The Church of Rome denies Jesus came in the flesh

[hobie]

Look closely at the doctrine of Limbo...

 

"Heaven for the righteous; Hell for the wicked. But what about unbaptized infants who died before they could be one or the other? Theologians have grappled with this problem from the earliest period. The Greek Fathers were more inclined to take a positive view of baby afterlife, while the Latin Fathers were less so.

For St. Gregory of Nazianzen (d. 389), unbaptized babies “will neither be admitted by the just judge to the glory of Heaven nor condemned to suffer punishment, since though unsealed [by baptism], they are not wicked.” His Latin counterpart, St. Augustine, disagreed that there is such an intermediate place. He consigned the poor babies to Hell for the taint of Original Sin, though enduring only the mildest punishment.

Dissatisfied with this harsh concept, St. Thomas Aquinas returned to the notion of limbo, meaning “border,” as a place for babies who never sinned of their own volition and thus were undeserving of Hell, where they would spend eternity in ignorant bliss, neither experiencing the torments of Hell nor the joys of Beatific Vision in Heaven.

This became the standard teaching and was defended by Pope Pius VI in 1794 against the heretical Jansenists who denied the place “which the faithful generally designate by the name of limbo for children” (Auctorem Fidei). Limbo never became an official doctrine, so Catholics were not required to believe it, nor were they allowed to deny its existence. Through the centuries, however, the Church alluded to it, and theologians taught it. So it became “common doctrine.”

Doubts about limbo lingered, and the future Pope Benedict XVI expressed his in 2005. Two years later, the Church’s International Theological Commission released the document called “The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die Without Being Baptised.” This reduced limbo to a theological hypothesis and an “unduly restrictive view of salvation” at that. Catholics can still believe it if they want to, but they are now free to deny it.^[5]"

Here is what I had from a post when I first looked at this issue...

Now lets look at the doctrine or belief of 'Limbo' which now the Catholic church is now claiming it never accepted, but still incorporated the theory in its ordinary beliefs. The term 'Limbo' was picked up as the part of the underworld (Hades) where the patriarchs of the Old Testament were believed to be kept until Christ's soul descended into it by his death. The Catechism of the Catholic Church describes Christ's descent into "hell" as meaning primarily that "the crucified one sojourned in the realm of the dead prior to his resurrection. This was the first meaning given for Christ experiencing death for the wages of sin, in the Catholic view it was Christ's descent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead. It also was applied later, to the The 'Limbo of Infants' (Latin limbus infantium or limbus puerorum) is a hypothesis about the permanent status of the unbaptized who die in infancy, too young to have committed personal sins, but not having been freed from what Catholics hold as original sin. Since at least the time of Augustine, those consider sprinkling of infants or baby baptism to be necessary for the salvation of those to whom it can be administered, have debated the fate of unbaptized innocents, and the theory of the 'Limbo of Infants' is one of the ideas as a proposed solution. Again both are not scriptural as the term 'Limbo' is not referred to and does not appear in the Bible, just more Greek myths of pagan influence and mans tradition or ideas being picked up and mixed in. It is interesting to note that 'Limbo' is not an official doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church or any other.

[Gregory Matthews]

Your understanding of venerate is correct.  It is far different from worship.  We SDAs often venerate Ellen White. You tell us that individual belief must come from someone teaching that person.  You are simply wrong.  People often come to a religious belief from their own individual study, and not from someone teaching them.  In addition, individual church members may come to a belief from someone who is not a part of their church.  

I have sat in a a Sabbath School class that has long-time Adventists, newly baptized Adventists and people who are not members of any denomination.  Each person has a set of beliefs.   One member is a newly baptized SDA.  She is teaching others where she lives things that she thinks the Bible teaches that came from her personal study and are not part of SDA belief.  In addition, she is teaching things that she got off of the Internet and are not part of SDA belief.

If you want to know what Catholics teach, go to an official source, and do not look to a member.  It is unethical for you to do otherwise and continue to claim what they deny.  Individual Adventists may believe that each person has an individual soul that lives on after death.   Yesterday, i read an article that suggested that perhaps 20% of SDA members believe such.  But it would be dishonest for you to state that such is an SDA teaching. Church members are growing in faith, understanding and life.  All denominations, including SDA, have members who do not fully represent denominational beliefs.  

It is clear that you do not understand Catholic beliefs.  That is OK.  You do not have to understand such in order to be saved.  Wht you need to do is to be more accurate when you decide to state what Catholics believe.     

