How did God send Jesus into the world?

[teresaq]

 The bible states that God sent Jesus into the world.
The question is, how did God send Jesus into the world?

By commanding Him to come?

We know that Jesus became incarnate. Somehow Jesus was shrunk to either a cell or sperm, by a "painful process" according to EGW, which impregnated Mary.

Does God "sending" Jesus have something to do with that process?

[Aliensanctuary]

Scripture does state that Jesus was YHVH's only human-born son. Jesus was, in effect, the voice of his Father on Earth, sent here to teach misguided humans more about his Kingdom. When Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I AM", it was his Father speaking. As I see it, Jesus did not exist before being born a human. Jesus was created to replace Adam as ruler of this world.

Because Spirit was the force used to create life, it was a simple matter for YHVH to use Spirit to generate a fertilized egg cell, genetically related to King David, within the body of Mary.

As a child he spent many hours being taught by Messengers about the Kingdom in his alone time away from the crowds. Developing his telepathic connection with his Father enabled him to speak his Father's words faithfully to the people.

 

[Samie]

As I see it, Jesus did not exist before being born a human.

​Can you please explain how Jesus, while still not in existence, shared His Father's glory before the world was?

ESV John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

[phkrause]

Scripture does state that Jesus was YHVH's only human-born son. Jesus was, in effect, the voice of his Father on Earth, sent here to teach misguided humans more about his Kingdom. When Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I AM", it was his Father speaking. As I see it, Jesus did not exist before being born a human. Jesus was created to replace Adam as ruler of this world.

Because Spirit was the force used to create life, it was a simple matter for YHVH to use Spirit to generate a fertilized egg cell, genetically related to King David, within the body of Mary.

As a child he spent many hours being taught by Messengers about the Kingdom in his alone time away from the crowds. Developing his telepathic connection with his Father enabled him to speak his Father's words faithfully to the people.

 

​Don't agree with any of that!!!!!!!!

[Aliensanctuary]

Is someone saying that Jesus was a non-human entity and later became human when conceived and born of a woman? Did his non-human form permanently cease to exist once he became human? As a human, did Christ retain any of his non-humanness connecting him to his previous life? Were most, all, or none of his non-human memories lost when he became human?

ESV John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Maybe there's an element of time travel in this and other related statements, e.g., "lamb slain before the world began" and "first-born from the dead". Maybe these statements are referencing another world and time period besides present-day Earth.

[Samie]

KJV Colossians 1:15-17   15 [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:  16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:  17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

[Aliensanctuary]

Perhaps Jesus was an avatar of YHVH.

As I see it, Jesus did not exist before being born a human.

Just another idea. Maybe he was another Messenger, all of whom were unborn sons of YHVH.

[Stewart (SDA)]

Teresaq(SDA),

What a deep subject this is!  I suggest that the "painful process" of the Incarnation was not so much a physical "pain".

"Said the angel, "Think ye that the Father yielded up His dearly beloved Son without a struggle? No, no." It was even a struggle with the God of heaven, whether to let guilty man perish, or to give His darling Son to die for them." (Early Writings p.127)

Yes, even though we must think in terms of the Father "sending" His Son, the actual 'suggestion' or 'proposal' [for want of a better term,] came from the Son :

"Three times He was shut in by the glorious light about the Father... He then made known to the angelic choir that a way of escape had been made for lost man; that He had been pleading with the Father, and had obtained permission to give His life as a ransom for the race..." (ibid. p.126)

The Son pleads that He might go, and then it is that the Father "sends" Him!

But I think we have so little comprehension of what it really cost Them!

It was not only a horrendous struggle of 6 hours on the Cross; it was not only 33 years of poverty and trials. The plan of salvation cost Them something that they will miss forever. I believe They were willing to sacrifice something in Their relationship that would mean an eternal loss for Them both.

