Douglas County Oregon says Obama not welcome there

[joeb]

The families and friends of the victims, the County Commissioners, and the local newspaper all tell Obama NOT to come to Roseberg for the funerals of the victims of the UCC mass shootings.  Why?  Because they greatly object to his politicizing the deaths of their relatives and friends.  I wonder if Obama has enough class to respect their wishes....  I doubt it, but we will see.

[phkrause]

And if he doesn't go, we'll have the others ask why he didn't go!! So we're back to it doesn't matter what he does!! Its not good enough for those that don't like him, etc., etc., etc.!!

[bonnie]

 if he doesn't go, we'll have the others ask why he didn't go!! So we're back to it doesn't matter what he does!! Its not good enough for those that don't like him, etc., etc., etc.!!

It seems to be pretty clear why they don't want him there. 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

what I REALLY don't like is that the baboons from Westboro Baptist Church have announced that they will be picketing the funerals of the Umpqua massacre victims..  

[bonnie]

What possible reason have they dreamed up to picket this time?

[bonnie]

Oregon Shooting Victim’s Family Refusing to Meet With Obama: We Won’t Be Props

07Oct, 2015by Liber-T

 

 

The father of one victim from the shooting in Oregon last week said he and his family will not meet with President Obama

The president has plans to visit the area later this week.

The father is Stacy Boylan. His daughter, Ana Boylan, was a student at Umpqua Community College, where the shooting occurred.

Mr. Boylan appeared on Fox News’ “The Kelly File” last night and wonders about the real reason for Obama’s trip. He said, “I do believe it was Rahm Emmanuel [who] said, ‘Never let a good tragedy go to waste.'”

 

[Boylan] openly questions Obama’s motives for coming to Roseburg — with good reason, considering the president said “we should politicize” shootings such as that which occurred last week.

Ana continues to recover after being shot in the back by the gunman.

…

Boylan, a staunch Second Amendment supporter, went on to say that Obama’s visit “is completely to support his gun control agenda.” He was also highly critical of gun-free zones, saying gunmen target these areas knowing they’re not going to be met with resistance.

“Gun-free zones are a problem, they’re an issue,” he said. “They’re a target for crazy people.”

When asked specifically if he will see Obama on Friday if the president wants to meet with families of the victims, Boylan said he has spoken to his daughter and other family members and they’ve decided that they will not be used as props to support a gun control agenda.

“On principle, I find that I am in disagreement with his policies on gun control, and therefore, we will not be attending the visit,” he replied.

[Naomi]

what I REALLY don't like is that the baboons from Westboro Baptist Church have announced that they will be picketing the funerals of the Umpqua massacre victims..  

If they do that it  is really sick !!!  I just checked their web site and picket schedule and it is not listed.  I pray that if they even considered doing such a horrific act that they have changed their minds.  

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I hope they've changed.  It had been on their page yesterday morning.  I have a feeling the Roseburg loggers would turn them into chickenfeed if they showed up.

[joeb]

And if he doesn't go, we'll have the others ask why he didn't go!! So we're back to it doesn't matter what he does!! Its not good enough for those that don't like him, etc., etc., etc.!!

That's not even the issue.  The issue is, will he respect the victim's families enough to stay away.  Or, will he go there knowing they oppose his politicization of this tragedy?  If he does you will know he has zero respect for the citizens of this country.   He will intrude on their grief and use their grief to his political advantage.  To me, that is scum bag behavior, not presidential behavior. 

[lazarus]

Taking a stand on the issue is worth the ire of the relatives in this city. It's important to work to save the lives of those who might be killed by some gunmen somewhere. The unhealthy gun culture in America is costing more lives than ISIS ever could. ISIS should give up any plans it has for killing Americans. Nothing they could come up with would be as effective as the current gun culture.

To me, that is scum bag behavior, not presidential behavior. 

It is Presidential to stand up for what is right than to cow-tow to destructive elements in the culture.

Edited October 8, 2015 by lazarus

[bonnie]

Perhaps Obama should go to Chicago for his photo op and praise how well the restrictive laws are working.  Maybe there are some there that need the important  work to save the lives of those who might be killed by some gunmen somewhere. 

It isn't even a question of  the ire of the relatives of the dead. Let the dead bury their dead and grieve in peace.He is being asked by those in grief,please leave us alone.

Has as much class as the lunatics from the Westboro church

 

[joeb]

Taking a stand on the issue is worth the ire of the relatives in this city. It's important to work to save the lives of those who might be killed by some gunmen somewhere. The unhealthy gun culture in America is costing more lives than ISIS ever could. ISIS should give up any plans it has for killing Americans. Nothing they could come up with would be as effective as the current gun culture.

It is Presidential to stand up for what is right than to cow-tow to destructive elements in the culture.

