Power in dying for me.

I do not have the words to flesh out my puny thoughts on just these few things alone.

His Glory/Power/Character is revealed on the CROSS

It will never exhaust our eternal perfect minds.

The Angels are still reeling!

.

Philippians 2:

⁵ In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

⁶ Who, being in very nature^[a] God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
⁷ rather, he made himself nothing
    by taking the very nature^[b] of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.
⁸ And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    by becoming obedient to death—
        even death on a cross!

 

Edited June 7, 2015 by GayatfootofCross

[Gail]

Should the onus be on us to do the healing? We have connection with the creator of the universe. 

[JoeMo]

Should the onus be on us to do the healing? We have connection with the creator of the universe. 

​The onus is NOT on us to do the healing; the onus on us is to believe that God wants to confirm His message with works of supernatural power; and that He wants to use us a channels for His works.

It is easy to believe that what is taken in by our five senses is "reality"; but God's Word tells us that this physical world is temporary; and the invisible spiritual world is the true, eternal reality.  What a privilege and blessing it would be to the world if we were the channels through which God could give others a glimpse of the eternal, spiritual, and miraculous reality!

I'm not saying that everyone anyone prays for will be healed if we just "believe".  I am saying that the more people we pray for, the more that would be healed; and the more we look for what God is doing (rather than what He's not doing), the more aware we will become of His moving; and the more opportunities we will have to participate with God in the supernatural realm.  In doing so the more people will see confirmation of His message.

Working in the gifts of the Spirit is not for our own edification, it is our witness to the world.  What good is it to the world if people stop pursuing the gifts of the Spirit when the fall down at the touch of a revivalist or when they speak in tongues?  Those things may be edifying to self; but they are of no use in our witness to the world.  Being God's vehicle for healing and deliverance as confirmation of His message to the world - now THAT'S moving in the gifts of the Spirit!

Is it possible that the blessings promised in Joel will become available to us when our faith in them shows that we're finally ready to receive and boldly act on them?

[pnattmbtc]

JoeMo:It is easy to believe that what is taken in by our five senses is "reality"; but God's Word tells us that this physical world is temporary; and the invisible spiritual world is the true, eternal reality. 

I've thought about this a lot.  There's a quote from the Spirit of Prophecy which says something to the effect that when Christ mused, "to what should I compare the kingdom of God?", He could think of anything in this world (she says in the "civil world" I think) to use, which strikes me as a bit amusing, and a testiment to your comment.  That is, it seems that Jesus was so steeped in the other world, the real one, but the one which seems "vaprous" (to just through something out there that I hope captures the idea) to us that when He came back to "reality" (the temporary world that will pass away), He really had to think!

It also makes me think of Hebrews 11, where is speaks of God not being ashamed of the pilgrims who seeked for another world, and a city not made with hands.

[joeb]

​I liked this post.  I agree with the essence of what this is saying, especially about bringing the Kingdom of God and destroying the works of the devil.  Ps. 110:1 is the text most quoted in the New Testament, yet the idea that the Gospel has to do with defeating the powers of darkness is largely ignored; we are just concerned with what the Gospel means in terms of our own salvation, or ticket to heaven.

Regarding Joel's prophecy, I think that will entail a return to the miracles of apostolic times, but I have doubts we are there yet, partly because of the very issues being brought out here in terms of what the Gospel is.  That is, if God were to give an outpouring of His Spirit in the way Joel is prophesying, that could be taken as God's confirming the message which is attending the miracles.  As long as the message is flawed, that could cause more problems than it would solve.  Also, we know Satan is able to counterfeit miracles.  So the miracles cannot be in first place (which I know is not what you're saying).

God has been working throughout the centuries healing others, and will continue to do so, but I think, in regards to the Joel prophecies, we'll need to await the message God wants to give us (of which the 1888 message was a foretaste).  The miracles cannot precede the message.

​Can God pour out His Spirit on people He cannot trust?  I don't think so.  When we see the outpouring of the Spirit upon the disciples we see it poured out upon a group that had gone through a fiery trial and still retained their faith and trust in God.  In Peter, especially, we see the outworking of the trial in how much he changed.  He went from insisting he could go through anything, on his own when warned by Christ about his weakness, and still follow Christ, to the point where Christ could stick the "verbal needle" into him on the shore of Galilee and only humbly say, You know what is in me.  That trial burned the self-sufficiency out of him.  The Bible doesn't document what happened with the rest of the disciples, but it must have been the same thing for they all agreed with Peter before the crucifixion, and then had the same attitude Peter did afterwards.  They all had the self-sufficiency burned out of them.  That was why God could trust them with the power of the Holy Spirit. 

Thus it will be with us.  God cannot trust us until we do not trust us.   Self-sufficiency must be gone before we will be given the full outpouring of the Holy Spirit.  If self-sufficiency is not gone can you imagine our response to that kind of power?  We would take all the glory to ourselves.  I have no doubt of that at all because of what I see in myself, and what experience has taught me is in others too.