It was "He [the Son of God that] proposed to take upon Himself the guilt and shame of sin -- sin so offensive in the sight of God that it would necessitate separation from His Father..." (That I May Know Him p.18)

[pnattmbtc]

It was not only a horrendous struggle of 6 hours on the Cross; it was not only 33 years of poverty and trials. The plan of salvation cost Them something that they will miss forever. I believe They were willing to sacrifice something in Their relationship that would mean an eternal loss for Them both.

What they were willing to sacrifice was not simply something in their relationship, but they risked losing the relationship itself.  "God sent His Son at the risk of failure and eternal loss" (something like DA 29).  The fact that the life of Christ was risked was what made the decision difficult. 

[Stewart (SDA)]

What they were willing to sacrifice was not simply something in their relationship, but they risked losing the relationship itself.  "God sent His Son at the risk of failure and eternal loss" (something like DA 29).  The fact that the life of Christ was risked was what made the decision difficult. 

​Pnattmbtc,

I agree -- they risked losing the relationship itself. But I am suggesting that their sacrifice involved a real, eternal, cost... something beyond "risk"... something was given up [for our sake] that could never be recovered.

Yes, I believe they literally gave up something... not just temporarily, not just potentially, but eternally.

[JimTN]

 

We know that Jesus became incarnate. Somehow Jesus was shrunk to either a cell or sperm, by a "painful process" according to EGW, which impregnated Mary...

​Do you have the SOP reference where it says the incarnation was a "painful process"?  I've tried doing a search on the EGW Estate website, and it didn't come up -- I recall either seeing it or hearing about it many years ago, but now I'd like to see where it is printed.

[Ron Lambert]

Jim, here is the statement: 

7BC 915.3 (S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 7)

(1 Peter 1:11, 12.) The Incarnation a Painful Process—The work of redemption is called a mystery, and it is indeed the mystery by which everlasting righteousness is brought to all who believe. The race in consequence of sin was at enmity with God. Christ, at an infinite cost, BY A PAINFUL PROCESS, mysterious to angels as well as to men, assumed humanity. Hiding His divinity, laying aside His glory, He was born a babe in Bethlehem. In human flesh He lived the law of God, that He might condemn sin in the flesh, and bear witness to heavenly intelligences that the law was ordained to life and to ensure the happiness, peace, and eternal good of all who obey. But the same infinite sacrifice that is life to those who believe is a testimony of condemnation to the disobedient, speaking death and not life (Manuscript 29, 1899). (Emphasis supplied.)

 

Edited June 13, 2015 by Ron Lambert

[Ron Lambert]

 We know that Jesus became incarnate. Somehow Jesus was shrunk to either a cell or sperm, by a "painful process" according to EGW, which impregnated Mary.

That cannot be. Jesus is and always was God. The Bible tells us that "God is spirit...." (John 4:24; NASB) Spirit is different from flesh. Spirit does not have DNA. Jesus could not have been sent to earth as a cell or sperm.

This brings up a matter that I have mentioned before in writing: The common "light bulb" analogy used by SDA evangelists for many years to illustrate what constitutes a living soul is inadequate. The spirit of life must also contain some kind of essential identity. Otherwise how could God really resurrect the same person who actually lived before, and not have it merely be a physical copy with duplicate memeories who only thinks it is the same person? God does not perpetrate a fraud. He really does raise the person who lived before to live again. While there is no consciousness in death, there still must be more to the spirit of life than just an energizing spark.

When we realize this, we also have to recognize that it impacts our understanding of Christology. Since there could be no physical component (no genes, no DNA) added to the zygote in Mary's womb, that means that in the "spirit of life" was included the essential identity that was the Son of God. That is the only way the Son of God could become truly the Son of Man. In preparing a body for Christ, the Holy Spirit obviously created a zygote using Mary's DNA, changing one "X" chromosome into a "Y" chromosome, so Jesus could be male. Please note that if the Holy Spirit had added anything to Mary's zygote, any new or additional genetic material, anything non-human, then Jesus would not truly have been a human being. So Jesus had to take the complete genetic information from Mary's genome, and all that was added was the spirit of life with the essential identity of the divine Son of God.

