Gail

Now the fallout

74 posts in this topic

Well, another big GC vote has come and gone and my heart is filled with sadness:

  • that WO was such a big ordeal to begin with
  • that the result has pulled some to set their allegiance not only against the church but against God totally. 
  • that some are gloating and calling down condemnation on those that disagree. The anti-SDAs are having a field day with this

My heart weeps for my friends in the church, outside the church, and for those who are seeking or struggling with their stand with the Saviour. I have lived through Ford, legalism and sanctuary struggles, Emerging church, New Age, and a couple of GC controversies. I sense that more are to come and that we are not finished yet.

 

GayatfootofCross, Sojourner and Kevin H like this

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I didn't think so much was happening already. Its only been about a day since the vote was made.

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This is on Facebook... Pretty emotional. There are a few that are closer to me that I have especially prayed for, but have included prayers for us all. Family included, pastors included.

Why this was a "do or die" issue with some on both sides is beyond my understanding.

Naomi likes this

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Facebook. I am much happier without it.

Sorry to hear this, Gail. I had hoped that people of all beliefs regarding WO would rise above the bickering and instead love one another graciously.

Naomi and Stan like this

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I was impressed with the tone of the discussion before the vote. I thought that Mike Ryan did a great job at maintaining order. Quite a few opportunities were taken for prayer time out and no applause nor even, "Amens" were allowed following comments from delegates at the mic. So I could see that administration was trying to discourage heated discussion.

But the comments that followed the vote on social media =>  :(

These were not delegates, but the common folk like you and me (mostly). I live in one of those conferences where there are women pastors so negative comments from others in the same area were not surprising. But to read things like, "How long can I continue to support..." from a pastor raised a red flag.

It is not the first time a controversial electoral result has taken place at the GC level... I expected that representation from areas in Inter-American and African continents would outnumber those from Europe, Australia and N. America and the votes reflected that. We in the NAD just have to get used to that because that dynamic is not going away any time soon.

I do appreciate the comments I read from those who desire to reach beyond this event. Gracious is a good word to describe this spirit :)

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Well, another big GC vote has come and gone and my heart is filled with sadness:

  • that WO was such a big ordeal to begin with
  • that the result has pulled some to set their allegiance not only against the church but against God totally. 
  • that some are gloating and calling down condemnation on those that disagree. The anti-SDAs are having a field day with this

My heart weeps for my friends in the church, outside the church, and for those who are seeking or struggling with their stand with the Saviour. I have lived through Ford, legalism and sanctuary struggles, Emerging church, New Age, and a couple of GC controversies. I sense that more are to come and that we are not finished yet.

 

I appreciate your comments Gail, this issue seems to be quite the distraction from lifting up Jesus to a perishing world.  "He must increase, I must decrease" needs to be our language today.

GayatfootofCross and Gail like this

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I haven't seen much on Facebook about it, except for the comments under the various reports....and most of those are by the same tiresome people who feel the need to throw stones at the "opposition" and do the na-na-na-na-na-na dance.

And because those are the ones who are being visible now, the church is looking like a bunch of 3rd graders to the public.

Naomi and Gail like this

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Not only that but totally irrelevant for today's world

I agree, lots of squeaky wheels out there

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I haven't seen much on Facebook about it, except for the comments under the various reports....and most of those are by the same tiresome people who feel the need to throw stones at the "opposition" and do the na-na-na-na-na-na dance.

And because those are the ones who are being visible now, the church is looking like a bunch of 3rd graders to the public.

Its not like the people that are pro-WO would have acted any differently though. I'm not on FB to witness any of the foolishness, but I think that either way, someone would have felt the impulse on social media to act like football fanatics and start stuff online. That's just how people are these days. Its sad and immature, but it was gonna happen either way.

Naomi and Gail like this

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I know face-to-face, not Facebook, people who would have had a lot of issues dealing with a Yes vote.  But, no one with feelings so strong that they would have trashed the church on public media or left.

I would not want anyone to leave our church, however it that is their choice and it is their right to do so

I am going to sound pretty hard-hearted now, but why do I care what the Adventist Haters say?  They take up time and mess with people's heads.  If we stick to the Bible and keep our eyes focused upon Jesus all in due season all these things will pass away.

 

 

DreamWeaver likes this

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I appreciate your comments Gail, this issue seems to be quite the distraction from lifting up Jesus to a perishing world.  "He must increase, I must decrease" needs to be our language today.

::like::

We all need to remember each other in prayer.

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’[a] 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two..... Matthew 5

God is Love!  Jesus saves!  :D

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Let us not rush to the language of healing, before understanding the fullness of the injury and the depth of the wound.

Let us not rush to offer a band-aid, when the gaping wound requires surgery and complete reconstruction.

Let us not offer false equivalencies, thereby diminishing the particular pain being felt in a particular circumstance in a particular historical moment.

Let us not speak of reconciliation without speaking of reparations and restoration, or how we can repair the breach and how we can restore the loss.

