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Samie

Another Missing Verse?

43 posts in this topic
1 minute ago, Samie said:

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will

Good point, Samie.  I can't argue with scripture. we may be predestined (i.e., God's destiny for us is) for adoption; but we must choose to join the family.  If we don't want to be part of the family; God will not force us into His Kingdom kicking and screaming.

My child was predestined to be my heir; but if that child refuses to accept my legacy, he/she loses it.  If I, as God's rebellious son, refuse to join His family, He lets me go away.  It's my free-will decision to accept His salvation or reject it. Our adoption is NOT unconditional.

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19 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Good point, Samie.  I can't argue with scripture. we may be predestined (i.e., God's destiny for us is) for adoption; but we must choose to join the family.  If we don't want to be part of the family; God will not force us into His Kingdom kicking and screaming.

My child was predestined to be my heir; but if that child refuses to accept my legacy, he/she loses it.  If I, as God's rebellious son, refuse to join His family, He lets me go away.  It's my free-will decision to accept His salvation or reject it. Our adoption is NOT unconditional.

Your child did not choose to be your child, did he?  But he can choose NOT to be your heir.

Same with us. We did not choose to be God's children.  We were born already in Christ. But we can choose NOT to be heirs with Christ.  How?  By not repenting, that is, NOT overcoming evil with good. 

Overcomers will Christ not blot out from the book of life and will be seated with Him in His throne even as He also overcame and sat down with the Father in His throne (Rev 3:5, 21).  All not blotted out will have their portion in the heavenly portals (Rev 21:27); all blotted out will have their portion in the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).

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Greetings again Samie,

 

13 hours ago, Samie said:

However, I can't read the verse as saying we become in Christ by believing, does it?  Instead it says, as Tyndale would have it:

     TNT Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the sonnes of God by the fayth which is in Christ Iesus.

It's the faith of the son of God that made us children of God, NOT our belief in Him.  Believing in Christ is only possible when one is already in Him Who EXPLICITLY said apart from Him man can do NOTHING - he can't even believe. 

I appreciate your response, but I do not see much difference to our believing in Christ, and us having the faith of Christ. Possibly I am a little confused as to your overall position. Perhaps you will allow me to state how I read Galatians 3, and then let you tell me where I am going wrong.

 

Galatians 3 speaks concerning the promises to Abraham and who will be heirs of these promises. Looking at one of these promises, the promise to Abraham concerning the land, we have the following:

Genesis 13:14-15 (KJV): 14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: 15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

Now this promise is set in a context. Abraham had already been told in Genesis 12:7 that his seed would inherit the land. But here the context is the problem with Lot’s herdsmen and the choice that Lot had made. Lot chose the “best” or most fertile part of the land. Abraham had trusted in God, in patient waiting, and then God gave him the promise of the land. Notice each part of v15, it is all the land that he could see, north, south, east and west, and the land was to be given to both Abraham and his seed, and not for a short duration, but for ever. Now Abraham believed what God had spoken.

 

Now we have to determine when Abraham would receive this land, and who is the seed mentioned. Paul clearly teaches who is the seed of Genesis 13:15:

Galatians 3:16 (KJV): Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

So the seed of Genesis 13:15 is Christ and this helps us to determine the term “for ever”. Jesus was not to receive the land for a short time, neither was Abraham. Both were to receive the land for ever, and in the case of Abraham, he never received his inheritance of the land in his life time, but he must be resurrected to receive this land for ever.

 

Now here is a promise that Jesus was to receive the land for ever. Are all mankind included in this promise. Are the Canaanites of the time of Abraham included? Are the Canaanites in the time of Joshua included? And in the context of Galatians 3 are all the physical descendants of Abraham, the Jews and Judaisers who were preaching the necessity of keeping the Law and circumcision, are they included in this promise to Abraham? No it is those who have the faith of Abraham, and the faith of Christ, who have believed in Jesus and in the promises, those who have “put on Christ”, being clothed with his faith, his righteousness, by faith and baptism.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

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10 hours ago, TrevorL said:

I appreciate your response, but I do not see much difference to our believing in Christ, and us having the faith of Christ.