This also leads to an interesting question: What happened in Heaven when Jesus was Incarnated into Mary's womb on earth? What did the angels witness? Did the one they formerly knew as Michael suddenly vanish? Did the angels observe some sort of solemn ceremony?

This ties in with Ellen G. White's intriguing statement I quoted earlier from 7BC 915, that the Incarnation was "a painful process."

[teresaq]

and had obtained permission

This reminds me of James Rafferty saying he was going to ask his wife if he could buy  a weight set in a discussion on taking his health more seriously. I wonder if she gave him permission...I would assume so...Did he have to ask for permission because his wife was boss, or because she maybe handled the finances and would best know their financial state at that moment.

[teresaq]

I guess I am the only one who thinks being shrunk could be extremely painful...losing all cognitive and physical ability..hard to imagine what all that must have entailed.

Even harder to imagine how it could possibly have been done.

[teresaq]

That cannot be. Jesus is and always was God. The Bible tells us that "God is spirit...." (John 4:24; NASB) Spirit is different from flesh. Spirit does not have DNA. Jesus could not have been sent to earth as a cell or sperm.

 

This also leads to an interesting question: What happened in Heaven when Jesus was Incarnated into Mary's womb on earth? What did the angels witness? Did the one they formerly knew as Michael suddenly vanish? Did the angels observe some sort of solemn ceremony?

This ties in with Ellen G. White's intriguing statement I quoted earlier from 7BC 915, that the Incarnation was "a painful process."

​Where do the scriptures ever state that God is a bodiless spirit? inhabiting all space?

The scriptures I know state that Jesus was aspiritual being Who certainly had a body both before and after His resurrection. Adam had an earthly, natural, body, Jesus had a spiritual body. 1Cor 15

 

[Stewart (SDA)]

This reminds me of James Rafferty saying he was going to ask his wife if he could buy  a weight set in a discussion on taking his health more seriously. I wonder if she gave him permission...I would assume so...Did he have to ask for permission because his wife was boss, or because she maybe handled the finances and would best know their financial state at that moment.

​: )

Hello Teresa,

Isn't "permission" sometimes sought as an expression of love and respect? (I don't think it necessarily implies "rank" does it?) A parent can even seek the permission of a young child in order to do something. I would suggest that Jesus sought the Father's "permission" to give Himself as an offering -- not because the Father is superior to Him in any way, but as an acknowledgement of the love that existed between them.

[Stewart (SDA)]

Jim, here is the statement: 

7BC 915.3 (S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 7)

In my reading of the statement, it seems that deciding to pay the "infinite cost"; deciding to make the "infinite sacrifice", constituted​ the "painful process". I imagine that those heavenly councils were scenes of deep "travail". But of course the Godhead foresaw [and shall see] the results of the travail of their souls, and they shall be satisfied. (Isa 53:11)

(I have just noticed that the word translated "travail" in Isaiah 53:11, is translated "pain" in Psalm 25:18. So it seems reasonable to me that the Divine travail of soul was a "painful process".)

[JimTN]

Ron, thanks for the SOP reference (which still doesn't come up on a search of the Ellen White Estate website that says it has "all" of her writings)....

Just like Sister White never went into detail about the "amalgamation" of man and animals in the Pre-Flood world when she used the term, she clearly did not go into the details of what the "painful process" was when she used that wording -- was she referring to the painful birth process of Mary giving birth?  To me it sounds that the process of Michael getting "condensed" out of his heavenly form and into the womb of Mary had to be the main part of the "painful process"!  But HOW was it painful?  Was it painful to Michael?  Was it "painful" to the angels to watch their beloved GOD vanish before their eyes?  Was it "painful" to GOD the Father to institute the process to send His Son away??  Or was Sister White referring to the ENTIRE event of the Son of GOD incarnating into human flesh onto a planet cursed with sin and evil??