 

[Gregory Matthews]

 

The official teachings of the Roman Catholic Church may be found in the English version of the Catechism of the Catholic Church published in Rome.  The link below informs as to how to purchase one. I have one in my library.  My copy is older than the   one cited in the following lnk.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Catechism-Catholic-Libreria-Editrice-Vaticana/dp/1639661328/ref=sr_1_4?adgrpid=1345804789056990&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.mvDPxqgykONezbc7dFC-8BhFY9BlJ9nwwqwCQH5mIY6u3uCNEHn6qnPtgKU1CPfhfF-jhFu0MBCG1qsaDAjsrBMOC2M_YaJLWO1njlNkdVFmjMC_rv5aEV-Ar5y3yfyeimqY-4ypuPR9mxz8Q273QPy1lEFwEfM9_nJetbRPrgq1Avd__Qhjc-gggFCd9Bl1ES7shMqBSHY9hCVGMp112thAgKFhiKE6eFh142C6nHI.3ILs309kQ9_V9AAA9BRZ8XuLHD4YLCMnr9t34f1XNvA&dib_tag=se&hvadid=84113082804052&hvbmt=bp&hvdev=c&hvlocint=243779&hvlocphy=91004&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=p&hvtargid=kwd-84114004736899%3Aloc-190&hydadcr=4005_13415922&keywords=catechism+of+the+catholic+church&mcid=2651ee33bcdb3d8d9fdb9bb9ed459d53&msclkid=c32111aa1fef1a61712378e2105734e3&qid=1766330299&sr=8-4

 

[Theophilus]

Hobie,

I have heard many times from SDAs as well as my pastor what you said about  if someone denies  Jesus' coming in the flesh. I knew exactly what you were talking about.

 

[hobie]

20 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Your understanding of venerate is correct.  It is far different from worship.  We SDAs often venerate Ellen White. You tell us that individual belief must come from someone teaching that person.  You are simply wrong.  People often come to a religious belief from their own individual study, and not from someone teaching them.  In addition, individual church members may come to a belief from someone who is not a part of their church.  

I have sat in a a Sabbath School class that has long-time Adventists, newly baptized Adventists and people who are not members of any denomination.  Each person has a set of beliefs.   One member is a newly baptized SDA.  She is teaching others where she lives things that she thinks the Bible teaches that came from her personal study and are not part of SDA belief.  In addition, she is teaching things that she got off of the Internet and are not part of SDA belief.

If you want to know what Catholics teach, go to an official source, and do not look to a member.  It is unethical for you to do otherwise and continue to claim what they deny.  Individual Adventists may believe that each person has an individual soul that lives on after death.   Yesterday, i read an article that suggested that perhaps 20% of SDA members believe such.  But it would be dishonest for you to state that such is an SDA teaching. Church members are growing in faith, understanding and life.  All denominations, including SDA, have members who do not fully represent denominational beliefs.  

It is clear that you do not understand Catholic beliefs.  That is OK.  You do not have to understand such in order to be saved.  Wht you need to do is to be more accurate when you decide to state what Catholics believe.     

 

Now they can put what they want when its clear they are wrong, to cover their tracks as they have done with Mary as the Co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix. 

Dictionary : CO-REDEMPTRIX | Catholic Culture

Catholic Dictionary

Find accurate definitions of over 5,000 Catholic terms and phrases (including abbreviations). Based on Fr. John Hardon's Modern Catholic Dictionary, © Eternal Life.

CO-REDEMPTRIX

A title of the Blessed Virgin as co-operator with Christ in the work of human redemption. It may be considered an aspect of Mary's mediation in not only consenting to become the Mother of God but in freely consenting in his labors, sufferings, and death for the salvation of the human race. As Co-Redemptrix, she is in no sense equal to Christ in his redemptive activity, since she herself required redemption and in fact was redeemed by her Son. He alone merited man's salvation. Mary effectively interceded to obtain subjective application of Christ's merits to those whom the Savior had objectively redeemed.

Dictionary : CO-REDEMPTRIX | Catholic Culture

Co-Redemptrix is a title used in Catholic theology to refer to the Blessed Virgin Mary, highlighting her role in the redemption of humanity. It denotes her unique participation in the sufferings and death of Jesus Christ, which some believe is essential for the redemption of all peoples.

Mediatrix of All Graces | EWTN

Closely related to the Catholic teaching on Mary's cooperation in the redemption is the teaching that, with through and under her Son, she is Mediatrix of all graces. 

mediatrix

American  

[mee-dee-ey-triks]/ ˌmi diˈeɪ trɪks /

Also mediatress,

noun

plural

 mediatrices, mediatrixes

1. a woman who mediates, especially between parties at variance.