Let us not rush past the loss of this mother’s child, this father’s child…someone’s beloved son.

Let us not value property over people; let us not protect material objects while human lives hang in the balance.

Let us not value a false peace over a righteous justice.

Let us not be afraid to sit with the ugliness, the messiness, and the pain that is life in community together.

Let us not offer clichés to the grieving, those whose hearts are being torn asunder.

Instead…

Let us mourn black and brown men and women, those killed extrajudicially every 28 hours.

Let us lament the loss of a teenager, dead at the hands of a police officer who described him as a demon.

Let us weep at a criminal justice system, which is neither blind nor just.

Let us call for the mourning men and the wailing women, those willing to rend their garments of privilege and ease, and sit in the ashes of this nation’s original sin.

Let us be silent when we don’t know what to say.

Let us be humble and listen to the pain, rage, and grief pouring from the lips of our neighbors and friends.

Let us decrease, so that our brothers and sisters who live on the underside of history may increase.

Let us pray with our eyes open and our feet firmly planted on the ground

Let us listen to the shattering glass and let us smell the purifying fires, for it is the language of the unheard.

God, in your mercy…

Show me my own complicity in injustice.

Convict me for my indifference.

Forgive me when I have remained silent.

Equip me with a zeal for righteousness.

Never let me grow accustomed or acclimated to unrighteousness.

Dr. Yolanda Pierce is the Elmer G. Homrighausen Associate Professor of African American Religion and Literature at Princeton Theological Seminary, and Liaison with the Princeton University Center for African American Studies. She blogs @ Reflections of an Afro-Christian Scholar

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Could qualified SDA women preach in churches belonging to other denominations?

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Yes.

The SDA Church has women working as Federal chaplains.  As such they preach is services that are not SDA.

 

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This is on Facebook... Pretty emotional. There are a few that are closer to me that I have especially prayed for, but have included prayers for us all. Family included, pastors included.

Why this was a "do or die" issue with some on both sides is beyond my understanding.

The issue as I understand it  is rightly dividing the word of truth.

Some SDA's read that Christ is the Head of the Church and thus since Calvary He alone fulfills the headship role.

Other SDA's read that mortal man is the head of the church as Christ's representative (the vicar of Christ [though they would be offended to be viewed that way]) and thus this headship position of pastor, conference President, etc., can only be fulfilled by a man.

And it now appears that those who have united to establish the headship doctrine are using their political unity to dictate the conscience of the rest of their brethren.

[Far better to have Christ as the head of the Church and to allow everyone (male and female) to be ordained and allow conferences to opt out if they do not agree than to compel everyone to conform against their will.]

But it is time for the shaking and the Omega controversy, so Woman's ordination is as good as any issue to ignite that which has been foretold that will shake the church to its foundation.

IMHO the final sealing of God's people has begun and Jesus is at the door. So that which would not be expected to be a big deal is blown out of proportion as a do or die issue.

 

 

Naomi likes this

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hch, that was a VERY twisted statement that shows that you don't get (and in someways don't even respectfully disagree with) the opposite position.

I'm not going to start an entire debate here because this thread is about the fallout on facebook. But what I will say is this: that "vicar of Christ" stuff has nothing to do, whatsoever, with people (like myself) who are not for women's ordination. I'm pretty sure most, if not all, SDA members are seriously against that perspective and are probably fighting one another in this issue SPECIFICALLY to do what they think will keep us from merging with the papal powers. What just came out of your mouth was not even a portion of the true thinking behind the position someone like myself holds, but a caricature-like straw man of what people like me think about the issue and what actually happened this week.

If you are for women's ordination, I may not believe your stance is biblical, but at least I will try to understand that you guys are trying to do what you think will get rid of sexism and move the gospel forward.

Also, I'm beginning to see a trend that the pro-women's ordination side exhibits. This is not directed toward you, hch, per se, but your comment at the end prompted this thought that just came across my mind.

Many pro-WO individuals have this attitude that "it shouldn't be that big of a deal" or "its not do or die". Statements like that shows an extreme difference in the thinking between people who are for and against WO. Some people need to understand that, to people like me, this is an issue about how we read and interpret scripture. Its also about how much the church will be transformed based off of what's going on in society and where the line should be drawn. It is not about stamping down on women or elevating males to a god-like status. This is probably why respectful debate can't be done on this issue with some people, because the same accusatory and careless spirit that's seen in other unorthodox pushes is found in many people pushing for WO. Some of you have this immature position that the church is just making an issue out of nothing when its more than just a petty playground "girls vs boys" argument.

brotherly love likes this

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Some have argued that ordination of men OR women is a rite brought to us by Catholicism...

Sojourner likes this

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Some have argued that ordination of men OR women is a rite brought to us by Catholicism...