When Jesus incarnated into human flesh, Michael was GONE -- his heavenly body was gone, and all the focus on who the Son of GOD was had been transferred to the earthly Jesus/Yeshua.  If Michael continued to exist, then we'd have 4 PERSONS OF THE GODHEAD... no, it is a logical conclusion to say that Michael gave Himself 100% to becoming Jesus/Yeshua in human flesh, so Michael VANISHED out of existence at that time....

Ron unfortunately is taking a position wherein he fells that he can decide exactly what GOD being a "spirit" is all about, which is a very presumptive thing for any human being in this world to do -- no human being can take the position of "telling" what GOD did or didn't do when it comes to the Incarnation!  Why?  YOU WEREN'T THERE, and it's highly unlikely that GOD ever came to you and explained the entire process of what happened to you.

When Jesus/Yeshua was born into this world and into human flesh, He merged His Godhood with our humanness -- and since being born here gives a person a "blank slate" as far as his mind goes, Jesus/Yeshua had to be educated by both worldly & non-worldly teachers.  We are told that He never sinned as a child because He "surrendered his will" to the Father before He was born -- another mystery for us to be amazed at!  Again, this links to us not totally knowing what "spirit" exactly is for GOD....

Mary only had 23 chromosomes -- normally her husband would contribute the other 23, one of which would be a sex-determinant X or Y chromosome -- so SOMEHOW things were affected by GOD to make Jesus/Yeshua a male!  

Now, is GOD using our world's science processes when it comes to making human beings?  Of course -- but we also know that Jesus/Yesuha was not a "normal" human being... somehow GOD affected that extra Y chromosome, and no one on this planet knows for sure just how He did it, just that in some way He did do it... and this means that well-meaning folks can offer their "suggestions" as to how it happened, but no one knows for sure how it happened.

[Ron Lambert]

​Where do the scriptures ever state that God is a bodiless spirit? inhabiting all space?

The scriptures I know state that Jesus was aspiritual being Who certainly had a body both before and after His resurrection. Adam had an earthly, natural, body, Jesus had a spiritual body. 1Cor 15

 

​All I am going by is John 4:24, that states that God is Spirit. Angels are also called "ministering spirits" in Hebrews 1:14. To be spirit is to not be physical, though of course angels can take any apparent form they wish. Before His Incarnation, the Son of God could also be omnipresent. This divine attribute He permanently gave up when He took on human flesh.

I would also point out the theological need for Jesus Christ to have a body that is truly human, so that He could become the New Head of the human race, take responsibility for humanity, and in Himself pay the penalty for all the sins of mankind (see Romans 6:6; 1 Corinthians 15:22). The Son of God had to also become truly the Son of Man, in order for Him to be qualified to be our Saviour.

As for having a "spiritual body," that refers to His perfected, glorified human flesh. Luke 24:42, 43 tells us that after His Resurrection, when His disciples feared that He was a ghost, Jesus ate some broiled fish, to demonstrate that He still had a physical reality. His flesh was perfected, glorified, but it was still flesh.

[phkrause]

Ron, thanks for the SOP reference (which still doesn't come up on a search of the Ellen White Estate website that says it has "all" of her writings)....

Just like Sister White never went into detail about the "amalgamation" of man and animals in the Pre-Flood world when she used the term, she clearly did not go into the details of what the "painful process" was when she used that wording -- was she referring to the painful birth process of Mary giving birth?  To me it sounds that the process of Michael getting "condensed" out of his heavenly form and into the womb of Mary had to be the main part of the "painful process"!  But HOW was it painful?  Was it painful to Michael?  Was it "painful" to the angels to watch their beloved GOD vanish before their eyes?  Was it "painful" to GOD the Father to institute the process to send His Son away??  Or was Sister White referring to the ENTIRE event of the Son of GOD incarnating into human flesh onto a planet cursed with sin and evil??

When Jesus incarnated into human flesh, Michael was GONE -- his heavenly body was gone, and all the focus on who the Son of GOD was had been transferred to the earthly Jesus/Yeshua.  If Michael continued to exist, then we'd have 4 PERSONS OF THE GODHEAD... no, it is a logical conclusion to say that Michael gave Himself 100% to becoming Jesus/Yeshua in human flesh, so Michael VANISHED out of existence at that time....