2. Usage -What does mediatrix mean? Mediatrix is a term for a female mediator—a woman who mediates or helps to settle a dispute or create agreement when there is conflict between two or more people or groups by acting as an intermediary or go-between for those parties. Another word for mediatrix is mediatress. Usually, the gender-neutral term mediator is used. The plural of mediatrix can be mediatrices or mediatrixes.A mediatrix acts as an impartial third party to guide the communication between the conflicting parties. Although the word mediator can be used in informal situations, mediatrix is typically used in formal ones, such as the mediation of a labor dispute between a company and its striking employees or the mediation of a divorce. Example: She was a world-class mediatrix who was brought in to mediate the toughest negotiations.

You see what they have taught the people to look to Mary, never Christ and is widely held...

 Mary IS Co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix of All Graces | The Fatima Center

Mary as Mediatrix | EWTN

Exploring Mary's Role as Mediatrix of All Graces - The Catholic Crusade

Then they try to subtly shift away from it...

Mary, mother of Jesus and all believers, is not co-redeemer, Vatican says | USCCB

Mary No Longer Called Co-Redemptrix – La Vista Church of Christ

So the people are given and allowed to believe one thing, then the RCC claims they never really held that and move away to bring other Christians into their ecumenism circle by saying they believe as they do.  

 

 

[hobie]

They craftily shift to the most advantageous position, even if it looks like they have retreated as in Vatican II, but they never truly change from their beliefs, just 'clarify' with deceptive word juxtapositions or worse and say they meant this not that, and try to throw the fault on the believers... 

[Gregory Matthews]

Hobie:  Club Adventist exists as a place for people who differ engage in frank, but civil discussions of belief.  You are clearly pushing the boundary as your comments suggest tht Club Adventist is not a place for you.  Perhaps you should consider posting elsewhere.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Hobie:  Gustave has sent me a private e-mail, telling me that he understands you and is O.K. with your comments.  In short, Gustave is showing more grace than you.  I do not intend, at this time, to revoke your ability to post. in CA.  You may want to reconsider how you come across when you claim that you better know what Catholics teach than they understand.

[Gustave]

Hi Hobie, I figured it might be best and slowly answer some of your assumptions and try to do it in such a way that you could easily confirm what it is that I'm saying is accurate. Taking the title of this thread 1st. 

Quote

Hobie said: The Church of Rome denies Jesus came in the flesh.

If you find time to attend a Mass at any Catholic Church on any day of the week (to include Saturday) this is what you'd observe.

After being welcomed by the Priest the congregation says, "The Penitential Act". This is a formal admission by all those present that we all have greatly sinned in our thoughts, words, etc. 

The next thing the congregation does is sing "The Gloria" - we do this in Latin at the Church I attend. Here are the words in English:

 

"Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to people of good will. We praise you, we bless you, we adore you, we glorify you, we give you thanks for your great glory, Lord God, heavenly King, O God, almighty Father. Lord Jesus Christ, Only Begotten Son, Lord God, Lamb of God, Son of the Father, you take away the sins of the world, have mercy on us you take away the sins of the world, receive our prayer; you are seated at the right hand of the Father, have mercy on us. For you alone are the Holy One, you alone are the Lord, you alone are the Most High, Jesus Christ with the Holy Spirit, in the glory of God the Father. Amen."

What follows this are two different Scripture readings after each reading the people say "Thanks be to God". 

Next is the procession of the Gospel of Christ with the Gospel reading - the people all stand for this. 

The congregation next affirms the Catholic Faith were all present repeat "the Nicene Creed". 

While the Nicene Creed is being repeated you will want to watch out for a particular phrase,

"For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven, and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, AND BECAME MAN...."

What I believe this means in application is that God became Man without ceasing to be God. Jesus was like us in all ways EXCEPT in Sin. 

The Catholic Church does not deny that Jesus came in the flesh - The Catholic Church affirms the opposite - that Christ came in our flesh and was like us in ALL WAYS except sin. 

 

 

[hobie]

On 12/22/2025 at 11:17 AM, Gustave said:

Hi Hobie, I figured it might be best and slowly answer some of your assumptions and try to do it in such a way that you could easily confirm what it is that I'm saying is accurate. Taking the title of this thread 1st. 

If you find time to attend a Mass at any Catholic Church on any day of the week (to include Saturday) this is what you'd observe.

After being welcomed by the Priest the congregation says, "The Penitential Act". This is a formal admission by all those present that we all have greatly sinned in our thoughts, words, etc. 