I'm not sure where it came from, but I don't think ordination as it is done today can be honestly supported from the Bible. But then there are a number of things that are done today that aren't taught in the Bible:

  • democracy -- deciding things by voting.  How many votes were taken in the Bible?  (Just one that I know of.)
  • paid clergy
  • young "elders" -- Shouldn't an elder be older?
  • denominations -- Jesus prayed for unity among his followers.  Denominations create artificial barriers that hamper unity.
Sojourner likes this

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How can I support this church? Thank God that I don't belong to a church set in concrete. This vote is not the end and we continue to study.

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hch, that was a VERY twisted statement that shows that you don't get (and in someways don't even respectfully disagree with) the opposite position.

I have viewed Woman's Ordination from both sides. Initially, I did not give it any notice except to say the SDA Church does not do it so that's fine with me; until President Wilson urged all members to study it to make their mind up based on Scriptures and the leading of the Holy Spirit. So I prayerfully studied it and this is what I found:

The Bible is clear: Women will be kings and priests in Heaven (and on earth). (cf Rev 1:5-6; 5:10). Christ has revealed to "His servants things which must shortly come to pass." (1:1). And the blessing is to those "that read, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand." (1:3).

Is there a blessing promised to those who refuse to hear and who refuse to obey that which is revealed in this prophecy?

Jesus prayed: "Thy will be done in earth as it is in Heaven." (Matthew 6:10). Then Jesus revealed what God's will is in Heaven and earth. Jesus is the head of the Church and men and women are Kings and priests that are empowered to bring others to Jesus.

And Jesus gave a parable to warn of the consequences of refusing to allow Jesus to rule [the warning is not to put men as the head of the church in place of Christ]:

"because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return... But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us." [Perhaps this is illustrated in the fact that they invented the male headship doctrine that puts man as the vicar of Christ to head the church instead of accepting Christ as the Head of the Church?] Then the nobleman (Jesus) returns from his journey and pronounces judgment on those who did not want Him to rule over them: "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." (cf Luke 19:12-27).

Once the word of God reveals truth to an individual, that person is not obligated to support a lie no matter if well meaning individuals promote it. I do not believe what you are trying to sell me. You believe it, you support it; and I'll put my money where my mouth is.

 

 

"

"

 

 

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hch, I can see how you could have come to those conclusions. And I can also see that you're probably set in your ways. But your perspective is just not on par with the reality of the matter and your arsenal of evidence is lacking a large variety of important scriptures that you must consider in order to get the full picture. Maybe some other time (if you can humble yourself to an actual conversation with me) I will return to sit down and write an essay on this topic. Or I will find a source that has everything I already wish to type to you. But for now, I can't afford to sit and type for too long on this issue. I currently have a headache for reasons that are unrelated to this thread.

Also, I'm not trying to "sell" you anything. Try to use some better wording and play nice next time, please. I'm not here to harm you or whatever it is you think I'm doing.

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hch, I can see how you could have come to those conclusions. And I can also see that you're probably set in your ways. But your perspective is just not on par with the reality of the matter and your arsenal of evidence is lacking a large variety of important scriptures that you must consider in order to get the full picture. Maybe some other time (if you can humble yourself to an actual conversation with me) ........

Now that's a guaranteed way to start up a conversation!!!

Not!!!!

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Now that's a guaranteed way to start up a conversation!!!

Not!!!!

I think you're building a terrible habit of reading my messages wrong. This is probably the second time you've addressed me for something I've said to someone else. I addressed this person like this because they were trying to assume things about my position that were not even yet discussed. Now, you can read this message however you like and mock me like you seem to enjoy doing. But I would really like it if someone as mature in age as yourself would not sound like you're trying to instigate arguments between people every time others are exchanging touchy perspectives on difficult topics. I think you have a difficult time figuring out my tone and the tone of many others who share opposing points to yours. So with that in mind could you please do your best to read things as they are? And when two people are trying to straighten out a misunderstanding, could you not fan flames?

I already didn't know how to respond to this person and (believe it or not) I tried my best. But your antagonizing post will probably make it a little harder for this individual to see my post as I intended to have it read.

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Many pro-WO individuals have this attitude that "it shouldn't be that big of a deal" or "its not do or die". Statements like that shows an extreme difference in the thinking between people who are for and against WO. Some people need to understand that, to people like me, this is an issue about how we read and interpret scripture. Its also about how much the church will be transformed based off of what's going on in society and where the line should be drawn. It is not about stamping down on women or elevating males to a god-like status. This is probably why respectful debate can't be done on this issue with some people, because the same accusatory and careless spirit that's seen in other unorthodox pushes is found in many people pushing for WO. Some of you have this immature position that the church is just making an issue out of nothing when its more than just a petty playground "girls vs boys" argument.

this diversity of thought and variations in systems in approaching the Scriptures could not have been exposed by any other issue that carries so much power in identity formation.   People are very invested in their identity, even the enemy came to Jesus and said "if thou be the son of God turn these stones into bread."  Individuals in both aide and variety of positions in both sides find profound cracks in commonality let alone unity on this issue.  it is potentially profoundly divisive.  It places people in the "Us vs. Them" camps.  The enmy is having a hey day with this.

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