Roman Catholicism vs Bible

[8thdaypriest]

The Roman Catholic Church actively worked for more than a thousand years, to keep the Bible away from the people.  They executed translators.  They executed anyone found with the translations.  Church services were performed in Latin, a language only spoken by priests or very wealthy persons.  Let's compare Roman Catholic doctrines and practice with The Bible. 

Each RC doctrine must be answered with a Bible verse. 

I'll start. 

RC doctrine or practice:  Calling the Pope "Holy Father", and all priests "Father"

Answer:  "And call no man your father on the earth: for one is your Father, even he who is in heaven." (Matthew 23:9 ASV)

[Robert]

13 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

RC doctrine or practice:  Calling the Pope "Holy Father", and all priests "Father"

Answer:  "And call no man your father on the earth: for one is your Father, even he who is in heaven." (Matthew 23:9 ASV)

Here Jesus is speaking to the crowds and to his disciples about their spiritual leaders.  Do not call your spiritual leaders, in this case the Scribes and Pharisees, father.  Why?  God is your spiritual father!  But for those "who exalt themselves (they) will be humbled" (verse 12)

[Robert]

We need to take this warning seriously.  Self-exaltation, in the spiritual realm, is warned against; especially in the three angels message:

“Fear God and give Him glory", but "if anyone worships the beast...he  will drink the wine of God's wrath".... Rev 14:7,9,10

Notice the attitude of this beast power:  "For she says in her heart, ‘I sit as a queen and I am not a widow, and will never see mourning.’" (Rev 18:7) 

And notice the response to her self-exaltation:  "To the degree that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, to the same degree give her torment and mourning;  For this reason in one day her plagues will come..."  (verses 7 & 8)

 

[8thdaypriest]

The doctrine which says that Mary the Mother of Jesus was sinless

Answer:  Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (NKJ)

The doctrine that Mary was taken to Heaven after her death, and now intercedes for believers

Answer:  1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, (NIV)

NOTE:  I'm looking for simple Bible here - not an exegesis. 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I hope this doesn't get turned into a Catholic-bashing thread.  The roots of the SDA church isn't without its wrong teachings.  How would we like for Catholics to start pointing out all the mistakes believed and practiced by early (and current) Adventists?  Not much, I suspect.

(I come from this perspective because I have a number of relatives, including two close cousins, who are Catholics priests.  They don't consider themselves to be "God's voice" because their title is "Father Bob", anymore than my SDA brother whose title is "Elder T." considers himself as God's voice.)

**back to topic** .... I guess...  

[Robert]

26 minutes ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

I hope this doesn't get turned into a Catholic-bashing thread.

Call it what you wish, but that in no way should stop our first amendment rights. 

Quote

The roots of the SDA church isn't without its wrong teachings. 

Some would perceive this as SDA-bashing....

[Robert]

1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

The doctrine which says that Mary the Mother of Jesus was sinless

Answer:  Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (NKJ)

The doctrine that Mary was taken to Heaven after her death, and now intercedes for believers

Answer:  1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, (NIV)

NOTE:  I'm looking for simple Bible here - not an exegesis. 

"All" means all....

"One mediator" means "one".

If not then self-exaltation immediately comes into play.... 

 

[8thdaypriest]

1 hour ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

I hope this doesn't get turned into a Catholic-bashing thread.  The roots of the SDA church isn't without its wrong teachings.  How would we like for Catholics to start pointing out all the mistakes believed and practiced by early (and current) Adventists?  Not much, I suspect.

(I come from this perspective because I have a number of relatives, including two close cousins, who are Catholics priests.  They don't consider themselves to be "God's voice" because their title is "Father Bob", anymore than my SDA brother whose title is "Elder T." considers himself as God's voice.)

**back to topic** .... I guess...  

PAM,

It is not my intent to "bash" Catholics.  We should love Catholics - just not Catholic Church doctrine. 

Rather, I believe that most Adventists do not understand Catholic DOCTRINE, and therefore are not prepared to meet it with Bible.

Where I worked for several years, there was an ardent Catholic doctor (one of my bosses).   I actually liked the guy.  He kept it light spirited - for the most part.  He used to ask me questions (always in front of others) seeking to support Catholic doctrine.

