Is Jesus really the Son of God?

[ReturntoDar]

Paul, like the other Apostles, was hated by most of the Jews because they openly and publicly taught that Jesus was the Son of God. The Jews thought this was blasphemy against God and were more than willing to throw someone in jail over the issue. Today, the Church says Jesus is not really the Son of God, He is just "role playing". There are various versions of when He assumed this position, but the common thread is: Jesus is not the Son of God. Those who say He literally IS the Son of God are persecuted today! Without a doubt, some will hate this post. The irony, we are following in the Jewish footsteps, by openly and unapologetically declaring that Jesus not the literal Son of God.

[Gustave]

Define, identify "the Church" that says Jesus is not really the Son of God? No Trinitarian Church asserts such a thing. 

[phkrause]

17 hours ago, Gustave said:

Define, identify "the Church" that says Jesus is not really the Son of God? No Trinitarian Church asserts such a thing. 

I definitely agree!!

[Gustave]

I think I know what he's getting at here but could be wrong. 

Back in the 90's some Adventists claimed that originally there were 3 Beings (God's) of equal power, in the effort to mitigate FUTURE sins these 3 Beings adopted roles formally alien to them. One Being took on the role of Father, one adopted the role of Son and the remaining Being adopted the role of Holy Spirit. 

Seventh-day Adventist Review & Herald
A plan of salvation was encompassed in the covenant made by the Three Persons of the Godhead, who possessed the attributes of Deity equally. In order to eradicate sin and rebellion from the universe and to restore harmony and peace, one of the divine Beings accepted, AND entered into, the role of the Father, ANOTHER the role of the Son. The remaining divine Being, the Holy Spirit, was also to participate in effecting the plan of salvation. All of this took place before sin and rebellion transpired in heaven. By accepting the roles that the plan entailed, the divine Beings lost none of the powers of Deity. With regard to their eternal existence and other attributes, they were one and equal. But with regard to the plan of salvation, there was, in a sense, a submission on the part of the Son to the Father."

http://docs.adventistarchives.org/do...C.pdf#view=fit
page 12

Approximately a decade later the SDA Church put on a rather large symposium on the Trinity where they REBUTTED the above role adoption teaching - my understanding of the above rubric was that it didn't last very long as a teaching within the SDA Church. 

[TrevorL]

Greetings ReturntoDar, 

On 7/24/2022 at 11:30 AM, ReturntoDar said:

Paul, like the other Apostles, was hated by most of the Jews because they openly and publicly taught that Jesus was the Son of God.

Yes, I also believe that our Lord Jesus Christ was a human, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection. God was his father in the conception/birth process and Mary his mother. As such he was a human and did not exist before he was born. I doubt that you or Trinitarians would agree with this assessment of Jesus as the Son of God.

Kind regards Trevor

[phkrause]

20 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings ReturntoDar, 

Yes, I also believe that our Lord Jesus Christ was a human, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection. God was his father in the conception/birth process and Mary his mother. As such he was a human and did not exist before he was born. I doubt that you or Trinitarians would agree with this assessment of Jesus as the Son of God.

Kind regards Trevor

So than how can he also be the creator if he wasn't the Son of God before he came down to this earth to show us what his father God is like??

[TrevorL]

Greetings phkrause,

3 hours ago, phkrause said:

So than how can he also be the creator if he wasn't the Son of God before he came down to this earth to show us what his father God is like??

Jesus as the Son of God certainly revealed what the One God, Yahweh, God the Father, Jesus' Father is like, and as such he is not God the Son revealing full physical Deity in all aspects of glory. During his ministry he was a human, mortal, subject to death, inheriting the fallen nature of Adam. What Jesus revealed was the character of God, as Jesus was full of grace and truth John 1:14. Yahweh is the Creator, and God the Father made or created Jesus, a human, a descendant of Adam, a little lower than the Angels, Psalm 8:1,3,4-6.

