Gospel to the "whole" world?

[Samie]

Funny; I don't see the phrase "who have ever lived" in Matt. 24:30.  Could it possibly be that ""all the tribes of the earth" refers to all those living at the 2nd Coming?

Yes, all living.  And who is not when all in the graves are raised?

^NIV John 5:28-29   ²⁸ "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice ²⁹ and come out-- those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

How can they hear and come out if they had not been resurrected?

[B/W Photodude]

I tend to think that God himself will finish the work as when I look at the signs of the "end of the age," there is still a lot of work to do if we are depending on humans to do the work. I really don't think God is going to wait on us. Therefore the argument on who  the gospel goes to or who hears it in the grave is all a really moot point. The end will come when God says enough and I suspect most will not even know it.

[8thdaypriest]

Yes, all living.  And who is not when all in the graves are raised?

^NIV John 5:28-29   ²⁸ "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice ²⁹ and come out-- those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

How can they hear and come out if they had not been resurrected?

"all who are in their graves" who have done good - will come out.

AND

"all who are in their graves" who have done evil - will come out

THE REST - will not come out - at least not on that day.  They will not "live again" until the thousand years are finished. 

There are many who have done NEITHER good nor evil.  Infants, young children, and the mentally disabled.  These have done NEITHER.  They have NO WORKS - AT ALL.

You Samie, believe that all names are "written in the Book of eternal Life" before the "foundation of the world" therefore all these are "saved".  I call that being given a FREE PASS into the Kingdom and eternal life.  No CHOICE necessary.  They are saved just because they happened to die as children.  It makes folks FEEL good, but - if you think about it - it is manipulation.  It is destiny WITHOUT choice.

If Adam and Eve were already "saved" (before they even existed) and every sin they would EVER commit was already put upon Christ, and was therefore "forgiven", then why did the LORD hold them accountable for eating the fruit?  Same for every sin that any person commits.  How then can ANYONE be lost,, for any sin ? 

Samie says that one must "overcome evil with good" when presented with the TEST.  But "failure to overcome" is a sin - right?  And if EVERY sin, of every person, who ever lived, was forgiven , then HOW can God put those sins BACK? 

 

[Samie]

"all who are in their graves" who have done good - will come out.

AND

"all who are in their graves" who have done evil - will come out

THE REST - will not come out - at least not on that day.  They will not "live again" until the thousand years are finished. 

There are many who have done NEITHER good nor evil.  Infants, young children, and the mentally disabled.  These have done NEITHER.  They have NO WORKS - AT ALL.

You Samie, believe that all names are "written in the Book of eternal Life" before the "foundation of the world" therefore all these are "saved".  I call that being given a FREE PASS into the Kingdom and eternal life.  No CHOICE necessary.  They are saved just because they happened to die as children.  It makes folks FEEL good, but - if you think about it - it is manipulation.  It is destiny WITHOUT choice.

You seem to be manipulating John 5:28, 29. In v28, Jesus was plainly saying all in the graves will hear his voice and come out (v29). All in the graves simply means all who have died. Then in the next verse, our Lord tells us the destiny of those who have done good and those who have done evil. He did not tell us the destiny of the "REST" you specified as those who have done neither good nor evil. Yet they they were resurrected, because He said "all in the graves will hear his voice and come out".  Whether they will be ushered to heaven or not is God's decision.

You 8thdaypriest, can't accept that the "REST" will be resurrected at the 2nd Coming because of your 8th millennium doctrine. As to their destiny, I believe God will take them to heaven because of His grace, but you said it is manipulation.  Since when did grace become manipulation? You said "It is destiny WITHOUT choice."  I say it WAS destiny without choice, why? Because God predestined us BEFORE the foundation of the world, before you and I and everyone else existed!!!

 ^NKJ Ephesians 1:3-5   ³ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,  ⁴ just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,  ⁵having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will

You can call it MANIPULATION. I prefer to call it GRACE, as per Scriptures:

^KJV 2 Timothy 1:   ⁹ [God] hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and GRACE which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began ¹⁰ But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

[Samie]

If Adam and Eve were already "saved" (before they even existed) and every sin they would EVER commit was already put upon Christ, and was therefore "forgiven", then why did the LORD hold them accountable for eating the fruit?  Same for every sin that any person commits.  How then can ANYONE be lost,, for any sin ? 

They were held accountable because they did not overcome evil with good.