[JoeMo]

They all had the self-sufficiency burned out of them.  That was why God could trust them with the power of the Holy Spirit.

Thus it will be with us.  God cannot trust us until we do not trust us.   Self-sufficiency must be gone before we will be given the full outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

Must self-sufficiency be gone prior to the gift of the Spirit, or does self-sufficiency disappear once we receive the Spirit?​

[pnattmbtc]

 God cannot trust us until we do not trust us.

Nice!  I agree with what you're saying.  I think both of what you said and I said needs to happen, and that the message is what will drive things.  For example, Ellen White said that the message that Jones and Waggoner brought "laid the glory of man in the dust."

[JoeMo]

Without commentary, here are some scriptures which indicate to me that our words are to be accompanied by signs and wonders as a confirmation of the truth of our words.  I know that some will point out other scriptures that talk about false messiahs and prophets performing signs and wonders.  God even said that these would deceive the saints IF IT WAS POSSIBLE (Matt. 24:24 and Mark 13:22) ...  Maybe it's not possible to deceive the saints.

Mark 16:18-20: "He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;  they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.

Acts 2:43: Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles.

Acts 6:8: Now Stephen, a man full of God’s grace and power, performed great wonders and signs among the people.

Acts 8:6: When the crowds heard Philip and saw the signs he performed, they all paid close attention to what he said.

Acts: 14:3: So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to perform signs and wonders.

Acts 15:12: The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them.

John 10:37-38: Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

John 14:12: Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

 

I could go on and on, but I don't want to make this post too long.  Maybe more later, if you're interested.

Edited June 10, 2015 by JoeMo

[Gail]

I guess that might depend if you believe that we are living in the last days, for it is then that it is the lamb-like beast does wonders in order to deceive.

My vote goes to God's character being reflected in His people.

[JoeMo]

I guess that might depend if you believe that we are living in the last days, for it is then that it is the lamb-like beast does wonders in order to deceive.

My vote goes to God's character being reflected in His people.

​But who is the lamblike beast deceiving?  I don't think it's the "elect".  Like I stated before, Matt. 24:24 and Mark 13:22 say that these works would deceive the very elect IF POSSIBLE.  I infer from those verses that those who adhere to the Truth will not be deceived.  The world will be deceived; but then they already are deceived.

[joeb]

Must self-sufficiency be gone prior to the gift of the Spirit, or does self-sufficiency disappear once we receive the Spirit?​

​

There are two rains, early and latter.  The first, if we allow it, accomplishes the removal of self.  The latter is accompanied by signs and wonders. 

[JoeMo]

​

There are two rains, early and latter.  The first, if we allow it, accomplishes the removal of self.  The latter is accompanied by signs and wonders.

​I kinda like that thought.  However, the removal of self (which to me is the equivalent of sanctification) is usually the work of a lifetime; as is perfecting your gifts of the Spirit. But sometimes, God completely delivers a person from their addictions and besetting sins in an instant; and/or bestows a powerful full-blown set of spiritual gifts on people in an instant (like happened at Pentecost).   So I would say both "rains" produce fruit at the same time; and for some, the second rain may come before the first.  I hesitate to define how God works; cuz every time I put Him in a box like that, He jumps out and does something different.  Sometimes, how God leads us to a glorious destiny doesn't look to glorious from a worldly view.  Just ask David and Joseph son of Jacob.

[pnattmbtc]

The Spirit of Prophecy references the 1888 message as the beginning of the latter rain, which was understood at a "teaching of righteousness according to righteousness".  There were a number of sessions at the 1893 General Conference Session talking about this (sermons by A. T. Jones).

Here's a paper that talks about the latter rain and the Gospel: http://www.gospelstudygroup.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/JFLatterRainMessageChristHisRighteousness.pdf

[joeb]

​I kinda like that thought.  However, the removal of self (which to me is the equivalent of sanctification) is usually the work of a lifetime; as is perfecting your gifts of the Spirit. But sometimes, God completely delivers a person from their addictions and besetting sins in an instant; and/or bestows a powerful full-blown set of spiritual gifts on people in an instant (like happened at Pentecost).   So I would say both "rains" produce fruit at the same time; and for some, the second rain may come before the first.  I hesitate to define how God works; cuz every time I put Him in a box like that, He jumps out and does something different.  Sometimes, how God leads us to a glorious destiny doesn't look to glorious from a worldly view.  Just ask David and Joseph son of Jacob.

​Take a look at what happened with the disciples when Christ was crucified.  They gave up on trusting in self because of that weekend.  Did they still have things that needed to be removed from their lives?  Yes.  Their subsequent history shows this to be true.  No longer trusting in self, in our own ideas, in our own power, etc... means that God can work through us, but it doesn't mean that every manifestation of sin has already been removed.