One day he asked, "What's wrong with praying to the saints?  Don't you ask others to pray for you?"   Yes, I replied.  I do.  But I always ask people who are still alive.  The Bible absolutely forbids any communication with "the dead".  It was a death penalty offense.  

At this forum we are allowed to question SDA doctrine, even if we are not personally SDA.  Some SDAs get offended, but the moderators here believe that any true doctrine can be defended from the Bible. 

I am looking for short (easily expressed) Bible verse answers to Catholic doctrine.   I'm not interested in Catholic Church history - at least on this thread.

Pam, If most folks are on vacation, and there is not much response to this thread, I will just let it go. . . . .

[8thdaypriest]

I have a friend - recently baptized, who is the first from her large extended family to question Catholic doctrine.  She has a sister who is a nun.  Of course, she is getting pressure.  She says to me over and over, "I need Bible Mrs Rachel."  "I need to answer them with Bible."  She and I have been slowly going over all the Catholic doctrines she learned in her 53 years, comparing them with Scripture.  Fortunately her husband has not been against her new faith.  He can see how happy it has made her - to realize that she is "saved by faith".

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I just wanted to state my hope that the thread would *not* turn into a Catholic-bashing thread.  I didn't even infer that it had already happened.  Of course, it's appropriate to question various doctrines of *all* faiths, including Catholicism, as well as Adventism..

[Stan]

We did have a nice thread going here at one time on SOP wisdom on dealing with Catholics...  did not involve bashing, but rather pointing out what was wright rather than what was wrong...

 

Would like someone to find that...

[8thdaypriest]

In the current politically correct climate, accusations of "bashing", or homo-phobe, or Islam-a-phobe are used to silence those who would teach from the Bible.  What if Martin Luther had never "bashed" the practices of the Roman Church. 

[8thdaypriest]

Does anyone have a good answer for confession to a RC priest, who then absolves one of sin?  I believe the RCC points to Old Testament priests, who heard the confessions of sinners (over the heads of the animals they brought for sin offerings).  The LORD even said the priest "shall make atonement for him".   Is "atonement" the same as "absolution"?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Quote

Regarding the Catholics—Brethren, I feel hurt when I see that so many decided thrusts are made against the Catholics. Preach the truth, but restrain the words which show a harsh spirit; for such words cannot help or enlighten anyone. The Echo is a paper that should be circulated largely. Do not do anything that would hinder its sale. There is no reason why it should not be as a light shining in a dark place. But for Christ’s sake heed the admonitions which have been given in regard to making scathing remarks about the Catholics. Many Catholics read the Echo, and among the number there are honest souls who will accept the truth. But there is such a thing as shutting the door in their faces as they are about to enter.

White, E. G. (1946). Counsels to Writers and Editors (pp. 64–65). Southern Publishing Association.

No Condemnatory Articles—The light which I have to give to our people is, Let no condemnatory speeches be printed in our papers. A large number of precious souls are groping in darkness, yet longing and weeping and praying for light. Thus it is in churches everywhere.—Manuscript 46, 1900.
No Gall.—Every article you write may be all truth, but one drop of gall in it will be poison to the reader. One reader will discard all your good and acceptable words because of that drop of poison. Another will feed on the poison, for he loves such harsh words.—Letter 91, 1899.

 

[Robert]

2 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Does anyone have a good answer for confession to a RC priest, who then absolves one of sin?  I believe the RCC points to Old Testament priests, who heard the confessions of sinners (over the heads of the animals they brought for sin offerings).  The LORD even said the priest "shall make atonement for him".   Is "atonement" the same as "absolution"?

Lev 4:29 "He (the transgressor)  shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering, and kill the sin offering at the place of the burnt offering. 30 Then the priest shall take some of its blood with his finger, put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and pour all the remaining blood at the base of the altar. 31 He shall remove all its fat, as fat is removed from the sacrifice of the peace offering; and the priest shall burn it on the altar for a sweet aroma to the Lord. So the priest shall make atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.

Hebrews 10:11 "And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man (Christ, our High Priest), after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God"

In Old Testament times God forgave out of His forbearance.  See Rom 3:25

[Robert]

43 minutes ago, Robert said:

Lev 4:29 "He (the transgressor)  shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering, and kill the sin offering at the place of the burnt offering. 30 Then the priest shall take some of its blood with his finger, put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and pour all the remaining blood at the base of the altar. 31 He shall remove all its fat, as fat is removed from the sacrifice of the peace offering; and the priest shall burn it on the altar for a sweet aroma to the Lord. So the priest shall make atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.