Contingent upon the life, death and resurrection of our Lord, their sin was forgiven, but the act of sinning is the reminder that they have not overcome that evil with good.  People are lost NOT because of sin, but because their names were blotted out from the Book of Life when they die for not overcoming evil with good while alive.

Samie says that one must "overcome evil with good" when presented with the TEST.  But "failure to overcome" is a sin - right?  And if EVERY sin, of every person, who ever lived, was forgiven , then HOW can God put those sins BACK? 

There's no putting BACK of sins. Why would God put back sins He refuses to remember? The Father said "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." (NKJ Heb 10:17)

[8thdaypriest]

Samie,

I don't want to take over this thread also, with the UNENDING debate over just WHEN and HOW human beings were/are "saved".  I'm not going to continue here - in this thread. 

[Samie]

Samie,

I don't want to take over this thread also, with the UNENDING debate over just WHEN and HOW human beings were/are "saved".  I'm not going to continue here - in this thread. 

I respect your decision.

[Geoarrge]

What would it take to do the job of preaching the Gospel to these uncontacted tribes?  Attempting direct contact could be a bad idea, as they're vulnerable to disease as well as some of them being murderously xenophobic.   So, a series of missions centered around airdropping solar-powered tablets loaded with evangelical materials such as silent movies and illustrated Bible stories.  It might possibly be necessary to commission some new materials for that project.  Since storage space isn't too much of a concern anymore, other useful things like language lessons could be thrown in.  The deliveries would be conducted by UAV -- probably requiring something big enough (for the range and payload capacity) to fall under ITAR restrictions requiring permits to get around.  Especially for the southeast Asia/Oceania island missions, a yacht, probably purchased out of Australia, would be especially desirable and need to be outfitted as a launchpad and control center for the UAVs.   Then it would just be a matter of travel and shipping expenses for the missionaries and hardware.   I daresay the whole project would add up to less than $2M (USD). 

[Samie]

What would it take to do the job of preaching the Gospel to these uncontacted tribes?  Attempting direct contact could be a bad idea, as they're vulnerable to disease as well as some of them being murderously xenophobic.   So, a series of missions centered around airdropping solar-powered tablets loaded with evangelical materials such as silent movies and illustrated Bible stories.  It might possibly be necessary to commission some new materials for that project.  Since storage space isn't too much of a concern anymore, other useful things like language lessons could be thrown in.  The deliveries would be conducted by UAV -- probably requiring something big enough (for the range and payload capacity) to fall under ITAR restrictions requiring permits to get around.  Especially for the southeast Asia/Oceania island missions, a yacht, probably purchased out of Australia, would be especially desirable and need to be outfitted as a launchpad and control center for the UAVs.   Then it would just be a matter of travel and shipping expenses for the missionaries and hardware.   I daresay the whole project would add up to less than $2M (USD). 

And bring them THE Gospel of Christ, that because of what Jesus did on the cross, their names are also in the Book of Life and that they need to overcome evil with good so their names don't get blotted out.

[Geoarrge]

And bring them THE Gospel of Christ, that because of what Jesus did on the cross, their names are also in the Book of Life and that they need to overcome evil with good so their names don't get blotted out.

Arithmetic before algebra.

[Samie]

Arithmetic before algebra.

Yes. Not cart before the horse.

[pnattmbtc]

And bring them THE Gospel of Christ, that because of what Jesus did on the cross, their names are also in the Book of Life and that they need to overcome evil with good so their names don't get blotted out.

God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

1.God forgives!

2.Because God forgives, He gave His Son.

3.Now you be reconciled to God. (believe!)

4.As the result of believing, you will overcome evil with good, and, also as a result of believing, your name will not be blotted out of the book of life. 

[Unchained]

I do believe that every living person will have heard the gospel before the door of mercy is forever closed. All will be given the opportunity to choose between light and darkness, between Jesus and the devil. And yes, this means that no matter how isolated you are, the message of the love of Jesus will find you!

We have to remember that we aren't supposed to bring the gospel to the ends of the earth through our own power. We're promised that God eventually will shed the latter rain on us, and the result of this is that the gospel message will spread like wildfire.

Language won't be a problem, if necessary God will give us the gift of speaking languages we haven't heard before. Distances won't be a problem either. Philip the evangelist was literally teleported; the Spirit lifted him up and put him down in a different physical location. Our job isn't to worry about how the gospel message will reach the ends of the earth in a technical sense, God will take care of that. Our job is to be witnesses for Christ wherever we are, and humbly waiting for the latter rain.