I have to shake my head in wonderment every time I see a post like this coming from a professed Christian.  Why?  Because for a Christian to blame guns for murder to ignore the most basic of Christian truths.  Remember, the first murder happened before any kind of weapon was ever invented.  So, murder happens because of sin, not because of guns, or because of weapons of any kind.  To insist on anything else is to ignore truth, and thus promote dishonesty.

Guns have been proven over and over again to be essential to freedom, essential to liberty.  Our founding fathers understood this and that is why they included the right to keep and bear arms in the Constitution.  They wanted the citizens of this country to always have the ability to rebel against tyranny and keep their freedom.  Every time a dictator has wanted to impose a complete dictatorship he has disarmed the citizenry of that country as one of his first steps in consolidating his power.     

The fact that you think a political agenda is more important than the right of people to grieve in peace and not want their loved ones to be props for a political agenda says a lot about you, and none of it is good.  That you claim not only to be an SDA, but a pastor also, says you don't understand anything about the religion you profess to believe in.   You believe in politics before compassion and tyranny over liberty.  If you didn't you could not have said what you did here.

Edited October 8, 2015 by joeb

[JoeMo]

Taking a stand on the issue is worth the ire of the relatives in this city. It's important to work to save the lives of those who might be killed by some gunmen somewhere. The unhealthy gun culture in America is costing more lives than ISIS ever could. ISIS should give up any plans it has for killing Americans. Nothing they could come up with would be as effective as the current gun culture.

It is Presidential to stand up for what is right than to cow-tow to destructive elements in the culture.

O Please Lazarus; get real.  It's a trite saying; but if the government outlaws gun ownership, only the outlaws (and cops) will have guns.  The only way to stop bad guys with guns is for good guys to shoot back (or badder bad guys).  Any attempt to make gun ownership illegal in this country will likely result in armed insurrection.  Cars kill more people in this country than guns.  Should we make cars illegal while we're at it?

Didn't Hitler make gun ownership in Germany illegal just before he launched WW2?

[phkrause]

I haven't heard anyone say anything about outlawing guns!

[CoAspen]

Joe, Joe....

This is pure NRA nonsense....

It's a trite saying; but if the government outlaws gun ownership, only the outlaws (and cops) will have guns. 

 I would not have problem, and it is a free country, living in Great Britain. How has that country managed to survive all these decades with out every Tom, Dick and Harry owning a gun and where even the police use is limited. But they still solve crime by investigating, brain work, etc with limited access to guns. Ah.....your worried about all the CCTV they have, used to solve and prevent crime. Loss of privacy, etc, etc. Well some people would rather have more crime and deaths I reckon.

The only way to stop bad guys with guns is for good guys to shoot back (or badder bad guys). 

Yup, that should be the motto of every Bible thumpin' christian, just like Christ.

[lazarus]

 Because for a Christian to blame guns for murder to ignore the most basic of Christian truths. 

One good way of avoiding issues is to argue against things that have not been said. No one said guns are to blame for murder. The gun culture of America is to blame. The culture is more than the weapon.

Guns have been proven over and over again to be essential to freedom, essential to liberty. 

 I grew up free. Very few people had guns. Even the police didn't have guns. Guns are not essential. Guns are essential for tyranny though.

The fact that you think a political agenda is more important than the right of people to grieve in peace and not want their loved ones to be props for a political agenda says a lot about you, and none of it is good.  That you claim not only to be an SDA, but a pastor also, says you don't understand anything about the religion you profess to believe in.   You believe in politics before compassion and tyranny over liberty.  If you didn't you could not have said what you did here.

Lives are more important than big profits for gun manufacturers. This is the root of it all. Under the illusion of freedom and liberty they are making a killing. Pun intended. The first priority of government is to protect its citizens. 33 citizens die every day due to gun violence. The government is failing in it first duty and clearly conservatives have lost their moral compass on this issue.

That you claim not only to be an SDA, but a pastor also, says you don't understand anything about the religion you profess to believe in.   You believe in politics before compassion and tyranny over liberty.  If you didn't you could not have said what you did here.

This would mean there are millions of SDA's and SDA pastors who don't understanding anything about Adventism. Hyperbolic foolishness!

[lazarus]

 Any attempt to make gun ownership illegal in this country will likely result in armed insurrection. 

Who said make gun ownership illegal? Who is proposing this?

Let me ask you a question?.... Why do think Americans kill each other in such high numbers? No other developed country sees its citizens kill eachother in this way. The U.S. firearm homicide rate is 20 times higher than the combined rates of 22 countries that have similar wealth and population.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

The U.S. firearm homicide rate is 20 times higher than the combined rates of 22 countries that have similar wealth and population.