For me, there is much difference. To have the faith of Christ comes BEFORE one can believe in Christ.  Faith is needed to believe, hence, when one has no faith, he can never believe.

On the other hand, if the BTBIC doctrine (Believe To Be In Christ doctrine) is true, that is, one must first believe so he can be in Christ, then he can NEVER be in Christ. Here's why:

If one is not in Christ he cannot bear fruit because only those in Christ can bear fruit (John 15:4, 5).  If he cannot bear fruit, he cannot have faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22).  If he can not have faith, he can not believe because faith is needed to believe (Heb 11:6).  Therefore if one is not in Christ, he can never bear fruit, can never have faith, can never believe, and can never be in Christ according to the BTBIC doctrine.

No wonder, it seems, there is no verse in the Bible that simply hints people need to first believe before they can be in Christ.

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Greetings again Samie, 

14 hours ago, Samie said:

For me, there is much difference. To have the faith of Christ comes BEFORE one can believe in Christ.

This seems to be directly opposite to my understanding. If we are brought up in a Godly environment, or later come in contact with the Bible and its message, we gradually learn aspects of Christ and start to believe in him. When our faith has grown we reach the stage where we understand the gospel in its simplicity and beauty and we affectionately believe and espouse this and we are motivated to be baptised into Christ. This stage of growth could be considered to be accepting “the Faith of Christ”.

 

But this term can also represent the fullness, the purity, the perfect moral character, the beauty of character, the wisdom hidden and  revealed, the complete trust that the Son of God had in God, His Father. This is “the Faith of Christ” that endured the suffering of the crucifixion and death, and resulted in victory over sin in Himself and on behalf of all others. When we believe and are baptised we identify with this saving faith revealed in Jesus, and only then are we “in Christ”.

 

Yes, we do seem to preach a different gospel.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

 

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7 hours ago, TrevorL said:

This seems to be directly opposite to my understanding. If we are brought up in a Godly environment, or later come in contact with the Bible and its message, we gradually learn aspects of Christ and start to believe in him.

Did your son become your child only when he believed you are his father?

Just because your new born kid does not know you are his father does not mean he is not your child and not a member of your family.  As he grows up, little by little he comes to the realization that you are his father.  But he already was your son and a member of your family long before he believed you are his father.

So with us; born already in Christ, we start as babes in Christ.  And then we grow up and believe in Him.

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On 12/02/2017 at 1:10 PM, TrevorL said:

When we believe and are baptised we identify with this saving faith revealed in Jesus, and only then are we “in Christ”.

Sadly, no Bible verse backs this up, is there? If there is, what verse?

Anyone else willing to take up the cudgels for BTBIC (Believe To Be In Christ) doctrine?

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Greetings again Samie,

11 hours ago, Samie said:

Sadly, no Bible verse backs this up, is there? If there is, what verse?

To repeat the quotation that I started with, and adding some emphasis:

Galatians 3:26-29 (KJV): 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Emphasising some of the words again: faith in Christ Jesus, baptized into Christ, put on Christ, one in Christ, if ye be Christ’s, then, heirs.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

 

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46 minutes ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again Samie,

To repeat the quotation that I started with, and adding some emphasis:

Galatians 3:26-29 (KJV): 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Emphasising some of the words again: faith in Christ Jesus, baptized into Christ, put on Christ, one in Christ, if ye be Christ’s, then, heirs.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

 

Hi Trevor,

No other verses to offer?  We have already addressed the verses you quoted.  I have then told you that if your reading of those verses was what Paul really intended then the apostle contradicted himself when he identified himself with the Athenian unbelievers as being offspring or children of God (Acts 17:29).  Either way, if your contention is true then Paul either lied to the Athenian unbelievers or to the Galatian believers.  But Paul is not a liar.

You then countered by saying that to have the faith of Christ is the same with having faith in Christ.  But I have shown you it is not, based on Christ's statement Himself.  Having the faith of Christ comes BEFORE believing or having faith in Him because believing is EXERCISING faith.  You cannot believe in Christ without first having the faith of the Son of God.

Again,

If one is not in Christ he cannot bear fruit because only those in Christ can bear fruit (John 15:4, 5).  If he cannot bear fruit, he cannot have faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22).  If he can not have faith, he can not believe because faith is needed to believe (Heb 11:6).  Therefore if one is not in Christ, he can never bear fruit, can never have faith, can never believe, and can never be in Christ according to the BTBIC (Believe To Be In Christ) doctrine. 

Any rebuttal to offer in this regard?

 

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Greetings again Samie,

3 hours ago, Samie said:

No other verses to offer?  We have already addressed the verses you quoted.  I have then told you that if your reading of those verses was what Paul really intended then the apostle contradicted himself when he identified himself with the Athenian unbelievers as being offspring or children of God (Acts 17:29).  Either way, if your contention is true then Paul either lied to the Athenian unbelievers or to the Galatian believers.  But Paul is not a liar.

But as you state the Athenians were unbelievers and you somehow equate this with the believers of Galatians 3. The Athenians were children in a physical sense in that God had given them life and breath. Those in Galatians 3 were children in a spiritual sense in that they had come into Christ through faith after the preaching of the gospel. You are using a faulty syllogism.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

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9 minutes ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again Samie,

But as you state the Athenians were unbelievers and you somehow equate this with the believers of Galatians 3. The Athenians were children in a physical sense in that God had given them life and breath. Those in Galatians 3 were children in a spiritual sense in that they had come into Christ through faith after the preaching of the gospel.

Both Athenians and the Galatians were children in a physical sense.  And in a spiritual sense as well.  The word "offspring" used by Paul in Acts 17:29 is from the Greek word ge,noj (genos), the same word used for chosen "generation" in 1 Pet 2:9, which is clearly a spiritual application.  Further proves, that both Galatian believers and Athenian unbelievers are "offsprings" of God, both physically and spiritually.

Also, if your reading of Gal 3:26-29 is what Paul actually intended then he contradicted himself in his definition of the Church, the Body of Christ (Eph 5:23; Col 1:18).

1.  The apostle defined the Church as composed of those for whom Christ died: Acts 20:28

2.  He then tells us Christ died for all: 2 Cor 5:14, 15

3.  And Scriptures tell us Christ died for every man: Heb 2:9

Therefore, all men are members of the Church - the Body of Christ, UNTIL & UNLESS Christ blots out one's name from the book of life for NOT overcoming evil with good.  Overcomers will not be blotted out and will be seated with Christ in His throne even as He also overcame and sat down with the Father in His throne (Rev 3:5, 21).

Again,

If one is not in Christ he cannot bear fruit because only those in Christ can bear fruit (John 15:4, 5).  If he cannot bear fruit, he cannot have faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22).  If he can not have faith, he can not believe because faith is needed to believe (Heb 11:6).  Therefore if one is not in Christ, he can never bear fruit, can never have faith, can never believe, and can never be in Christ as per the BTBIC (Believe To Be In Christ) doctrine, a doctrine you uphold and teach.

Any rebuttal?

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4 hours ago, Samie said:

I have then told you that if your reading of those verses was what Paul really intended then the apostle contradicted himself when he identified himself with the Athenian unbelievers as being offspring or children of God (Acts 17:29).  Either way, if your contention is true then Paul either lied to the Athenian unbelievers or to the Galatian believers.  But Paul is not a liar.

But he is an offspring of the children of God either way!! First as a Jew and/or Israelite and second as a true believer of God!!

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6 minutes ago, phkrause said:

But he is an offspring of the children of God either way!! First as a Jew and/or Israelite and second as a true believer of God!!

If it were true that unless a person believes he could not be in Christ, then he NEVER will be:

If one is not in Christ he cannot bear fruit because only those in Christ can bear fruit (John 15:4, 5).  If he cannot bear fruit, he cannot have faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22).  If he can not have faith, he can not believe because faith is needed to believe (Heb 11:6).  Therefore if one is not in Christ, he can never bear fruit, can never have faith, can never believe, and can never be in Christ as per the BTBIC (Believe To Be In Christ) doctrine, a doctrine many preachers uphold and teach.

But here is good news; a better one, and Scriptural, too:  All people are born in Christ.

All are born in Christ because God implemented the plan of salvation He devised before the foundation of the world and saved Adam through Christ that same day he fell into sin, an act that cost the Father His only begotten Son - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.  With Adam in Christ, all his descendants are born in Christ!

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3 hours ago, Samie said:

No one recalls a verse hinting people need to first believe to be in Christ?

How about John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." Pretty easy to infer that whoever doesn't believe doesn't have eternal life.

How about Hebrews 10:39: "But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved."  Pretty easy to infer that one must have faith in Christ before they are saved; since faith is mentioned first in the verse.

How about Romans 3:22: "This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe".  Pretty easy to infer that faith is a prerequisite for righteousness.

I'm confident that you will find some way to explain this away.

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51 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

I'm confident that you will find some way to explain this away.

You are right. Actually I have already made mention of that in the OP:

On 29/01/2017 at 4:25 AM, Samie said:

We are a Bible-believing people and tell the world all our doctrines are supported by the Bible.  So, is there anyone who knows of such a verse?  Yes, there are lots of verses on "believe to be saved", "believe to have everlasting life" or "believe to receive eternal life".  But is there even one that gives any hint on "believe to be in Christ"?  Because if there's none, why do we preach it?

John 3:16 and Heb 10:39 are verses related to what I highlighted in the quote above.  Can you recall any verse on "believe to be in Christ"?

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16 hours ago, Samie said:

You are right. Actually I have already made mention of that in the OP:

John 3:16 and Heb 10:39 are verses related to what I highlighted in the quote above.  Can you recall any verse on "believe to be in Christ"?

If being "in Christ" does NOT mean that one is "saved", or has everlasting life, or will "receive eternal life" then what good is it?

 

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22 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

If being "in Christ" does NOT mean that one is "saved", or has everlasting life, or will "receive eternal life" then what good is it?

To be in Christ, to have everlasting life, or to receive life eternal, are all being saved. 

Being "in Christ" comes first and foremost.  It means one is made part of the Body of Christ; this is the past tense of the 3 tenses salvation.  This is all God's work FOR man, when He implemented the plan of salvation He devised before the foundation of the world and saved Adam through Christ the same day he fell into sin, an act that cost the Father His only begotten Son - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.  With Adam in Christ, all his descendants are born in Christ.  Our being in Christ is all because of grace, NOT an iota of human participation.

If one is born into this world not yet in Christ, then he can NEVER believe in Christ:  If one is NOT in Christ, he cannot bear fruit because only those in Christ can bear fruit (John 15:4, 5). If he cannot bear fruit, then he cannot have faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22).  If he cannot have faith, then he cannot believe because faith is needed to believe (Heb 11:6).  Hence, to believe to be in Christ is a faulty doctrine.  No wonder there is no verse in the Bible that simply hints at it.

If the object of believing is to be in Christ, it is faulty.  But if the object of believing is to have or receive everlasting life, then it is a "thus saith the Lord".  We are all enjoined to overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21) and believing is overcoming the evil of unbelief. Overcomers will Christ not blot out from the book of life and will be seated with Him in His throne even as He also overcame and sat down with the Father in His throne (Rev 3:5, 21).  All NOT blotted out will have their portion in the heavenly portals (Rev 21:27); all blotted out will have their portion in the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).

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