What happens when the Bible is wrong?

[Stan]

 

[Gail]

Well said! The discourse piqued a couple of thoughts:

1-   That God used humans and earthly circumstances, IOW, He did the best He could with what He had. Way back in Old Testament times, if POWs were not killed they were enslaved. Reminds me of apartheid, too, in that it was church people who felt justified. Slavery was a fact of life. It is a fact of life in some parts of the world today, too.

2-   I would feel that there would be a difference in a Christian slave owner as opposed to a secular or idolatrous one. Because the slave owner was in authority over his slaves, I feel that like parents he is presenting God's character to his underlings. Hence, sexual abuse is wrong whether it is a slave, a child or a stranger.  I surely hope that the secular slave owners weren't more merciful than the Christian ones... That would totally blow my theory.

3-   My hunch is that a person's viewpoint of his God/god would follow through into his actions, whether violent or peaceful while claiming the name of Christ. A person suffering under the view of a God of condemnation will likely follow the logical progression to his treating others with condemnation and/or worse.

[Gail]

In a nutshell- the practice of mercy would have made a larger difference in all eras.

[aka]

My speakers are on the blink... will listen to what the guy has to say later.

It is spreading seeds of doubt in our minds to real such a  heading....what happens when the bible is wrong..... 

It's a step-stone to blasphemy. 

[JoeMo]

Two unchangeable rules for Bible Study:

1. The Bible (at least in the original language) is never wrong.  Our interpretation is more likely wrong or the translation is inaccurate.

2. If you think the Bible is wrong, see Rule Number 1.

[Stan]

What the issues are are the civil laws for their community, and this is dealling more about slavery. Example of a slave is raped by her master, she can be put to death. Rape of a woman had harsh penalties, how ever if you owned her, it was more like a slap on the wrist. Those kinds of laws.  They were needed at the time as the civil laws, but not what we would do today.

[Kevin H]

53 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Two unchangeable rules for Bible Study:

1. The Bible (at least in the original language) is never wrong.  Our interpretation is more likely wrong or the translation is inaccurate.

2. If you think the Bible is wrong, see Rule Number 1.

Once again this is the view of "Fundamentalism" and especially since 1923 we have suffered because people held these two rules for Mrs. White.  The Lord has allowed us to suffer the issues with Mrs. White to prepare us for these same problems in scripture. There has already been a number of problems shown but most Christians refuse to look at it holding on to these two rules that JoeMo has shared here. But the last deception is that people will no longer believe in the spirit of prophecy, and it is these two rules that are preparing hearts for that final deception.

The day is coming and we must prepare for when Christians can no longer ignore the problems of coping and errors and contradictions in the Bible. Most likely that day will come around the same time as Satan's counterfeit coming in which people will no longer need this dry old book as they can come to "Jesus" to realize what the "truth" is. Those of us who still cling to the Bible for truth will be ridiculed even worst than those of us who cling to Mrs. White's writings.

The issue for this is the same way we deal with problems with Mrs. White:
1.) Realize that it is the framework and basic message which is inspired, so study for the principles. The errors are not in the major theological messages but in either application or in how the writer choose to express them in his day.
2.) The contradictions often show us different aspects of God that we could not see with only one perspective.

3.) The law of God is absolute but the application of the law is not absolute.

4) We are not using the text for it's intended use (such as trying to use the Bible to figure out the age of the earth).

5) As JoeMo pointed out our interpretation is more likely to be wrong or translation inaccurate.

We may want to add more than these five which has quickly popped into my mind and I'd like to see more discussion here. Usually the problems in the Bible are our fault. But there are times that it is not but we want more from inspiration than what inspiration actually does.

[Gregory Matthews]

God has to work with both human and the divine elements in communicating with us.  There is no other way that God could communicate with we who are human.  Often, the    so-called errors that we think we find in the Bible are simply our own lack of understanding and in reality the Bible was not wrong.  We can believe that God has provided us with a Bible that is sufficient for us to know what God wants us to know and if errors exist, they  are not sufficient to preclude us from salvation.  However, due to the human element in the Bible that God has given us we may find what we believe are errors.  This should not discourage us.

 

 

[JoeMo]

We also need to remember that Bible writers were God's penmen - not His pen.  Some of what we perceive to be errors are simply the "color" that the writers put on things when filtering God's revelations through their own baggage, experiences, and culture.  If everything in the Bible correlated exactly with everything else in the Bible, I might suspect some sort of collusion among the writers.  The fact that there are some discrepancies between writers makes me less suspicious of collusion.  Different people see things and describe things from different viewpoints.

 

EGW on the other hand was a single writer.  I would think that her own writings would be consistent with each other.  I will concede that her theology may have evolved over time.  I know mine has.

[Gregory Matthews]

JoMo:  You are on the right track. De to our humanity, there is an element of baggage, personal experiences and  culture that is communicated.  I will suggest that as this is true for the Biblical writers, it is also true for EGW.