[JoeMo]

 Sorry Samie; I have no idea why your name popped up there.

Unchained, what about those who have died without ever hearing the name of Jesus; and those who were too mentally handicapped to grasp the gospel, or those who died in infancy, or those who have been so twisted by false religion that never met the "real Jesus"?  What happens to them?  Is it fair for them to perish because they didn't hear the gospel?

[Unchained]

@JoeMo:

We are judged according to the light we have received. I don't believe that people who never heard about Jesus automatically are lost, God wouldn't be fair if that was the case.

"For whenever the Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, these who do not have the law are a law to themselves. They show that the work of the law is written in their hearts, as their conscience bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or else defend them, on the day when God will judge the secrets of human hearts, according to my gospel through Christ Jesus." - Romans 2:14-16

I don't believe that small children are morally accountable before they are able to distinguish between right and wrong. I believe that God is more merciful than we believe. Of course he will punish genuine rebellion, but God isn't an arbitrary person who condemns individuals to damnation “just because”. I think we'll be surprised when we reach heaven, people who we wouldn't have considered to be candidates for heaven could certainly end up there. God is the judge, only he knows our hearts!

That said, the big finale of human history is different... Every morally accountable person will hear the gospel and will be tested… Are we going to receive the seal of God or the Mark of the Beast, that will be the question.

[phkrause]

 Unchained, what about those who have died without ever hearing the name of Jesus; and those who were too mentally handicapped to grasp the gospel, or those who died in infancy, or those who have been so twisted by false religion that never met the "real Jesus"?

I think JoeMo that they will be judged by how they have lived there lives according to the light they have received.

[Stan]

>>>>We are judged according to the light we have received.

 

While it may be true...  is there any biblical backing?

[B/W Photodude]

While it may be true...  is there any biblical backing?

From Romans 1:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.

20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

Edited September 5, 2015 by B/W Photodude

[phkrause]

>>>>We are judged according to the light we have received.

 

While it may be true...  is there any biblical backing?

I believe you are correct Stan! If I'm not mistaken, it's a EGW statement?

[Unchained]

>>>>We are judged according to the light we have received.

 

While it may be true...  is there any biblical backing?

Well, I think the passage I quoted from Romans 2:14-16 is quite clear. Paul speaks of Gentiles who do not have the law (i.e. “the scriptures”). Even if they haven't heard the word of God, they still have a measure of light hidden in their hearts, and this makes it possible for God to judge them on the last day. All humans have a conscience and the Holy Spirit reaches out to all, not only to people in Christian nations. Also, as @B/W Photodude correctly pointed out, Romans 1 teach that there are things which we all can know about God. Pagans might not have the scriptures or the explicit teachings of the gospel, but they do have the witness of nature.

I think we also should remember that God isn't partial, he has no favourites:

““Are you Israelites more important to me
than the Ethiopians?” asks the LORD.
“I brought Israel out of Egypt,
but I also brought the Philistines from Crete
and led the Arameans out of Kir.”
- Amos 9:7 NLT

We could apply this passage to our time and say that we Adventists aren't more important or more dearly loved by God than Muslims, Hindus or Catholics. It's not as if some people are denied the opportunity of going to heaven simply because they happen to be born in a place the gospel hasn't reached yet.

 

 

[Unchained]

If I'm not mistaken, it's a EGW statement?

Yes, Ellen White says something like this in quite a few places. Here are a few examples:

"There are many who have not had the light, and they are not judged guilty. They mourn because of their human ignorance. They find nothing satisfactory, and thirst for a knowledge of the only true God. They have an ideal of God in their minds and they desire to find Him." {TMK 217.3}

* * *

"Probation is granted to all, that all may form characters for eternal life. An opportunity will be given to all to decide for life or death. Men will be judged according to the measure of light given them. None will be accountable for their darkness and their errors if the light has not been brought to them." {2T 691.1}

* * *

"The Gentiles are to be judged according to the light that is given them, according to the impressions they had received of their Creator in nature. They have reasoning powers, and can distinguish God in his created works. God speaks to all men through his providence in nature. He makes known to all that he is the living God. The Gentiles could reason that the things that are made could not have fallen into exact order, and worked out a designed purpose, without a God who has originated all. They could reason from cause to effect, that it must be that there was a first cause, an intelligent agent, that could be no other than the eternal God. The light of God in nature is shining continually into the darkness of heathenism, but many who see this light do not glorify the Lord as God. They do not permit reason to lead them to acknowledge their creator. They refuse the Lord, and set up senseless idols to adore. They make images which represent God and worship his created works as a partial acknowledgment of him, but they dishonor him in their hearts." {ST August 12, 1889, par. 7}

[Samie]

God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

1.God forgives!