Kind regards Trevor

[Gustave]

7 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings phkrause,

Jesus as the Son of God certainly revealed what the One God, Yahweh, God the Father, Jesus' Father is like, and as such he is not God the Son revealing full physical Deity in all aspects of glory. During his ministry he was a human, mortal, subject to death, inheriting the fallen nature of Adam. What Jesus revealed was the character of God, as Jesus was full of grace and truth John 1:14. Yahweh is the Creator, and God the Father made or created Jesus, a human, a descendant of Adam, a little lower than the Angels, Psalm 8:1,3,4-6.

Kind regards Trevor

Do you believe that Father God was / & still is a flesh & bone hominid with all the members organs and parts of a perfect man? 

[ReturntoDar]

"God is the Father of Christ; Christ is the Son of God. To Christ has been given an exalted position. He has been made equal with the Father. All the counsels of God are opened to His Son." 8T, p. 268

There is ONE God, the Father of Christ, from whom all things have come. Is Jesus eternal? Of course! He was "begotten" and "brought forth" before time began. For what is time to a being who has no beginning and no end? Jesus is the exact image of His Father in all regards. Isaiah, in speaking of the Messiah to come, lists the many names He carries, among them is found "eternal Father". I too carry my fathers name, but I am not my father, I am his son.

Jesus is verily God, and the Lord, at the same time He is the Fathers Son. Not by birth on this planet, but from all eternity, which is "before time began".

[ReturntoDar]

Who was it that showed His "backside" to Moses in the cleft of the rock? Certainly NOT the Father, for no mortal can see the Father, for they would cease to exist. Moses could not see the Father, nor Ellen White. It was Jesus that showed His backside to Moses. It was Jesus in the burning bush. It was Jesus in Genesis who said, "Let us make man...". The Father and His representative the Holy Spirit were certainly there, observing the creative work of God's Son. In ALL of the Old Testament, every verse, every occurrence, it is Jesus, and Jesus only. The Father only speaks three times in the Bible, in the New Testament only. "This is my beloved Son....", Christs baptism is the first such instance.

[ReturntoDar]

On 7/24/2022 at 1:19 PM, phkrause said:

I definitely agree!!

"...one of the divine Beings accepted, and entered into, the role of Father, and another the role of the Son. The remaining divine Being, the Holy Spirit, was also to participate in effecting the plan of salvation. All of this took place before sin and rebellion transpired in heaven..."

From that article you linked: Nothing has changed as it concerns the man made OPINION that God is a committee of three. That Jesus is not really God's Son, He is just playing "role", make believe. This is spiritualism, which Ellen White strictly forbids. There is no Biblical or SOP statement to support this radical acceptance of, in its essence, CATHOLICISM'S view of God. There is ONE God, not three. Father, His Son and their representative.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again ReturntoDar, 

13 hours ago, ReturntoDar said:

Is Jesus eternal? Of course! He was "begotten" and "brought forth" before time began.

I understand that the word "begotten" relates to his birth as a human, with God the Father as his father and Mary as his mother, refer the Mg of the KJV:

Matthew 1:20–21 (KJV): 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived (Mg: Gr. begotten)  in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Luke 1:34–35 (KJV): 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

John 1:14 (KJV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

13 hours ago, ReturntoDar said:

It was Jesus in Genesis who said, "Let us make man...".

I believe that the "us" and "our" of Genesis 1:26 is the One God, Yahweh, God the Father inviting the Angels to participate in the creation of man, refer also Psalm 8:5.

13 hours ago, ReturntoDar said:

In ALL of the Old Testament, every verse, every occurrence, it is Jesus, and Jesus only. The Father only speaks three times in the Bible, in the New Testament only. "This is my beloved Son....", Christs baptism is the first such instance.

