Pope apologizes to the Waldensians!

[JimTN]

Hmmmm, I wonder what Sister White would say to this June 22nd, 2015 news item:

http://www.cruxnow.com/church/2015/06/22/pope-apologizes-to-once-persecuted-evangelicals/

The pope went to a Waldensian Church in Turin, Italy, for the very 1st time and APOLOGIZED for the way the papacy treated/persecuted them in the past! 

[whbae]

I strongly suspect this pope is able to unite the churches as predicted.

[phkrause]

I read that the other day, pretty interesting stuff.

Won, I believe he has already brought a number of churches back to the fold and a few more are thinking about it.

[BobRyan]

Hmmmm, I wonder what Sister White would say to this June 22nd, 2015 news item:

http://www.cruxnow.com/church/2015/06/22/pope-apologizes-to-once-persecuted-evangelicals/

The pope went to a Waldensian Church in Turin, Italy, for the very 1st time and APOLOGIZED for the way the papacy treated/persecuted them in the past! 

So then the next step is to figure out what to do about the "infallible" ecumenical council "Lateran IV" that infallibly added canon law calling for the "extermination" of heretics and jews.

It is pretty hard to apologize for something - while claiming that the something is in fact infallibly correct. -- wonder if it will come up.

This is one of several things that distinguishes Catholic actions in the past from Protestant ones. .. the Protestant churches have no doctrine preventing them from simply saying that killing/exterminating Catholics was a mistake and should not have been done.

[Gerr]

Are there any Waldensians left to apologize to?

[B/W Photodude]

Are there any Waldensians left to apologize to?

Google is your friend! This is not meant to be a snarky comment because I did that right after reading your question. I see a lot of good reading waiting for me!

And yes, there are waldensian organizations out there. My future reading will let me know if they are continuous with the original ones.

Most interesting factoid gathered so far is they are said to go back to a visit of the Apostle Paul to Spain. I was unaware that the Apostle Paul had ever traveleled to Spain.

http://www.waldensian.org/

[DreamWeaver]

Pope Francis is a creep. He needs to read his bible and wake up! I hope there is hope for him to be awaken so he won't be the head of the beast power because I suspect that whoever leads in the Coming Crisis will have to suffer a terrible punishment by God when the second resurrection occurs. I sometimes wonder what anyone can do to help save the Pope from himself! I would like to send him a letter or something anonymously (if that's even possible), but do you think as a Jesuit he is well aware of what he is doing?

Edited July 6, 2015 by DreamWeaver

[B/W Photodude]

..., but do you think as a Jesuit he is well aware of what he is doing?

I tend to think all popes of today are very well acquainted with the SDA position. I also tend to believe anyone who is well studied into any religious doctrine has at one time or another been spoken to by the Holy Spirit and had to either change or continue as they were. I can imagine it is a very difficult thing for someone who has made it up the "corporate" ladder in a church as big as the RCC to step down over personal doctrinal views and give up the trappings of higher office in such a religious system. Hard enough for average workers to quite working on the Sabbath day.

[Gregory Matthews]

Words such as the following which indicate a total ignorance as to what canon law is make us look very foolish:  NOTE:  If you really believe it is a part of canon law, please cite the numerical number for the canon law.

 

. . .  that infallibly added canon law calling for the "extermination" of heretics and jews.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Gregory Matthews

[B/W Photodude]

Words such as the following which indicate a total ignorance as to what canon law is make us look very foolish:  NOTE:  If you really believe it is a part of canon law, please cite the numerical number for the canon law.

 Lateran IV, Canon 3:

3. On Heretics

We excommunicate and anathematize every heresy raising itself up against this holy, orthodox and catholic faith which we have expounded above. We condemn all heretics, whatever names they may go under. They have different faces indeed but their tails are tied together inasmuch as they are alike in their pride. Let those condemned be handed over to the secular authorities present, or to their bailiffs, for due punishment. Clerics are first to be degraded from their orders. The goods of the condemned are to be confiscated, if they are lay persons, and if clerics they are to be applied to the churches from which they received their stipends. Those who are only found suspect of heresy are to be struck with the sword of anathema, unless they prove their innocence by an appropriate purgation, having regard to the reasons for suspicion and the character of the person. Let such persons be avoided by all until they have made adequate satisfaction. If they persist in the excommunication for a year, they are to be condemned as heretics. Let secular authorities, whatever offices they may be discharging, be advised and urged and if necessary be compelled by ecclesiastical censure, if they wish to be reputed and held to be faithful, to take publicly an oath for the defence of the faith to the effect that they will seek, in so far as they can, to expel from the lands subject to their jurisdiction all heretics designated by the church in good faith. Thus whenever anyone is promoted to spiritual or temporal authority, he shall be obliged to confirm this article with an oath. If however a temporal lord, required and instructed by the church, neglects to cleanse his territory of this heretical filth, he shall be bound with the bond of excommunication by the metropolitan and other bishops of the province. If he refuses to give satisfaction within a year, this shall be reported to the supreme pontiff so that he may then declare his vassals absolved from their fealty to him and make the land available for occupation by Catholics so that these may, after they have expelled the heretics, possess it unopposed and preserve it in the purity of the faith — saving the right of the suzerain provided that he makes no difficulty in the matter and puts no impediment in the way. The same law is to be observed no less as regards those who do not have a suzerain.

