hobie Posted November 30, 2025 Posted November 30, 2025 We see several text of the twenty four elders in scripture.. Revelation 4:10-11 10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. So what do these twenty four elders mean and where do they come from. The Levitical priesthood was divided into twenty-four courses and it was there at the time of Jesus. We see its continuance in Zacharias in Luke 1:5-9, when the angel came to tell him while he was in the temple that he would have a son, who was John the Baptist. Luke 1:5-9 5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. 7 And they had no child, because that Elisabeth was barren, and they both were now well stricken in years. 8 And it came to pass, that while he executed the priest's office before God in the order of his course, 9 According to the custom of the priest's office, his lot was to burn incense when he went into the temple of the Lord. John in Revelation, saw four and twenty elders seated upon four and twenty seats, and they worshiped the Lamb, saying, “Thou hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.. and hast made us unto our God kings and priests.” Revelation 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. Revelation 5:8-10 8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. In this we see the antitype of the twenty-four courses of priests. The chiefs, or elders, of each course have seats of honor, and they are kings and priests after the order of Melchizedek. Now we see the following in Matthew 27:50-53.. Matthew 27:50-53 50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. We see in Matthew the first fruits of those who rise from the dead after the resurrection of Christ, do they constitute the four and twenty elders? We see in Ephesians a clue: Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. The marginal reading is, he led a “multitude of captives.” Eph.4:8. Is there a answer given here. Quote
Moderators Kevin H Posted December 2, 2025 Moderators Posted December 2, 2025 You will find different suggestions as to who the 24 Elders are. Some of these suggestions may not be mutually exclusive to another. The one that I seem to hear the most is based on speculation that those who rose with the passion of Jesus, that he took to heaven with him must be the 24 elders. I've found the most convincing the view suggested by my professors from Atlantic Union College, and for a different reason, was also suggested by my professor at the Jerusalem Center for Biblical Studies. Both suggest that the 24 Elders are symbolic of how heaven actively communicates with the church on earth through the testimony of the 12 tribes (the Old Testament/TANAK) and the testimony of the 12 apostles (the New Testament.), or simply the Bible. The professors at AUC start out with the 4 living creatures. In the exodus the Hebrews camped in a square. The tabernacle was in the middle. Around the tabernacle and between the tabernacle and the other tribes the tribe of Levi (including the priests) camped. Then came the square of the other tribes. Each side consisted of three tribes, with the center tribe having a specific symbol, which also became the overall symbol for all three tribes. One one side you had Naphtali, Dan (Eagle) and Asher. The next side was Zeblum, Judah (Lion), and Issachar. Then we come to the three opposite of the Eagle tribes, these are Simeon, Rubin (Man) and Gad. Finally you have the side that consists of Manasseh, Ephraim (Ox), Benjamin. In Ezekiel we find these 4 symbols applied to angels, and many want to start with Ezekiel and skip over the camp of Israel in the exodus. What we find in Ezekiel is that although God's people are in exile, God is not saying "good riddance" but that he comes on a movable throne to be with his people in exile. Revelation has the angels for the churches; this is the exact same idea as the angels for the tribes. (also remember that the Lord is enthroned upon the praises of his people.) Thus the 4 creatures are a symbol of the church, especially in the process of having been delivered from Egypt, but not yet in the promised land; and when we are in exile from the promised land. Revelation 4 and 5 are based on this camp. We find God on his throne, but we don't find a visible tabernacle. He is in heaven and his people, his church, the 4 living creatures, are in exile/exodus on earth. We have been delivered from sin, but we are in transit on our way to the promised land. In Revelation 4 and 5 we find where we have in the exodus the Levites, in Revelation we have the 24 Elders. In the exodus the Hebrews could look towards the tabernacle, and the Levites, especially the