No, Jesus did not exist before his birth. It is God the Father who spoke in the OT through the prophets, and spoke in and through His Son in the NT:

Hebrews 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 

Kind regards Trevor

[ReturntoDar]

Jesus created all things. How? He was brought forth by His Father before time began, thus, Jesus is eternal. He is of the same substance of His Father, an exact image of His Father. He carries His Fathers names, as well as His own names. I carry my fathers name, but I am not my father. The Father and Son are distinctly individual divine beings. WHEN did time begin? When sin entered! Before sin there was only eternity. When the sin problem is finally resolved, time will once again, cease to exist. "Time" is irrelevant to beings who will live for eternity. 7,000 years of this earths history will not even be a dot in consideration of eternity. The problem: Jesus is eternal, yet He was begotten of His Father. Mankind is unable to grasp how divinity works, because of this, endless theories and confusion reign. Just take the Bible as it reads: God is the Father of Christ. Christ is the Son of God. Beyond that, you will strive in vain to reason it out.

[phkrause]

14 hours ago, TrevorL said:

No, Jesus did not exist before his birth. It is God the Father who spoke in the OT through the prophets, and spoke in and through His Son in the NT:

So what may I ask is John saying here?

John 1:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 He was with God in the beginning.

3 All things came to be through him, and without him nothing made had being.

 

He's telling us right there that Jesus was the creator. was with his father, he was there at creation!!

[TrevorL]

Greetings again ReturntoDar, 

17 hours ago, ReturntoDar said:

The Father and Son are distinctly individual divine beings. ...

The problem: Jesus is eternal, yet He was begotten of His Father. Mankind is unable to grasp how divinity works, because of this, endless theories and confusion reign. Just take the Bible as it reads: God is the Father of Christ. Christ is the Son of God. Beyond that, you will strive in vain to reason it out.

Yes, I suggest that your reasoning and theory has failed. You seem to have ended up with two Gods, one that can be seen by man, and the other that cannot be seen by man (a contradiction? if they are the same). I suggest that the Bible teaches that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God by birth through Mary, by character and by resurrection.

Kind regards Trevor

[TrevorL]

Greetings again phkrause,

5 hours ago, phkrause said:

So what may I ask is John saying here? John 1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 All things came to be through him, and without him nothing made had being.He's telling us right there that Jesus was the creator. was with his father, he was there at creation!!

Jesus appears in John 1:14, as the Son born and revealed to John and others at the age of 30, moral glory, full of grace and truth. He is not directly mentioned in John 1:1. I understand that the WORD in John 1:1 is a personification of God the Father's character, purpose, thoughts and will similar to the Wise Woman WISDOM in Proverbs 8, who was with God in the creation. As far as personification is concerned, the following passages also give a partial introduction to this concept, Psalm 33:6.9 and Isaiah 55:8-10, where the Word of God proceeds out of the mouth of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father. Psalm 8:1-3 speaks of Yahweh as the Creator, and Yahweh is distinct from David's Lord Psalm 110:1, Revelation 3:21-22.

Kind regards Trevor

[phkrause]

Well the "Word" is Jesus/Son of God, God the Son!! God the Son and God the Father, did not have the Angels help in creation!!

[TrevorL]

Greetings again phkrause,

1 hour ago, phkrause said:

Well the "Word" is Jesus/Son of God,

I appreciate your statement but disagree. Can you please explain why you claim it is Jesus here in John 1:1, and why is the title "The Word" used instead of "Jesus" or "The Son", or "God the Son"? What you say above is popular with Trinitarians and with many who are not Trinitarians.

1 hour ago, phkrause said:

God the Son!!

This is only popular with Trinitarians, but not with non-Trinitarians. The terms Son of God and God the Son are contradictory. How can Jesus be a Son, a Son of God, if he is God? What does the usual claim, begotten from eternity, really mean, as these are contradictory terms?

1 hour ago, phkrause said:

God the Father, did not have the Angels help in creation!!