The next thing the congregation does is sing "The Gloria" - we do this in Latin at the Church I attend. Here are the words in English:

 

"Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to people of good will. We praise you, we bless you, we adore you, we glorify you, we give you thanks for your great glory, Lord God, heavenly King, O God, almighty Father. Lord Jesus Christ, Only Begotten Son, Lord God, Lamb of God, Son of the Father, you take away the sins of the world, have mercy on us you take away the sins of the world, receive our prayer; you are seated at the right hand of the Father, have mercy on us. For you alone are the Holy One, you alone are the Lord, you alone are the Most High, Jesus Christ with the Holy Spirit, in the glory of God the Father. Amen."

What follows this are two different Scripture readings after each reading the people say "Thanks be to God". 

Next is the procession of the Gospel of Christ with the Gospel reading - the people all stand for this. 

The congregation next affirms the Catholic Faith were all present repeat "the Nicene Creed". 

While the Nicene Creed is being repeated you will want to watch out for a particular phrase,

"For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven, and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, AND BECAME MAN...."

What I believe this means in application is that God became Man without ceasing to be God. Jesus was like us in all ways EXCEPT in Sin. 

The Catholic Church does not deny that Jesus came in the flesh - The Catholic Church affirms the opposite - that Christ came in our flesh and was like us in ALL WAYS except sin. 

 

 

They have the official stand, then their esoteric or hidden tenets which are behind their true credence. Thats why there is a separation of what they do, and you can clearly see it in their idolatry, versus what they tell people. 

[hobie]

Here is a few others I came across..

"Eucharistic Adoration, Eucharistic Devotion, Perpetual Adoration
“They speak about the real presence of Christ in the bread and wine. Things relating to it are called eucharistic. A consecrated communion wafer is called a host. Hosts that are left over after Mass are kept in a tabernacle, (a large, ornate container that can be locked). When hosts are in the tabernacle, a candle is lit. This enables Catholics to know that consecrated hosts are inside, so they can kneel and pray in front of the tabernacle as a form of eucharistic devotion. The tabernacle also protects the hosts by making it difficult to steal them.

When I was a Catholic, I sometimes attended special services called Adoration
of the Blessed Sacrament. A large consecrated host was put in a monstrance [example]. (This is a large, ornate, metal container, in the basic shape of a daisy with a stem, plus a base so that it can stand up.) The monstrance looked like it was made of gold. It had a circular chamber in the middle which held a large, round host. The front of the chamber was glass, so you could see the host. Visually it looked like gold rays were coming out of the host.

The priest put the monstrance on the altar. We worshiped the host, believing
that it was Jesus. There were special prayers and special songs…At the end
of the service, we had Benediction. The priest held the monstrance and made the
sign of the cross with it. We believed that Jesus Christ Himself was blessing us.”
—Mary Ann Collins (A Former Catholic Nun)

When this adoration is, twenty-four hours a day, it is called perpetual adoration.

“…the host is comparable to a blazing fire whose flames spread out like rays all round it.’—Pere Teilhard, Mon Univers

Eucharistic Adoration and the sun god
The Eucharistic adoration or perpetual adoration of the host in the monstrance would seem to have roots in the pagan Worship of a Sun, which has been a part of many cultures throughout history.

The sacrifices offered on the altars of the [pagan] goddess were quite different
…the usual offering was a round cake, the symbol of the Sun. “The thin round cake,” says Wilkinson [“Egyptians”, vol. v. p. 353], “occurs on all altars.” This round cake was of course a symbol, both of the Sun, and of his Son, or incarnation, for the circle represented both the Sun’s disk and “The Seed.”
— John Garnier, “The Worship of the Dead: Or, The Origin and Nature of Pagan Idolatry and its bearing upon the early history of Egypt and Babylonia,” p. 345.."

"Eucharistic adoration is a Eucharistic devotional practice primarily in Western Catholicism, but also to a lesser extent in certain Lutheran and Anglican traditions, in which the Blessed Sacrament is adored by the faithful. This practice may occur either when the Eucharist is exposed, or when it is not publicly viewable because it is reserved in a place such as a church tabernacle.

Adoration is a sign of devotion to and worship of Jesus Christ, who is believed, according to Christian tradition, to be present in body, blood, soul, and divinity, under the appearance of the consecrated host, that is, sacramental bread. From a theological perspective, the adoration is a form of latria, based on the tenet of the real presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament"...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucharistic_adoration

Even the mother of Jesus is not spared being replaced......

The Virgin Mary you worship is not the historical Virgin Mary.
The Catholic Church are worshipping the Queen of Heaven, a pagan goddess.