priests, would minister to the people and bring the people what God wanted them to know. In Revelation 4 and 5, God's throne is in heaven, we don't see a literal tabernacle on earth among us. But just because God is up there in heaven, we are orphans on earth. Heaven is actively communicating with us through the 24 Elders, the Word of God. There are things called "Present Truth." We don't have someone from the tribe of Levi come and tell us. But we notice things in God's word that we did not realize before. Now, why do we move from the entire tribe of Levi to "24 Elders"? Actually, these two are connected. In the time of Jesus we had the Sanhedrin which consisted of 69 leaders, both Pharisees and Sadducee priests plus the High Priest for a total of 70. Now, the Sanhedrin did not always need all 70. They could have a quorum, considered to be "the whole Sanhedrin" with 23 members plus the high priest for 24. This is again based on the 24 courses of priests. The Sanhedrin was a religious court system while the Roman Governor lead the secular court system. Now, when both Pharisees and Sadducees meet for discussion, there were different schools of Pharisees. When the disciples went through the grain fields and rubbed the grains; most Pharisees did NOT see this as breaking the Sabbath, however, there were a few who did see this as breaking the Sabbath. If Jesus was taken to the Sanhedrin and someone said that he allowed his disciples to pluck the grain on the Sabbath, other Pharisees would argue "That's fine to do on the Sabbath. but we accuse Jesus of doing this..." which other Pharisees would see as acceptable actions, and the inquiry would go nowhere. We find how Paul was able to take advantage of seeing that there were both Pharisees and Sadducees when he was arrested. Also, Pharisees ran the spectrum from those living up to what they understood and having a relationship with God, all the way to the hypocrites, and every shade between. But generally speaking, they would be interested in fair trials. The Sadducees on the other hand were corrupt puppets of Rome. They just wanted to get rid if people who they thought were getting too popular with the people. So they would have a meeting of the Sanhedrin consisting of ONLY 23 Sadducee Priests and the High Priest. They did not even pretend to have a fair trial. They would purposely have witnesses that contradicted each other. Then they could take their victim out and stone them to death. The religious court and secular court would communicate if they were worried about someone popular with the people. If they thought they could do better charging the person with secular situations they would go to the Roman court, but if they could do a better argument with religious charges, they would go to the 24 Sadducee Sanhedrin members. Rome had different punishments, including different forms of the death sentence. The Sanhedrin only had one form of death: Stoning (which was the quickest and least painful way to die in the ancient world.) Now, if someone was really popular with the people, and the 24 Sadducee Sanhedrin took their victim out and stoned them to death, the disciples could see their late leader as a martyr. However, the Jews understood the text about whoever hangs on a tree as being cursed by God, as meaning that God would not allow his people to hang on a tree. Only God's evil enemies would hang on a tree. Thus if the 24 Sadducee Priests Sanhedrin really wanted to ruin someone's influence, they would turn them over to Rome to hang on a tree. The disciples would conclude that this person was wrong and God wanted nothing to do with him. They would have felt that they were deceived, that this person they liked was actually a servant of Satan, not God. Hanging on a tree would ruin a reputation just as if they found the person to be say a womanizer or embezzler, or anything else someone could do to convince you that they were not from God. The followers would separate from each other, they would distance themselves from what this person was teaching, so if the 24 Sadducee Priests Sanhedrin would turn their victim over to Rome, they would destroy not only the popular person, but also their ideas. The evidence in the Bible is that Jesus' interaction with the Sanhedrin was with a Sadducee court of 23 Sadducee priests and the High Priest, for 24 Sadducee priests Sanhedrin. Now, the word "Sanhedrin" is a Greek word. We had lost what the term that the Jews used. Now we know. The word translated as "Sanhedrin" was "Elders". The Levites/ Priests were to present the truth about God. The truth about Jesus. We have 24 priest Elders telling false witness about Jesus. We