Ron unfortunately is taking a position wherein he fells that he can decide exactly what GOD being a "spirit" is all about, which is a very presumptive thing for any human being in this world to do -- no human being can take the position of "telling" what GOD did or didn't do when it comes to the Incarnation!  Why?  YOU WEREN'T THERE, and it's highly unlikely that GOD ever came to you and explained the entire process of what happened to you.

When Jesus/Yeshua was born into this world and into human flesh, He merged His Godhood with our humanness -- and since being born here gives a person a "blank slate" as far as his mind goes, Jesus/Yeshua had to be educated by both worldly & non-worldly teachers.  We are told that He never sinned as a child because He "surrendered his will" to the Father before He was born -- another mystery for us to be amazed at!  Again, this links to us not totally knowing what "spirit" exactly is for GOD....

Mary only had 23 chromosomes -- normally her husband would contribute the other 23, one of which would be a sex-determinant X or Y chromosome -- so SOMEHOW things were affected by GOD to make Jesus/Yeshua a male!  

Now, is GOD using our world's science processes when it comes to making human beings?  Of course -- but we also know that Jesus/Yesuha was not a "normal" human being... somehow GOD affected that extra Y chromosome, and no one on this planet knows for sure just how He did it, just that in some way He did do it... and this means that well-meaning folks can offer their "suggestions" as to how it happened, but no one knows for sure how it happened.

​This is one of those things that we probably will never know until the Good Lord comes and gets us, and we ask!

[Ron Lambert]

Jim, I found the quote on my CD from White Estates that contains all her writings. But I also can find the same statement by going to https://egwwritings.org/ and entering [Incarnation & painful process] (without the brackets).

I know, you look favorably on Ron Wyatt's claim that he found the Ark of the Covenant, hidden in a cave beneath where Christ was crucified, and that some of His blood seeped down through a crack in the rock and fell upon the Ark, and that when some of the dried blood was hydrated, it was found to be still alive, and when tested, it was found to have only half the normal chromosomes taken from Mary (haploid), with an added "Y" chromosome. As I have told you before, I have a lot of trouble accepting all that, even though I think many of Wyatt's archaeological discoveries were valid. I especially do not like the idea of any extra genetic material being added, since that would give Satan grounds for claiming that Christ was not really human, and therefore was not qualified to Redeem the human race in Himself.

[Robert]

This divine attribute He permanently gave up when He took on human flesh.

​I would phrase the above differently.  Christ didn't give up His divinity, but the independent use of it. 

Christ is and was and has always been God. At the incarnation He didn't cease to be God, but instead God the Father united to Christ's Deity  our corporate, fallen humanity in the womb of Mary.

Romans 1:1 Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, 4 who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord...

Edited June 13, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

Was the human nature of the Son of Mary changed into the divine nature of the Son of God? No; the two natures were mysteriously blended in one person--the man Christ Jesus. In Him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died. Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible. Christ, the sinless One, will save every son and daughter of Adam who accepts the salvation proffered them, consenting to become the children of God. The Saviour has purchased the fallen race with His own blood.

This is a great mystery, a mystery that will not be fully, completely understood in all its greatness until the translation of the redeemed shall take place. Then the power and greatness and efficacy of the gift of God to man will be understood. But the enemy is determined that this gift shall be so mystified that it will become as nothingness (The SDA Bible Commentary, Ellen G. White Comments, vol. 5, p. 1113).

Edited June 13, 2015 by Robert

[Ron Lambert]

Robert, it was not my intention to suggest that Jesus ceased to be divine. But for our sakes, He did forever give up one of His divine attributes, omnipresence. Now the Holy Spirit must represent Him everywhere. Jesus is now in one place, interceding for us before the throne of God the Father in the Temple or Sanctuary of God in Heaven.