431 A.D. - The Catholic Church introduces the worship of Mary. 104
431 A.D. - Council at Ephesus affirmed that Mary was the bearer of Jesus as “man and God”. 104
1854 - Roman Catholic Church introduce the “Immaculate conception of Mary”. 104
1904 - Roman Catholic Church “crowned” Mary. 105
1950 - Roman Catholic Church introduces the Assumption of Mary. 104'.. The Queen of Heaven..

Here are a few of the pagan gods and how they were renamed to let their worship, not veneration, continue....

"Demeter is a goddess of many festivals but most important, the Thesmophoria, which fell in late October. She became St. Demetrios, a masculine warrior saint, whose fd. is 10/26.

Aphrodite became St. Aphrodite, of which there are several, all with saints' tales that tell how she became a "repentant harlot."

Nike was picked up as Saint Nicholas, who was extremely popular wherever shipping was important. He is the patron saint of Russian, Holland and Germany, all on the north sea coast.

The Roman god Mars was originally a god who guarded wheat fields. He became St. Martin (esp. St. Martin-in-the-fields). Although March is the month associated with Mars (it was the beginning of the military campaigning season in Roman times), the major festival for him in Christian times now usually falls in February, called Mardi Gras "Great Mars."

The Roman god Quirinus became St. Cyrinus, of which there are various "equestrian warrior saints" such as St. Cyr in France, and St. Quirina, mother of St. Lawrence. The element quir- means (or was understood to mean) `horse.' These saints were very popular and widely worshiped in the Middle-Ages, in France, Holland and also eastern Christian countries.

The Roman gods known as the Lares became St. Lawrence, esp. St. Lawrence beyond-the-wall. The Lares were field gods who protected the grain growing in the fields. In Italian, he became St. Lorenzo beyond the Walls, meaning outside of the walls of the city, for which there is still a church in Rome, with many "daughter" churches which developed from it.

The Roman goddess Venus became St. Venera (with a feminized ending to her name since -us looks like a masculine ending in Latin). She had a major church in Rome in early Christian times, but that didn't last long.

The Roman gods known as the Gemini, who were protectors of sailors in Roman pagan times, became the Sanctos Geminos, with a number of forms in the various Christian religions. Santiago de Compostela, (St. James in English) became the protector of pilgrims during the Middle Ages. Forms of St. James all seem to be christianized from various forms of the Proto-Indo-European god *Yama. This god was repeatedly christianized in most of the Indo-European language groups.

The ancient Romans worshiped gods and goddesses involved with every aspect of life. Jupiter, the chief of the gods, was the god of rain and storms, while his wife, Juno, was the goddess of womanhood. Minerva was the goddess of handicrafts and wisdom; Venus, of sexual love and birth; Vesta, of the hearth and sacred fires; Ceres, of farming and harvests.

The Greeks considered Mercury, whom they called Hermes, to be the messenger of the gods, but the Romans worshiped him as the god of trade, with businesspeople celebrating his feast day to increase profits. And there were other popular deities: Mars, god of war; Castor and Pollux, gods of sea travelers; Cronos, the guardian of time; and of course Cupid, god of love, whose magic arrows caused both human beings and immortals to fall in love.

While the Romans would call generically on "the gods," each major deity still had its own cult, and worshippers would pray and conduct religious ceremonies to a specific god or goddess to implore help."... St. Valentine, Cupid and Jesus Christ

[Gustave]

5 hours ago, hobie said:

They have the official stand, then their esoteric or hidden tenets which are behind their true credence. Thats why there is a separation of what they do, and you can clearly see it in their idolatry, versus what they tell people. 

As someone who attends and responds Mass regularly Catholicism's official stand is the official stand. Obviously, this doesn't prevent people from yearning to find Jesuits hiding behind or even in their box of Cornflakes. 

I've asked you a reasonable question hobie. The Bible clearly states in hundreds of places that there was no possibility of failure with Christ. Ellen White militantly affirmed that there was a possibility of failure. If you can't see how your Christology directs your theology downstream from your Doctrine of "God" I'm not sure I can be of much help to you. 

I'll however offer you an olive branch in the following video - perhaps you will find what you seek to give you some peace if you watch it along with your Bible in hand. 

 

[Gustave]

Hobie, I'm happy to discuss the topics you raised but 1st we should settle / discuss how your current Christology affects the doctrines you hold that run downstream from that. Again, I'm asserting that Sacred Scripture & Sacred Tradition are unified in that it was impossible that Christ could have sinned, lost His Salvation and eternally ceased to exist. Because you hold Ellen White as authoritative you believe what Scripture said was impossible was in actuality possible. This is the conundrum we have before us - we should test our positions from Scripture to discover the truth of the matter.