have 24 priest Elders who took Jesus to Pilate and instead of witnessing to Pilate to teach him the truth about Jesus, which was their job, they instead gave false witness. The Levites were Elders telling the truth about God, a Sanhedrin. Thus we have in Revelation the 24 Elders, yes, replacing the whole tribe of Levi, but also, as considered the whole tribe of Levi just as the 24 Sadducee Priests Elders/Sanhedrin represented the entire Priesthood. These are the heavenly counterpart of the 24 Sadducee Priests Elders/Sanhedrin who was telling lies about Jesus. This heavenly counterpart is telling what those 24 Sadducee Priests Elders/Sanhedrin were supposed to proclaim about Jesus both to themselves and to Pilate and to the whole world. We have the 24 false Elders on earth, and the 24 true Elders actively bringing the truth about Jesus to the 4 living creatures: God's church, free from Egypt but not yet in the promised land. The testimony of the 12 Tribes and the 12 Apostles, the living, active word of God. phkrause 1 Quote
Joe Knapp Posted December 6, 2025 Posted December 6, 2025 I do not believe the 24 Elders are symbolic. On 11/30/2025 at 9:10 PM, hobie said: and they had on their heads crowns of gold. Based on this, I believe they were from Earth. Overcomers, as Revelation calls it. Certainly Enoch and Moses would fit the title. I am inclined to believe others came from the resurrection, and were the first fruits offering. Quote
Theophilus Posted December 6, 2025 Posted December 6, 2025 Stephen Bohr has an excellent series on this. The 24 elders are the sons of God mentioned in Job--representatives of the unfallen worlds.This scenario was the one Adam would have attended as representative of this world had he not sinned/ You will notice Rev 4 speaks about God and His Creative power--no mention of Jesus-yet the 24 are there. It is in Rev 5 that Jesus returns to Heaven. This would be found in his "The Return of the War Hero" Here are the various videos:Mission Accomplished The Return of the War Hero Who Are The 24 Elders? Earth's Two Representatives Redeemed From The Earth? Future History and Functions also Bohr provides free downloadable or printable notes to this series: https://sumtv.org/study-notes/the-24-elders (He has tons of other topics done in depth free) The Buy button on there is if you want them to print the notes for you--the PDF button is for the free notes. He made his notes free years ago. phkrause 1 Quote
hobie Posted December 14, 2025 Author Posted December 14, 2025 On 12/5/2025 at 11:37 PM, Joe Knapp said: I do not believe the 24 Elders are symbolic. Based on this, I believe they were from Earth. Overcomers, as Revelation calls it. Certainly Enoch and Moses would fit the title. I am inclined to believe others came from the resurrection, and were the first fruits offering. That is my thoughts also... Quote
hobie Posted December 14, 2025 Author Posted December 14, 2025 On 12/6/2025 at 7:24 AM, Theophilus said: Stephen Bohr has an excellent series on this. The 24 elders are the sons of God mentioned in Job--representatives of the unfallen worlds.This scenario was the one Adam would have attended as representative of this world had he not sinned/ You will notice Rev 4 speaks about God and His Creative power--no mention of Jesus-yet the 24 are there. It is in Rev 5 that Jesus returns to Heaven. This would be found in his "The Return of the War Hero" Here are the various videos:Mission Accomplished The Return of the War Hero Who Are The 24 Elders? Earth's Two Representatives Redeemed From The Earth? Future History and Functions also Bohr provides free downloadable or printable notes to this series: https://sumtv.org/study-notes/the-24-elders (He has tons of other topics done in depth free) The Buy button on there is if you want them to print the notes for you--the PDF button is for the free notes. He made his notes free years ago. Hmm, that is a new one for me. Will have to look over it.. Quote
Sherman Xavier Posted December 19, 2025 Posted December 19, 2025 The 24 Elders are the First 24 Men Created before Adam who sit on their seats before throne. The First Fruits of men. Quote