Catholics who take the cross and gird themselves up for the expulsion of heretics shall enjoy the same indulgence, and be strengthened by the same holy privilege, as is granted to those who go to the aid of the holy Land. Moreover, we determine to subject to excommunication believers who receive, defend or support heretics. We strictly ordain that if any such person, after he has been designated as excommunicated, refuses to render satisfaction within a year, then by the law itself he shall be branded as infamous and not be admitted to public offices or councils or to elect others to the same or to give testimony. He shall be intestable, that is he shall not have the freedom to make a will nor shall succeed to an inheritance. Moreover nobody shall be compelled to answer to him on any business whatever, but he may be compelled to answer to them. If he is a judge sentences pronounced by him shall have no force and cases may not be brought before him; if an advocate, he may not be allowed to defend anyone; if a notary, documents drawn up by him shall be worthless and condemned along with their condemned author; and in similar matters we order the same to be observed. If however he is a cleric, let him be deposed from every office and benefice, so that the greater the fault the greater be the punishment. If any refuse to avoid such persons after they have been pointed out by the church, let them be punished with the sentence of excommunication until they make suitable satisfaction. Clerics should not, of course, give the sacraments of the church to such pestilent people nor give them a Christian burial nor accept alms or offerings from them; if they do, let them be deprived of their office and not restored to it without a special indult of the apostolic see. Similarly with regulars, let them be punished with losing their privileges in the diocese in which they presume to commit such excesses.

"There are some who holding to the form of religion but denying its power (as the Apostle says) , claim for themselves the authority to preach, whereas the same Apostle says, How shall they preach unless they are sent? Let therefore all those who have been forbidden or not sent to preach, and yet dare publicly or privately to usurp the office of preaching without having received the authority of the apostolic see or the catholic bishop of the place", be bound with the bond of excommunication and, unless they repent very quickly, be punished by another suitable penalty. We add further that each archbishop or bishop, either in person or through his archdeacon or through suitable honest persons, should visit twice or at least once in the year any parish of his in which heretics are said to live. There he should compel three or more men of good repute, or even if it seems expedient the whole neighbourhood, to swear that if anyone knows of heretics there or of any persons who hold secret conventicles or who differ in their life and habits from the normal way of living of the faithful, then he will take care to point them out to the bishop. The bishop himself should summon the accused to his presence, and they should be punished canonically if they are unable to clear themselves of the charge or if after compurgation they relapse into their former errors of faith. If however any of them with damnable obstinacy refuse to honour an oath and so will not take it, let them by this very fact be regarded as heretics. We therefore will and command and, in virtue of obedience, strictly command that bishops see carefully to the effective execution of these things throughout their dioceses, if they wish to avoid canonical penalties. If any bishop is negligent or remiss in cleansing his diocese of the ferment of heresy, then when this shows itself by unmistakeable signs he shall be deposed from his office as bishop and there shall be put in his place a suitable person who both wishes and is able to overthrow the evil of heresy.

[JoeMo]

Thanks for your sobering wisdom, Gregory.  I can't believe some of the stuff I read.  It makes me embarassed to call myself an SDA sometimes.  People who have no idea of when the pope speaks from a position of supposed infallibility (I believe it is only through a document called a "papal bull").  Besides, there are fewer Catholics who believe in the infallibility of the Poppe than there are Adventists who believe in the infallibility of EGW.  The Pope is only "infallible" to the degree that  people believe him to be.

DreamWeaver - calling  Pope Francis "a creep" is an affront to any Catholics or Catholic-leaning people who visit here.  I'm an SDA who is a former Catholic; and I was offended. I'm sure you have heard the verse that says "do unto others ..."  How does it make you feel when someone calls EGW a "creep" or a "charlatan"?

[debbym]

Pope Francis .... He needs to read his bible and wake up! I hope there is hope for him to be awaken so he won't be the head of the beast power because I suspect that whoever leads in the Coming Crisis will have to suffer a terrible punishment by God when the second resurrection occurs. I sometimes wonder what anyone can do to help save the Pope from himself! I would like to send him a letter or something anonymously (if that's even possible), but do you think as a Jesuit he is well aware of what he is doing?

no one need Jesus anymore than anyone else.  We are all equally sinners in need of the graciousness of God.  We do not see anyone as God sees, including ourselves.  Like Pilate, an unwitting player in the final events of Christ's life, we will all be caught in the web of time and play one position or another as final events quickly unfold.  But by the grace of God, not by our own doing we  all will be crying crucify Him crucify Him, in the person of His own.