 

[Gail]

1 hour ago, Gregory Matthews said:

JoMo:  You are on the right track. De to our humanity, there is an element of baggage, personal experiences and  culture that is communicated.  I will suggest that as this is true for the Biblical writers, it is also true for EGW.

 

That is not so hard to do, to give them some leeway on account of our not having all the information, is it?

[Kevin H]

I had to leave for work but ended at a good point and time to think before continuing and I am very pleased with the points presented. JoeMo, as for Mrs. White you are right as she did progress. So did the church. God's work with her had to be not only what she was able to understand at the time, but also what the church members could understand. And dealing with people in general, but even more specifically Christians, especially Seventh-day Adventists you have to admit can be compared to trying to herd a bunch of cats. Along with the growth of all of these, she needed to write in one extreme to one group of people and a different extreme to another group trying to get them into a more balanced view. But Fundamentalists read her statements written to the people at the extremes and make that the norm for all Adventists.

And getting back to the scriptures, we can ask how may of the 12 spies that were sent to spy out the land was faithful. Were there 2, 1 or 12? Well depends on where you read. In Numbers 10 of the 12 were unfaithful and only Joshua and Caleb were faithful. In Deuteronomy all 12 spies were faithful but the people turned against them and Joshua and Caleb stood up to protect the spies from the people. In some places Joshua is one of the spies in other places it indicates that he was not one of the spies but that Caleb got to enter the land because he was the only faithful spy and Joshua got to enter the land because he was Moses' assistant and the new leader after Moses died, and when doing the conquest Caleb has to say to Joshua "Don't you remember when we spied out the land..." but had to inform Joshua about "When I spied out the land" and explain to Joshua what the spies did and learned when spying out the land. This teaches us that God is very flexible with us. The different Bible writers/Editors had the basic story, 12 went to spy the land but it was not entered at the time until 40 years later and the only ones from the generation that left Egypt to enter the land was Joshua and Caleb, and that just because specific details were forgotten or remembered different ways by different people does not have God having a fit that every nook and cranny of the details have to be exact.

Then we have the law of the altars: First they were to build altars but only out of the stones in their natural condition and it was a horrible sin to build an altar out of stones that have been shaped by tools. Later it was ok to build an altar out of stones shaped by tools just as long as they did not build them high enough to need steps, and it was no longer a sin to use shaped stones but it was a horrible sin to build the altar high enough to need steps. Finally we find that pants were developed that the priests could wear under their robes and building altars with shaped stones high enough to need stairs was no longer a sin but fully acceptable.

Ever look at the contrast between Leviticus and Deuteronomy? One is built on a very strong General Conference and focused on the General Conference and where worship is very strict and somber and solemn "be still and know that I am God" where the major feasts were on the fall feasts. In the other the General Conference is very weak, and the administrative structure is congregational, worship is with flute, timbrel, tambourine, and dancing. We learn in the Bible that both types of church government and worship styles have their strong and weak points. But instead of learning that lesson we study the Bible for "WHAT IS THE BIBLIAL FORM OF CHURCH GOVERNMENT AND WORSHIP?" and end up either picking up on all the strong General conference texts and says "SEE THE BIBLE COMMANDS US TO HAVE A STRONG GENERAL CONFERENCE!!! AND THE WORSHIP SERVICE NEEDS TO BE SOMBER AND SOLEMN" and others pick up on all the strong congregational texts and says "SEE THE BIBLE TELLS US WE NEED TO BE MORE CONGRAGATIONAL AND HAVE A FAIRLY WEAK GENERAL CONFERENCE!!! AND TO WORSHIP WITH DRUMS, FLUTE, TIMBEREL TAMBOURINE AND DANCING!!!!"

Have you ever noticed that we have two conflicting  tents of worship  in the wilderness? On the one hand there is the sanctuary in the middle where the family of Aaron ministered because God said that wanted to live in the mists of his people, and the tent of the meeting where Moses and his family ministered outside of the camp because God said that it was impossible for him to live in the mists of the people because his presence would kill them.  (by the way it was the sanctuary in the mists of the people where worship ended up being very somber, and it was the tent of the meeting away from the people where the people could come and worship with  flute, timbrel, tambourine, and dancing.

Ever notice the differences between Luke and Mark? While not always, often when telling a story Luke says "Mark has it wrong, this is how it really happened". Although there are also a fair number of places where Luke agrees with Mark, but they are the exception. And in the major structure of the books we really find conflict. In Mark no one knows who Jesus is. Event after event happens and who Jesus is just escapes everybody. Finally Jesus is on the cross, and finally someone gets it, someone finally figures out who Jesus is, the centurion; a man so pagan and Biblically illiterate that he proclaims the truth in a way that would shock any good monotheistic Jew "surely this was a son of the gods" (the way pagans described divine beings.) However in Luke EVERYONE knows who Jesus is, from John the Baptist leaping in Elizabeth's womb, Simeon and Anna and even the demons and demoniacs, to the thief on the cross. While Mark has everyone clueless about Jesus except for the Centurion, in Luke Jesus meets person after person after person and they time after time know who he is. However when we reach the climax of Mark's gospel where finally someone realized who Jesus was, in Luke the Centurion was as clueless as all the other people in Mark and could say nothing more than "He must have been a good man." 