 

There are no countries who are peers to the United States in both population and wealth, with the possible exception of China, and that's a stretch insofar as population goes.  Also, in the US, raw homicide reports include shootings of self-defense, as well as suicides.

 Aside from that, the other wealthy countries do not have nearly the amount of racial and gang issues, that the US has.  And,  unfortunately, those issues, along with mental health issues, seem to be at the heart of so many murders in the US.

[Naomi]

Thank you rudyroofs ... I just came on to make a similar post ... comparing oranges to apples never quite work

[lazarus]

 

There are no countries who are peers to the United States in both population and wealth, with the possible exception of China, and that's a stretch insofar as population goes.  Also, in the US, raw homicide reports include shootings of self-defense, as well as suicides.

Rudy & Naomi, China most certainly NOT comparable with the USA. It's GDP is about 10% of the USA if I remember rightly. It's population is 4 times larger. The European Union's GDP is almost identical and it's population is 30% larger. It's gun deaths should be greater. Right?

I would agree that gang activity is much higher in the US but not sure if it is significantly higher. Not sure you can prove that issues of race issues are more prevalent here. Europe has a lot of that kind of conflict right now and has been building for years.

Although the US has the highest incidence of mental disorders. The difference is not so dramatic as to account for the significantly higher gun deaths.

Also, in the US, raw homicide reports include shootings of self-defense, as well as suicides.

If the developed countries who counted things differently adopted the US method I doubt there would be a major difference.

Edited October 9, 2015 by lazarus

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Laz, would you specify which are the 22 countries you stated are comparable to the US?  The European Union is not a country.

[lazarus]

Laz, would you specify which are the 22 countries you stated are comparable to the US?  The European Union is not a country.

Included in the study were: Australia, Austria, Canada, Czech Republic, Finland, France, Germany, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Japan, Luxembourg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, Slovakia, Spain, Sweden, United Kingdom (England and Wales), United Kingdom (Northern Ireland), United Kingdom (Scotland) and the United States.

The comparison is not just a numerical one but also with reference to composition.

Here was the methodology:

Total population for the United States for 2003 was 290.8 million; the combined population for the other 22 countries was 563.5 million. There were 29,771 firearm deaths in the United States and 7,653 firearms deaths in the 22 other countries. Thus, among these 23 countries, 80 percent of all firearm deaths occurred in the United States in 2003, and 86 percent of all women killed by firearms were US women, and 87 percent of all children aged 0 to 14 killed by firearms were U.S. children.

Below is a link to the study.

http://www.researchgate.net/publication/44695809_Homicide_Suicide_and_Unintentional_Firearm_Fatality_Comparing_the_United_States_With_Other_High-Income_Countries_2003

Edited October 9, 2015 by lazarus

[Naomi]

words escape me ............ didn't leave out many countries

[JoeMo]

Included in the study were: Australia, Austria, Canada, Czech Republic, Finland, France, Germany, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Japan, Luxembourg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, Slovakia, Spain, Sweden, United Kingdom (England and Wales), United Kingdom (Northern Ireland), United Kingdom (Scotland) and the United States.

In how many of these countries is private gun ownership either prohibited or highly restricted/regulated?  Did anyone ever do a study on killings with knives, machetes, torture,etc.?

I must admit that it's probably easier to own a gun in the U.S. than in most other countries; andI'm imagine it's easier to kill someone with a gun (both physically and emotionally) than it is with a knife or your bare hands (less personal; and the" bravery of being out of range".

At any rate, the U.S. already has so many gun restriction laws that any new laws would likely be redundant.  Why make new laws when we can't even afford to enforce the ones that are already on the books?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Interesting that the non-gun suicide rates in the non-US countries were higher than the US.

I don't know.  Seems like if someone is intent on destroying themselves or others, they will do it by any means they can, be it a gun, a knife, airplanes, poison.  Does the method matter?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  A person who was intentionally killed by violent means is just as dead, no matter which way they were killed.  There is no "solution".... there can only be remedial attempts at curbing the violence.  Education, Mental Health access, and rearing children to have respect for others is imperative.

What good would it do for the government to know who has what guns?  Who is going to check up on everyone who has guns? Who will make sure everyone follows registration laws?  There are MANY weapons that are "lost" in the registration lists.  Who is going to track down where those "lost" weapons are?  Who is going to track the weapons into other countries?  

I'm not interested in the US becoming a "police state" where the government tries to worm itself even more into the private lives of its citizenry.  The only new laws I'd vote for regarding weapons would be for more stringent background checks.  However, that wouldn't help with most shootings, as most get their guns from family members (who usually have no MH issues) or obtain the weapons illegally by stealing them.  Criminals will NOT follow the laws, and the mentally ill have their own internal "laws" that they follow...