[DreamWeaver]

Pilate was not unwitting. He was unwilling. Unwilling to stand up for Jesus because his heart was caught between two choices: the people or Christ.

I'm not trying to be mean and set myself above the Pope just because he's playing the part that he's playing. What I'm asking is: if he is in some way simply ignorant of his position in Revelation at this very moment or is his heart hardened already because someone already told him that he holds the office of the beast power?

Edited July 6, 2015 by DreamWeaver

[Gregory Matthews]

Photodude, thank you for your citation.  Now we have something to discuss.  You cited the Lateran IV, Canon 3: (which is dated to 1215).  I made no reference to that Council.  Please note that my comment was related to the following phrase: ". . .that infallibly added canon law calling for the "extermination" of heretics and jews."  My reference was to that phrase which was made by Bob Ryan.

Your citation had nothing to do with my statement.  Your citation was related to canon 3 of the 1215 Lateran IV Church Council.

A "Canon" of he Roman Catholic Church Is not a "code of canon law."   They are two different things.  They have two different purposes.

This brings up another subject.  Bob Ryan suggested that Canon 3 of the Lateran Council IV was infallible.  I could have taken him on for that, because he is simply wrong.  A Canon of a RC Church Council is simply a teaching, as defined at that time.  The fact that it is a canon does not make it ipso facto infallible.  It can be subject to change by another council at another time and place and in another situation. 

If you want to know what Canon 3 of the Code of Canon Law says see below:

 

The canons of the code do not abrogate, nor do they derogate from, agreements entered into by the Apostolic See with nations or other civil entities.  For this reason, these agreements continue in force as hitherto, notwithstanding any contrary provisions of this Code.

 

NOTE: My reference source of Canon Law is accurate and constitutes Roman Catholic Law.  However, I probably do not have the latest update and therefore what I have cited may lack current updating.

The bottom line:  My comment about what Bob Ryan said was accurate.  He appears to lack a basic understanding of the nature of Roman Catholic Canon Law, as well as lacking a basic understanding as to what is infallible and what is not.

 

 

 

Edited July 8, 2015 by Gregory Matthews

[Gregory Matthews]

The term "canon law" as applied to the Roman Catholic Church is a modern term.  At the very least, it did not exist in 1215 in the manner that it exists today.

By the 1800's the various Councils had come up which some have estimated as 10,000 canons, or teachings.  Many conflicted with others.  Many were clearly applicable to specific situations, times and places as  opposed to being global in nature. 

In the 1800's a Pope began an effort to classify that thousands of canons, eliminate the contradictions and overall standardize them.  That effort has produced what today is called the Code of Canon Law, or simply Canon Law, which is the modern term used  by Bob Ryan.

 

Edited July 9, 2015 by Gregory Matthews

[DreamWeaver]

DreamWeaver - calling  Pope Francis "a creep" is an affront to any Catholics or Catholic-leaning people who visit here.  I'm an SDA who is a former Catholic; and I was offended. I'm sure you have heard the verse that says "do unto others ..."  How does it make you feel when someone calls EGW a "creep" or a "charlatan"?

Sorry. I'm still learning how to be gentle. Didn't mean to offend you. When I hear or read about people calling EGW names, I often feel a pinch but I try not to be too shocked about it. Its not welcomed but its expected, so I try not to take it personal.

Francis still seriously makes me uncomfortable though. EGW never caused me to worry that she would some day achieve world domination.

[LifeHiscost]

Sorry. I'm still learning how to be gentle. Didn't mean to offend you. When I hear or read about people calling EGW names, I often feel a pinch but I try not to be too shocked about it. Its not welcomed but its expected, so I try not to take it personal.

Francis still seriously makes me uncomfortable though. EGW never caused me to worry that she would some day achieve world domination.

This might help one to see what to expect when any effort to change present thought is entertained, no matter the intent, except and unless the primary interest is to establish what is Truth.

  

“Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.” (2 Timothy 4:2). Whoever attempts the work of reform will have decided opposition to meet. This work requires self-renunciation…. We must not ask whether we are appreciated or unappreciated. With this we have naught to do. Look at the way in which Christ worked. Whoever attempts any work of reform, whoever tries to lead the sinner to a life of self-denial and holiness will need every hour the assurance given by Christ after His resurrection, “Lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world” (Matthew 28:20). It is not for you or me to measure the appreciation shown for the self-denial and self-sacrifice made. The work of reform will call for all the faith and tears and prayers that human intelligence can bear. Our commission is, Lift the cross, and bear it after Jesus, striving ever for the same spirit that led Jesus to yearn for His anticipated baptism of suffering upon the cross.

This Day With God, p. 49

.

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves!