CoAspen

Unity, another view

61 posts in this topic
7 minutes ago, Gary K said:

Actually, that is existentialism. 

Not really, it's human nature.  Throughout the history of Christianity (and other world religions) folks have been at different places on their road to salvation.  Some went further than others (prophets, kings, saints) than others.  If, for example, you have never had a drinking or drug problem, God isn't going to have to spend much time with you on that; he will convict you in areas where you do have problems.  If I, on the other hand, have a problem with drugs and alcohol, God will definitely make that an issue with me while He may not make an issue with me over His issues with you.  We are all different; so God relates to us differently.

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Actually, that is existentialism.

Incorrect again! You ignore the rest of my comment. We are all formed by our own experience in life, to deny such is ignorance of all that surrounds us. Are you saying that we all have to arrive at the same interpretation of the Bible as you or others do? Is your relationship with others and God the same as everyone else? Do you believe we all will have the same understanding of God and His words at the second coming?

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Gary, it is your understanding that you equate with the word of God.l

God's word is true and accurate.

Yours may not be.

 

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Lets look at Christian existentialism.

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The Bible

Christian Existentialism often refers to what it calls the indirect style of Christ's teachings, which it considers to be a distinctiveand important aspect of his ministryChrist's point, it says, is often left unsaid in any particular parable or saying, to permit each individual to confront the truth on his own.[5] This is particularly evident in (but is certainly not limited to) his parablesFor example, in the Gospel of Matthew (Matthew 18:21-35), Jesus tells a story about a man who is heavily in debt (the parable of the unforgiving servant). The debtor and his family are about to be sold into slavery, but he pleads for their lives. His master accordinglycancels the debt and sets them free. Later the man who was in debt abuses some people who owe him money, and he has them thrown in jail. Upon being informed of what this man has done, the master brings him in and says, "Why are you doing this? Weren't your debts canceled?" Then the debtor is thrown into jail until the debt is paid. Jesus ends his story by saying, "This is how it will be for you if you do not forgive your brother from your heart."

Often Christ's parables are a response to a question he is asked. After he tells the parable, he returns the question to the individualwho originally asked it. Often we see a person asking a speculative question involving one's duty before God, and Christ's response is more or less the same question—but as God would ask that individual. For example, in the Gospel of Luke (Luke 10:25), a teacher of the law asks Jesus what it means to love one's neighbor as oneself. Jesus replies by telling the story of the Good Samaritan. In the story a man is beaten by thieves. A priest and a Levite pass him by, but a Samaritan takes pity on him and generously sets him up at an inn—paying his tab in advance. Then Jesus returns the question, "Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the manwho fell into the hands of robbers?". Jesus does not answer the question because he requires the individual to answer it, and thus to understand existence in the Bible, one must recognize who that passage is speaking to in particular. To Kierkegaard, it is the individual hearing the passage.

A good example of indirect communication in the Old Testament is the story of David and Nathan in 2 Samuel 12:1-14David had committed adultery with a woman, Bathshebawhich resulted in her pregnancy. He then ordered her husband, Uriah, to come home from a war front so that he might sleep with his wife, thus making it appear as if Uriah had in fact conceived with Bathsheba. Instead, Uriah would not break faith with his fellow soldiers still on the battlefield and refused to sleep with her. David then ordered him back out to the battlefront where he would surely die, thus making Bathsheba a widow and available for marriage, which David soon arranged. David initially thought he had gotten away with murder, until Nathan arrived to tell him a story about two men, one rich and the other poor. The poor man was a shepherd with only one lamb, which he raised with his family. The lamb ate at his table and slept in his arms. One day a traveler came to visit the rich man; instead of taking one of his own sheep, the richman seized the ewe lamb that belonged to the poor man and prepared it for his guest. When Nathan finished his story, David burned with anger and said (among other things): "As surely as the Lord lives, the man who did this deserves to die!". Nathan responded by saying "You are the man!". Realizing his guiltDavid becomes filled with terror and remorse, tearfully repented of hisevil deed.

An existential reading of the Bible demands that the reader recognize that he is an existing subject, studying the words that God communicates to him personally. This is in contrast to looking at a collection of "truths" which are outside and unrelated to the reader.[6] Such a reader is not obligated to follow the commandments as if an external agent is forcing them upon him, but as though they are inside him and guiding him internally. This is the task Kierkegaard takes up when he asks: "Who has the more difficult task: the teacher who lectures on earnest things a meteor's distance from everyday life, or the learner who should put it to use?"[7] Existentially speaking, the Bible doesn't become an authority in a person's life until they permit the Bible to be their personal authority.

So perhaps this the type being referred too? If so, than I could be called an existentialist, a good thing I believe.

(The above is from a larger article in Wikipedia.)

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Hey guys,

Here is the basic idea of existentialism as coming from the dictionary.

Quote


The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 (gcide)
existentialism ex`is*ten"tial*ism, n. (Philosophy)
   a philosophical theory or attitude having various
   interpretations, generally emphasising the existence of the
   individual as a unique agent with free will and
   responsibility for his or her own acts, though living in a
   universe devoid of any certain knowledge of right and wrong;

   from one's plight as a free agent with uncertain guidelines
   may arise feelings of anguish. Existentialism is concerned
   more with concrete existence rather than abstract theories of
   essences; is contrasted with rationalism and empiricism;
   and is associated with Kierkegaard, Heidegger and Sartre, as
   well as others.
   [PJC]


WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006) (wn)
existentialism
    n 1: (philosophy) a 20th-century philosophical movement chiefly
         in Europe; assumes that people are entirely free and thus
         responsible for what they make of themselves [syn:
         existentialism, existential philosophy, existentialist
         philosophy]

 

Notice what I bolded.  The individual is the one to decide what is right and what is wrong in a universe that is uncertain by looking to himself.  That is the essence of existentialism.    Our world has accepted it to a large degree.  You know, things like: everyone has their own truth, find what is true for you.  We see these ideas put forth on a daily basis in all types of media.  It is so commonly expressed that most people who think that way really do not understand the underlying philosophy that they have accepted.  It comes from Greek thought, and Greek ideas and style of thinking is a major part of what led the Jews to reject Christ.

The Christian does not believe the world is uncertain.  We believe all good emanates from God.  Therefore we compare our selves, our ideas, our thoughts, with what God has revealed and thus can know where we are in relation to God.  We do not look at current culture, ideas that originate from this world, the current thinking of the world, or anything like that for we know that changes constantly.  There is no stability in that and truth is eternal.  It does not change.  We look to God and His word for reality.  He is the same at all times and in all places.  He is what is objective rather than subjective as are culture, human inspired ideas, human spiritual knowledge, and whatever else springs the sources on this earth.

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You are not on the same page as the rest of us. There are different facets/meanings/types of existentialism. What we are speaking of is not what you are attempting to atrtribute to us. Period.

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On 2/13/2017 at 1:53 PM, CoAspen said:

 

 

 

You are not on the same page as the rest of us. There are different facets/meanings/types of existentialism. What we are speaking of is not what you are attempting to atrtribute to us. Period.


We aren't on the same page?  [sarcasm] I would never have guessed it. [/sarcasm]  Too bad the dictionary makes it quite clear what the essence of existentialism actually is. 

I haven't seen a single person on this thread, other than myself, turn to the scriptures for support for their position.  Why is that?  To me it says scripture is not the basis for your position.  Thus, I can only assume you have looked at what scripture says on the subject and rejected it in favor of other ideas, or, you have not even studied scripture to find out what it says on the matter.

Funny how if there is unity here it does not appear in beliefs.  As what a person believes is the foundation for their actions how can there be unity of action on anything?  Every one is walking in separate directions.  What is the only thing that can unite us?  Unifying around God's position in the Bible.  That places us in unity of belief and unity of action.  Nothing else will do that.

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18 minutes ago, CoAspen said:

Everyone is entitled to their opinion!!:flower:

Well, clearly state your opinion.  Are you and I unified?  Do we walk together in the same direction?  Do we pull in the same direction towards the same goals?  Do we even see the Bible alike?  Do we place the same importance to scriptures? 

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2 minutes ago, Gary K said:

Are you and I unified?  Do we walk together in the same direction? 

I'll answer you question with a few questions of my own.  Do you unconditionally accept that Yeshua Messiach is the exact emage of His Father; and that by His grace and ONLY by His grace that we can obtain eternal life?  Are we striving to show God to everyone around us?  Even though we still sin (at least I do), do we now loathe our sin rather than embrace it?  Are we looking forward to being changed in an instant to incorruptible so we can live in the Kingdom forever with the Law written on our heart?  Then we walk in the same direction.  If we desire to get together and I choose to take I-90 over to I-35 and then south to Houston (I'm not equating Houston with heaven :scared:), and you choose to take I-25 down to I-10 and then east to Houston, aren't we more or less going in the same direction (at least heading for the same destination)?  If I start in Seattle and you start in Miami to go to Houston, are we going in the same "direction" (to Houston)?  We are unified.  We may not go the exact same route, but we have the same goal. We're seeking a relationship.  We can be close friends without agreeing on absolutely everything.

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there seems to be a real struggle on the part of some to accept diversity and allow wide ranges of individuality, variations of mind, and experiences, and stages in the growth of our faith.

and we do have stages.... we are developing children. and we can get stuck, but thank God Jesus is our everything at every step of our growth.

we grow from faith to faith and from glory to glory.

remember Elijah who walked so close to God,  through whom the Word of the Lord came to the land and to the king, and through whom word of the Lord gave the widow the bottomless bottle of oil, and the widow whose oil and flour jars never failed till the rain came... this man's trust in God was not complete, he had another stage of growth, and he hit rock bottom and distrusted God and wanted to die.  And the Lord came to him and amended his heart and he made those final steps in faith and then was ready to ascend to heaven in the fiery chariot.

If we can just get a glimpse of how the Lord loves us deeply and works with us as individuals giving to each one a completely unique experience without at any time ceasing to be the unchanging eternal God who hated sin to death literally and loves us to life literally i think we could afford to be less critical and judgmental and fearful.  We are saved individually and loved as if we were the only human being in the whole world.  We can be united in worship and praise to our God and remain who we are without compromising anyone's unique relationship to God.

if your experience was enough for me then i would not need my own experience.  we need to have our own experience... no one else's experience will do for any of us.  And when he brings us closer to him we will unavoidably come closer to one another without offending or criticizing, or excluding.

Jesus is our unity.  Apart from Him we have no unity.  so "when we walk in the light as He is in the light we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ His son cleanses us from all sin".    I am certain in heaven we will be complete individuals who shine with the light of Jesus. it is sin that causes disunity, and there all sin will be gone.

individuality is not sin.

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26 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

I'll answer you question with a few questions of my own.  Do you unconditionally accept that Yeshua Messiach is the exact emage of His Father; and that by His grace and ONLY by His grace that we can obtain eternal life?  Are we striving to show God to everyone around us?  Even though we still sin (at least I do), do we now loathe our sin rather than embrace it?  Are we looking forward to being changed in an instant to incorruptible so we can live in the Kingdom forever with the Law written on our heart?  Then we walk in the same direction.  If we desire to get together and I choose to take I-90 over to I-35 and then south to Houston (I'm not equating Houston with heaven :scared:), and you choose to take I-25 down to I-10 and then east to Houston, aren't we more or less going in the same direction (at least heading for the same destination)?  If I start in Seattle and you start in Miami to go to Houston, are we going in the same "direction" (to Houston)?  We are unified.  We may not go the exact same route, but we have the same goal. We're seeking a relationship.  We can be close friends without agreeing on absolutely everything.

We are agreed on most of that, but I want God's law written in my heart in the here and now.  Paul says this happens when he said that when the Gentile obeys the law without seeking it out as the Jews did that they show the evidence of God's law being written in their hearts.  I believe if we are waiting for heaven to be changed into God's image we will be waiting too long.  I love Jeremiah 30:18:22.  We will throw away our idols like a menstrous cloth when we surrender out hearts to God. 

If we have do the above we will seek to find ways to agree.  We will study and pray together so that we can come to a common understanding for if we are becoming one with the Father we will become one with each other for God will lead us to the same understandings.  I agree that we all start in different places.  The pit of miry clay that God had to lift me out of was pretty sick.  However, we all have to take that same narrow path to heaven.  There is no other way there. 

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4 minutes ago, debbym said:

there seems to be a real struggle on the part of some to accept diversity and allow wide ranges of individuality, variations of mind, and experiences, and stages in the growth of our faith.

and we do have stages.... we are developing children. and we can get stuck, but thank God Jesus is our everything at every step of our growth.

we grow from faith to faith and from glory to glory.

remember Elijah who walked so close to God,  through whom the Word of the Lord came to the land and to the king, and through whom word of the Lord gave the widow the bottomless bottle of oil, and the widow whose oil and flour jars never failed till the rain came... this man's trust in God was not complete, he had another stage of growth, and he hit rock bottom and distrusted God and wanted to die.  And the Lord came to him and amended his heart and he made those final steps in faith and then was ready to ascend to heaven in the fiery chariot.

If we can just get a glimpse of how the Lord loves us deeply and works with us as individuals giving to each one a completely unique experience without at any time ceasing to be the unchanging eternal God who hated sin to death literally and loves us to life literally i think we could afford to be less critical and judgmental and fearful.  We are saved individually and loved as if we were the only human being in the whole world.  We can be united in worship and praise to our God and remain who we are without compromising anyone's unique relationship to God.

if your experience was enough for me then i would not need my own experience.  we need to have our own experience... no one else's experience will do for any of us.  And when he brings us closer to him we will unavoidably come closer to one another without offending or criticizing, or excluding.

Jesus is our unity.  Apart from Him we have no unity.  so "when we walk in the light as He is in the light we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ His son cleanses us from all sin".    I am certain in heaven we will be complete individuals who shine with the light of Jesus. it is sin that causes disunity, and there all sin will be gone.

God does not lead us to diametrically opposed positions.  That is an impossibility. 

Yes, it is sin that causes disunity.  What is sin?  The placing of self above God's desires for us.  Thus, if all we ever do is go where WE want to go are we really doing is rejecting God's will for us. 

I see very, very little of people studying together here to reach a common understanding.  We all state our  beliefs, our disagreements, but then what happens?  Nothing.  We all go our way still believing exactly the same thing and no effort is made to come to a common point. 

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1 minute ago, Gary K said:

God does not lead us to diametrically opposed positions.  That is an impossibility. 

Yes, it is sin that causes disunity.  What is sin?  The placing of self above God's desires for us.  Thus, if all we ever do is go where WE want to go are we really doing is rejecting God's will for us. 

I see very, very little of people studying together here to reach a common understanding.  We all state our  beliefs, our disagreements, but then what happens?  Nothing.  We all go our way still believing exactly the same thing and no effort is made to come to a common point. 

what happens is... God's working.  no one here is corralling everyone up and telling them what to believe.  But God is speaking and he can speak through any of us to anyone reading any time.  and that you cannot measure.  sometimes we want more structure, and that may be what we need in some stages of our faith walk.  This is a forum created in much prayer and maintained with Much prayer.  God is invited here and does work here in many lives.

the very presence of a diversity of thought and experience  is proof positive that the SDA Church is not a cult and this alone has great value.  So many have a barrier that the sda church is a cult... a very powerful barrier to take down indeed.

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A couple of comments:

 

We may not, in this life, come to a common understanding on every point of doctrine.   There is nothing to tell us that we will.  It just may be the in eternity we will achieve the common understanding hat we do not have  here in this life.

Some doctrinal issues are of lessor importance than others.   We do not have to attain agreement on every point of doctrine.  Some just are not that important.

God may be lading us.  We may be able to unquestionably point to concrete examples of the Holy Spirit leading us.  I can in my life.  But such does not mean that the Holy Spirit has led us at this point of time, to understand every point of doctrine as it exists in truth.  In spite of my being led in the past, I still may have further to go in the future as to understanding of what God has to tell me in the future.

  

 

 

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1 hour ago, debbym said:

Jesus is our unity.  Apart from Him we have no unity.  so "when we walk in the light as He is in the light we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ His son cleanses us from all sin".    I am certain in heaven we will be complete individuals who shine with the light of Jesus. it is sin that causes disunity, and there all sin will be gone

::like::

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On 2/18/2017 at 4:59 PM, Gary K said:

I see very, very little of people studying together here to reach a common understanding.  We all state our  beliefs, our disagreements, but then what happens?  Nothing. 

I disagree.  In simply sharing our ideas and beliefs with one another, we become changed.  My spirituality and theology has been considerably enhanced by some of the posters here at CA.  If it wasn't for CA, I would likely no longer identify with SDA's.  I'm not gonna name names, but certain people here have influenced me in very positive ways, and have correctly let me  know when I get too far off the beaten path.  I thank God for CA.  The attitude here is "what do you think God is telling us?" rather than "if you disagree with me, you are wrong and probably going to burn".

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On 2/20/2017 at 7:32 AM, JoeMo said:

I disagree.  In simply sharing our ideas and beliefs with one another, we become changed.  My spirituality and theology has been considerably enhanced by some of the posters here at CA.  If it wasn't for CA, I would likely no longer identify with SDA's.  I'm not gonna name names, but certain people here have influenced me in very positive ways, and have correctly let me  know when I get too far off the beaten path.  I thank God for CA.  The attitude here is "what do you think God is telling us?" rather than "if you disagree with me, you are wrong and probably going to burn".

Joemo,

I have no doubt whatsoever that you have learned here and grown in your walk with God.  However, you approach this place much differently than other people do.  I have learned that in the few interactions I have had with you.  You are an honest man.  You mean what you say, and say what you mean.   Not everyone is like that. 

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On 2/11/2017 at 7:31 PM, CoAspen said:

From todays sermon.....'our special values and beliefs are less important than having love for one another'.

 

Love "...does not insist on its own way. " 1 Cor 13:5 ESV

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Seems like a novel way of parsing "unity".  I have no water buffalo that could be gored in this fight.  I don't care one way or another.  I am distressed, however, that AFTER the GC in SESSION as a world body rejected WO, there are those who continue to ignore the authority of the world church.  They seem to think nothing about schism for the sake of their agenda.  Agitate for change, YES!  But in any organization, at the end of the day, the body abides by the decision of the majority.  Love "does not insist on its own way." 1 Cor 13:5 ESV.

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.I have no water buffalo that could be gored in this fight. 

Gerry, I LOVE this idiom! I am going to use it!

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......there are those who continue to ignore the authority of the world church.

Starts us down the catch-22 track.....are they to be my conscience, is a person supposed to ignore the guiding of the Holy Spirit, are we catholic in our belief that the world church is supreme authority, etc, etc. It bothers me more what the world church is doing.

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4 hours ago, CoAspen said:

Starts us down the catch-22 track.....are they to be my conscience, is a person supposed to ignore the guiding of the Holy Spirit, are we catholic in our belief that the world church is supreme authority, etc, etc. It bothers me more what the world church is doing.

Each side claims to being guided by the Holy Spirit.  The Spirit cannot be moving two opposite sides.  And no one is telling you to stop believing what you believe.  Keep agitating for change if you must.  But taking action contrary to the decision of the world body?

Is this a salvational issue so as to sacrifice the unity of the body?  Please read 1 Cor 13:5 in the ESV or NLT again.  If the word body is wrong and if this is an important enough issue, the Lord will at some point have to clarify it.  In the meantime, as a democratic

organization, shouldn't we abide by the will of the majority?  

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So, are you suggesting that the women who believed that they are called of God, just as their male counterparts, should just stop thier calling and do what??

The majority is always right? You can't believe that!!!

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9 hours ago, CoAspen said:

So, are you suggesting that the women who believed that they are called of God, just as their male counterparts, should just stop thier calling and do what??

The majority is always right? You can't believe that!!!

Who ever said a woman or anyone cannot serve the Lord without ordination? 

No, the majority is not always right.  But since we don't have a clear "thus says the Lord", don't you think that as a democratic organization we should not let the will of the majority rule?  Or is this a matter of "who is the greatest " all over again and no one wants to pick up a towel?

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