I understand that the "us" and "our" of Genesis 1:26 includes the Angels who were invited by the One God, Yahweh, God the Father to participate in the creation of man in the likeness and after the image of God and the Angels. Psalm 8:5 is a summary of Genesis 1:26-27 and verifies this perspective, where the Angels are mentioned in the context of the creation of Adam and also looks forward to the day that Jesus would be made or created a little lower than the Angels, thus a human, but also the Son of God.

Kind regards Trevor

[ReturntoDar]

TrevorL suggests that I have two Gods, the Father AND His Son. Some say there are three Gods, the Father, Jesus (who many say is NOT God's Son because He is eternal and therefore can't possibly be God's Son, faulty reasoning), and the Holy Spirit is God number three. I take the Bible just as it reads: There is ONE God. He has a Son, who carries all His Father's names and some names that are exclusive to Him (Messiah). I carry my fathers name, but I am not my father. God, Christs Father, has a representative, His Holy Spirit, who is divine, as is Jesus. Divinity does not make the Holy Spirit, or Jesus, "God". There is ONE God, the Father of Christ. Jesus is the exact image of His Father in all regards. He was "begotten", He was "brought forth" BEFORE time began, thus, Jesus is eternal. The Holy Spirit, being God's representative, and Jesus being equal with His Father, is also represented by the Holy Spirit. God, is NOT a "committee" of three (the God Head). God, the Father of Christ, has a body just as His Son has a body. The Holy Spirit is without form but certainly has a personality. This concept of God as a committee of three equal parts makes God a "spirit", a "concept", a "theory". It has NO scriptural support in ANY regard. It is entirely a manmade attempt to explain what they cannot explain. Time did not even exist until sin entered. Time will once again cease to exist when the great controversy is completed. "Everlasting" before sin, "everlasting" after sin.

[phkrause]

18 hours ago, TrevorL said:

I appreciate your statement but disagree. Can you please explain why you claim it is Jesus here in John 1:1, and why is the title "The Word" used instead of "Jesus" or "The Son", or "God the Son"? What you say above is popular with Trinitarians and with many who are not Trinitarians.

Read the context, it's Jesus that John is talking about!! By the way who else would it be??

 

18 hours ago, TrevorL said:

understand that the "us" and "our" of Genesis 1:26 includes the Angels who were invited by the One God, Yahweh, God the Father to participate in the creation of man in the likeness and after the image of God and the Angels

There's no statement in the Bible where it remotely says anything about the angels taking part in creation of man!! As far as Psalms 8:5, "You made him but little lower than the angels, you crowned him with glory and honor," that's not talking about creation!!

And as far as the "Trinity" is concerned, why does Jesus tell his us to Matthew 28:19 "Therefore, go and make people from all nations into talmidim, immersing them into the reality of the Father, the Son and the Ruach HaKodesh?"

[TrevorL]

Greetings again phkrause,

5 hours ago, phkrause said:

Read the context, it's Jesus that John is talking about!! By the way who else would it be??

A personification as I stated in my earlier post addressed to you.

5 hours ago, phkrause said:

There's no statement in the Bible where it remotely says anything about the angels taking part in creation of man!! As far as Psalms 8:5, "You made him but little lower than the angels, you crowned him with glory and honor," that's not talking about creation!!

Psalm 8 is about the Creation and the New Creation. Psalm 8:5 uses the framework of the Creation of Adam to speak about the New Creation in and through Jesus, a human, the Son of God. Please note that the word translated "Angels" here is "Elohim" and this shows that in some contexts and especially here in the Creation context, that the Angels are included in this title for God. Many translations and commentators who do not understand this concept have translated Elohim here as God. Yes, ultimately Psalm 8:5 is speaking about Christ and this verse disproves the Trinity.

5 hours ago, phkrause said:

And as far as the "Trinity" is concerned, why does Jesus tell his us to Matthew 28:19 "Therefore, go and make people from all nations into talmidim, immersing them into the reality of the Father, the Son and the Ruach HaKodesh?"