2.Because God forgives, He gave His Son.

3.Now you be reconciled to God. (believe!)

4.As the result of believing, you will overcome evil with good, and, also as a result of believing, your name will not be blotted out of the book of life. 

There goes the twist.  God so loved the world should be #1, NOT God forgives. God loved us BEFORE the foundation of the world, long before there was sin to forgive.

#2 should be, Because God loves, He gave His Son; as in John 3:16.

#3 is not in accord with Rom 5:10 & 2 Cor 5:18

#4 is not accurate because the devils also believe and even tremble (James 2:19), but their names are NOT in the Book of Life.

[8thdaypriest]

I believe you are correct Stan! If I'm not mistaken, it's a EGW statement?

Personally, I believe that the Romans 1 reference has been completely misused. 

"God overlooked" the "times of ignorance".  According to your interpretation THERE WERE no "times of ignorance".  Everyone had enough light for God to judge them. 

Acts 17:30 "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, (Act 17:30 NKJ)

So what was different WHEN Paul wrote these words.  Answer:  Messiah had come.  And they were to preach His story to the "whole world".

I believe that - during those "times of ignorance" - "sins of ignorance" are covered by the blood of Jesus.  Jesus said, "If you were blind (ignorant), you would HAVE NO SIN." 

That being said, I believe sins of ignorance will be "covered" UNTIL the person receives enough information upon which to base either BELIEF in, or rejection of, God. 

And that being said, I believe that all of those who lived during "times of ignorance" (for whatever cause) will be resurrected as "the rest of the dead", to learn of God and His Son, and then to CHOOSE whom they will serve. 

I don't believe "the rest of the dead" will be the wicked from Adam to the SC. 

The wicked will be resurrected, judged, condemned and "left behind" at the SC (Daniel 12:2-3).  Why wake them AGAIN?  To execute them AGAIN? 

There are a whooping lot of prophecies, which describe "the nations" living around Israel - returned to the land, with King David reigning in their midst, and the "House of David" restored in their midst.    Some people from these "nations" "go up to the House of the LORD" to learn "His ways". 

I'll just post one of my favs.

    Isaiah 61:4-9 “And they shall rebuild the old ruins, They shall raise up the former desolations, And they shall repair the ruined cities, The desolations of many generations.  Strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, And the sons of the foreigner Shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.  But you shall be named the priests of the LORD, They shall call you the servants of our God. You shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, And in their glory you shall boast. Instead of your shame you shall have double honor, And instead of confusion they shall rejoice in their portion. Therefore in their land they shall possess double; Everlasting joy shall be theirs.  ‘For I, the LORD, love justice; I hate robbery for burnt offering; I will direct their work in truth, And will make with them an everlasting covenant.  Their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles, And their offspring among the people. All who see them shall acknowledge them, That they are the posterity whom the LORD has blessed.’”

    NOTE: These are Melchizedek priests. These priests are given a “double portion” in the land, and “double honor” - the birthright of the first born.  These CANNOT be Levite priests.  The Levites were given NO inheritance in the land (Num. 18:20-24, Num. 26:62, Deut. 18:2, Josh. 13:33).

[8thdaypriest]

It is NOT JUST to grant eternal life to an infant, and transport him into Heaven - simply because he died as an infant.   Or because his parents were believers - either.  it is manipulation.  If God was going to by-pass our free will, then why didn't He just do that in the first place, and skip this whole mess??

I remember one fellow here said that God "can have a relationship with a 4-celled embryo.  Well - it's also possible to drown in 2 inches of water. 

Jesus said, "You must be born again."  Paul wrote, "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." 

We are "saved by grace through faith" (Eph 2).  Infants cannot BELIEVE.  They cannot respond with understanding to what they HEAR.  

"Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."   (With the help of the Spirit - of course.)  

[8thdaypriest]

Oops!!  Thought this was a different thread.  Sorry!!!