Hebrews 10:11 "And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man (Christ, our High Priest), after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God"

In Old Testament times God forgave out of His forbearance.  See Rom 3:25

 Did God forgive sin? (Jack is referring to OT times)  The answer is yes.  Could He forgive sin in a just way?  The answer is no, He forgave it out of His forbearance, out of His patience, out of kindness, but not out of justice, because His own law says there can be no forgiveness without the shedding of blood and the shedding of the blood of bulls and goats and lambs could not do that legally and that’s what the book of Hebrews brings out, chapter 9 and 10 especially. [Jack S.]

[Robert]

3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

In the current politically correct climate, accusations of "bashing", or homo-phobe, or Islam-a-phobe are used to silence those who would teach from the Bible.  What if Martin Luther had never "bashed" the practices of the Roman Church. 

Ellen White has some strong statements herself against the Papacy, but that's another subject...

[8thdaypriest]

7 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Does anyone have a good answer for confession to a RC priest, who then absolves one of sin?  I believe the RCC points to Old Testament priests, who heard the confessions of sinners (over the heads of the animals they brought for sin offerings).  The LORD even said the priest "shall make atonement for him".   Is "atonement" the same as "absolution"?

James 5:16 "Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed."  (NKJ)

[Robert]

8 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

James 5:16 "Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed."  (NKJ)

But it doesn't say "confess to a priest".

Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 4 And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.”

We are to admit sin to the person we have sinned against, but that person cannot legally forgive sin.  Only God can forgive sin.

Case in point:  Let's say my agnostic friend does me wrong.  Later he apologizes (repents). Does my acceptance of his apology him make him guiltless before God?  No, only God can legally forgive sin.

[Robert]

8 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

James 5:16 "Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed."  (NKJ)

Here's a better one:  John 20:21 So Jesus said to them (the disciples) again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Matt 16:17 Jesus answered and said to him (Peter) “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

The RCC claims that Peter was the first Pope and that Christ gave him all authority over the church.  Whatever Peter, the rock, decided on faith & morals on earth would be bound in heaven.  So Peter, as the head, and the other disciples could forgive sin.

 

[Robert]

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=551qvxxFInQ

 

[Robert]

Keys of the kingdom:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/files/u58638/Vatican4.png

"The keys refer to the promise of Christ to Peter, "I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven."[28] They are a symbol of the power the Catholic Church believes that Christ gave to Saint Peter and his successors,[29] with the gold key signifying that the power reaches to heaven and the silver key that it extends to all the faithful on earth, the interlacing indicating the linking between the two aspects of the power, and the handles of the key being at the base to symbolize the power being in the hands of the pope.[19]" Wikipedia

[phkrause]

15 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

James 5:16 "Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed."  (NKJ)

Yes, but it doesn't say to go to so and so and confess to him or her, for what you did to so and so. You still need to confess to Jesus not some person who has nothing to do with what was done! In my way of thinking, if I did something to you, lets say, I not only confess to Jesus, but I need to go to you and say I'm sorry! Even if you don't forgive me, Jesus will!

[8thdaypriest]

On 8/13/2016 at 7:20 AM, Robert said:

Here's a better one:  John 20:21 So Jesus said to them (the disciples) again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Matt 16:17 Jesus answered and said to him (Peter) “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

The RCC claims that Peter was the first Pope and that Christ gave him all authority over the church.  Whatever Peter, the rock, decided on faith & morals on earth would be bound in heaven.  So Peter, as the head, and the other disciples could forgive sin.

 

Hmmmm.  Makes you wonder - if Peter was infallible like later Popes - how Paul could rebuke him to his face.

[8thdaypriest]

The Rosary of Mary begins with the "Sign of the Cross" and the "Apostle's Creed".  It ends with the "Hail Holy Queen" prayer.  It has beads for 6 "Our Father" prayers, and 53 "Holy Mary" prayers, and 5 "Fatima" prayers.

Repeating the prayers of the Rosary is often assigned as "penance" by the priest to whom confession was made.

BIBLE:  "And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words" (Matthew 6:7 NKJ).