The Name of the One God, God the Father is revealed in Exodus 3:14-15 and I understand this to be best represented by Yahweh or similar. So God's Name is Yahweh, and this Name is revealed through Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the development of the Yahweh Name, "He who will be". Refer Tyndale's translation of Exodus 3:14, and also the RV and RSV margins, also AB Davidson's exposition. Salvation now is through the Name of Jesus, not the Trinity:

Acts 4:5–12 (KJV): 5 And it came to pass on the morrow, that their rulers, and elders, and scribes, 6 And Annas the high priest, and Caiaphas, and John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the kindred of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem. 7 And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, By what power, or by what name, have ye done this? 8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel, 9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Acts 8:5–6,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Kind regards Trevor
 

[ReturntoDar]

Ellen White: God is the Father of Christ. Christ is the Son of God.

Peter: Thou art the Son of the living God.

God (Christs Father): This is my beloved Son.

The above meant just what they said. They weren't pretending, they were speaking truth. The Bible, written for the common man, he will have no problem understanding these clear statements. The God Head, all three, are at once eternal and divine. But only one of them is God the Father, from whom ALL things came. He begat His Son, Jesus. Jesus was brought forth, by His Father. When? In eternity! Jesus is at once, eternal and begotten! This is not complicated, for the common man. Intellectuals who try to understand how this is possible are searching into the mysteries of God the Father of Christ and they will not find the answer. Solution: take the Bible just as it reads. Believe on the word.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again ReturntoDar,

15 hours ago, ReturntoDar said:

Ellen White: God is the Father of Christ. Christ is the Son of God.

I suggest that this is a SDA problem, as SDAs believe that she was an inspired prophet, and yet the SDAs are divided on whether or not she taught that the One God is the Father, or she believed in the Trinity (towards the end of her life). It seems that many older SDAs reject the Trinity.

15 hours ago, ReturntoDar said:

Peter: Thou art the Son of the living God. God (Christs Father): This is my beloved Son.

Yes, there are many references to support that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

15 hours ago, ReturntoDar said:

Jesus was brought forth, by His Father. When? In eternity! Jesus is at once, eternal and begotten!

The NT use of the word "begotten" refers to his birth as a human. Begotten from eternity is a contradiction in terms.

15 hours ago, ReturntoDar said:

This is not complicated, for the common man. Intellectuals who try to understand how this is possible are searching into the mysteries of God the Father of Christ and they will not find the answer. Solution: take the Bible just as it reads. Believe on the word.

Contradictions are complicated or perhaps we should say impossible, except for spin doctors. We have been given minds to discern the simple truth, and false religions like the term "Mystery" and mysteries, part of the religion of Babylon the Great.

Kind regards Trevor

[ReturntoDar]

"In the beginning, God was revealed in all the works of creation. It was Christ that spread the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth. It was His hand that hung the worlds in space, and fashioned the flowers of the field. "His strength setteth fast the mountains." "The sea is His, and He made it." Ps. 65:6; 95:5. It was He that filled the earth with beauty, and the air with song. And upon all things in earth, and air, and sky, He wrote the message of the Father's love". Desire of Ages, pg 20

Jesus was the creator of all things. It was He, who spoke and it stood fast. It was the Father, through His Son,, that all things have their orgination. All things were created for Him, and by Him, the exact image of His Father, the one true God.

[phkrause]

10 Times Jesus Showed Up in the Old Testament and What They Reveal

The Bible reveals the story of a loving God who’s been pursuing His children since the beginning of time. This God loves us so much, He sent His Son to rescue mankind and reconcile us with Himself. Jesus, our Savior who took on flesh, bore our sin, and died in our place, is the hero of this redemptive story, and as such, can be found throughout Scripture, beginning with Genesis, when sin first invaded God’s “very good” creation. 

https://www.crosswalk.com/slideshows/10-times-jesus-showed-up-in-the-old-testament-and-what-they-reveal.html?