In a city that was already old deserted ruins by the time of Abraham they found these words:

Lift up your heads, O ye gods; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting ones; and the King of glory shall come in.

                                                       Who is this King of glory? Baal strong and mighty, Baal mighty in battle.

                                                       Lift up your heads, O ye gods; even lift them up, ye everlasting ones; and the King of glory shall come in.

                                                       Who is this King of glory? Baal of hosts, he is the King of glory.

The discovery of the fact that Hebrew was still a living (and not as previously believed dead) language in Jesus' day and translating the Greek back into the Hebrew instead of Aramaic has brought a few interesting discoveries. These include that Jesus quoted the Old Testament far more than we realize. Also, Jesus quoted other rabbis frequently, but instead of just sticking to one school of the rabbis and pushing their views, he picked and choose quotes freely from rabbis from many schools. His talks were like if we were to have a sermon and the pastor kept quoting Stephen Haskell, Elder's Washburn and Wilkinson, Gerhard Hassel, Graham Maxwell, Desmond Ford and Questions on Doctrine. (and if someone was to do that they would probably find themselves crucified just as quickly as Jesus did.)

The Book of Revelation is a mixture of Old Testament texts, rabbinical sayings that eventually became the Mishnah, and popular theatrical plays of the time.  

These are issues that most Christians don't want to face and deal with, but which we must face up to so that we don't fall to the last deception of making of no effect the spirit of prophecy.

[Kevin H]

I was hoping to add to the discussion not kill it off.

[aka]

What? Are you not in touch with this age of Twitter and Facebook grammar and writing style?

Short, to the point, and just the bare necessities. 

Even Charles Dickens head would spin if he was forced into conversation at these modern online forums. 

                                                                               

[Gail]

On August 30, 2017 at 9:35 AM, Gregory Matthews said:

God has to work with both human and the divine elements in communicating with us.  There is no other way that God could communicate with we who are human.  Often, the    so-called errors that we think we find in the Bible are simply our own lack of understanding and in reality the Bible was not wrong.  We can believe that God has provided us with a Bible that is sufficient for us to know what God wants us to know and if errors exist, they  are not sufficient to preclude us from salvation.  However, due to the human element in the Bible that God has given us we may find what we believe are errors.  This should not discourage us.

 

 

Bart Ehrman, a textual critic expert, saw so much of the human errors in Scripture that he became an agnostic atheist.

We must not forget that despite man's handling of God's word (because God included man in the process), the Bible is a powerful text. It has the ability to bring men to submission to Him and change lives. It still is not an ordinary book.

[Ron Amnsn]

Where in the video does it show that the Bible is wrong?

[Ron Amnsn]

I took the time to look up the texts that the speaker refers to.  He takes a bit of liberty in his paraphrases of God's Word.  He apparently thinks context is not important.  He preaches a clever sermon, but treats the Scriptures in a rather cavalier manner.

The speaker apparently thinks that the slavery referred to in the Bible was identical to the slavery that was practiced in the United States.  It was not.  In many cases the slavery regulated in the Bible was better than the common alternative.

We currently live in societies that have deemed certain types of slavery to be immoral.  So from our vantage point of supposed moral superiority some feel free to denounce God's word.

The idea of man-made moral superiority above the Bible and in contradiction to the Bible is gaining in popularity.  That's why Christians are currently being accused of being "haters" for holding the same opinion of various sins as the opinions that God revealed in the Bible.

[Gary K]

By that speaker's logic the Bible teaches us to commit suicide, commit murder to gain our neighbor's wife, to marry the Philistine temptress', to send our daughters out to be raped by the maddened crowd that is seeking our life, to marry hundreds of wives and have hundreds of concubines simultaneously, to choose wealth over what is right, to marry the priestess of Baal,  to choose sin over righteousness, etc....

It seems there are new chapters in the Jesus Seminar.  One here, and one at La Seirra. 

[phkrause]

My thoughts exactly Ron!! He has no clue as to the Hebrew mind of the Bible, and God's mind for that matter!!

[Gary K]

12 minutes ago, phkrause said:

My thoughts exactly Ron!! He has no clue as to the Hebrew mind of the Bible, and God's mind for that matter!!

What you see is the result of socialistic thought and political correctness.  He is bowing to the god of this world.  That was a sermon based upon political correctness, not the Bible. 

[phkrause]

20 minutes ago, Gary K said:

What you see is the result of socialistic thought and political correctness.  He is bowing to the god of this world.  That was a sermon based upon political correctness, not the Bible. 

Sorry but I don't agree at all in your statement!! I believe he just doesn't understand the Bible and Hebrew thought, plain and simple!! This socialistic and political bandwagon that you insist on bringing up just doesn't cut it!

[GayatfootofCross]

Wow I must have put it in the wrong spot!

Sorry