Members phkrause Posted December 19, 2025 Members Posted December 19, 2025 50 minutes ago, Sherman Xavier said: The 24 Elders are the First 24 Men Created before Adam who sit on their seats before throne. The First Fruits of men. Can I ask where you get that from? If you're talking about anyone being created before Adam on this planet I don't see that at all!! If you're talking about someone being created before Adam as in someone on a previous world somewhere out there in the Universe I might agree with you there, because in Job it talks about the sons of God getting together. So from that I would gather that these sons of God are representative's from other worlds that didn't sin. So maybe the 24 elders could be one from each of these other worlds?? Anyway just a thought!! Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Joe Knapp Posted December 20, 2025 Posted December 20, 2025 Quote The 24 elders are the sons of God mentioned in Job--representatives of the unfallen worlds. But they have crowns. That leads me to believe they are overcomers. It seems to me God would want overcomers in a leadership role in heaven. In the end, it does not really matter. What ever God's plan is, it is perfect. Kevin H and phkrause 2 Quote
Theophilus Posted December 20, 2025 Posted December 20, 2025 But we are given crowns as well, even though we will give them back. These elders were there before (rev 4)Jesus returned to Heaven- in Rev 5.They are representatives of unfallen worlds--a place that Adam would have had too, had he not sinned. This is why Satan appears at the sons of God meeting--Adam lost his place. phkrause 1 Quote
PersonX Posted December 26, 2025 Posted December 26, 2025 On 12/19/2025 at 4:46 PM, phkrause said: Can I ask where you get that from? If you're talking about anyone being created before Adam on this planet I don't see that at all!! If you're talking about someone being created before Adam as in someone on a previous world somewhere out there in the Universe I might agree with you there, because in Job it talks about the sons of God getting together. So from that I would gather that these sons of God are representative's from other worlds that didn't sin. So maybe the 24 elders could be one from each of these other worlds?? Anyway just a thought!! When I ssid before Adam. I was refering to Rev 4:4 the 24 celestial bodies of men. Quote
PersonX Posted December 27, 2025 Posted December 27, 2025 Just now, PersonX said: When I said before Adam. I was referring to Rev 4:4 the 24 celestial bodies of men created before the throne. Lets go directly to the Elders to see what they have to say about what/who they are and where they come from. (KJV) Rev. 6: 12 -17 The opening of the 6th seal. Ch 7: 4-10. 144,000 are sealed and lo a great multitude which no man could number... ( If they could be numbered what body of men would that man come from?) Clothed in white robes.... Verse 11... All the Angels are there, the beast and the Elders. Verse 13... And one of the Elders answered saying... What are these arrayed in white robes? And Whence came they? Isn't this the very same question we ask of the Lord concerning the Elders? Verse 14... Sir, (Used as a respectful way to address a man) thou knowest... So, to John this is a rhetorical question. Not used to gather information but to point out the obvious. And he said to me... (begining to point out the obvious) answering the second question. These are they which came out of great tribulation and washed robes in the blood of the Lamb. Just as the Elders Rev 5:8-10. Verse 15... Therefore are they before the throne of God. Just as the four beast and Elders. Rev 4:8-11. Back to the first of the 2 questions. What are these which are arrayed in white robes are revealed in Rev Ch 14:1-4. A Lamb stood on mount Sion with 144,00 singing in front of the 4 beast and the 24 Elders and no man could learn that song (if it could be learned what group of men would that man come from?) but 144,000. Just as the 4 beast and 24 Elders sing in front of the Lamb Rev 5:9. These are they which wrere not defiled.... Just as the Elders. These are they which follow the Lamb.... Just as Elders. These were redeemed from among men.... The Elders are redeemed from among the heavenly celestial bodies. Being the First Fruits unto The Lord and The Lamb ... Just as the Elders. Rev 4:4 Quote
PersonX Posted December 27, 2025 Posted December 27, 2025 On 12/19/2025 at 4:46 PM, phkrause said: Can I ask where you get that from? If you're talking about anyone being created before Adam on this planet I don't see that at all!! If you're talking about someone being created before Adam as in someone on a previous world somewhere out there in the Universe I might agree with you there, because in Job it talks about the sons of God getting together. So from that I would gather that these sons of God are representative's from other worlds that didn't sin. So maybe the 24 elders could be one from each of these other worlds?? Anyway just a thought!! If i may ask you a question? Why do you believe/understand the Sons of God mentioned in Job Ch. 1:6 to be from other worlds?. Quote
PersonX Posted December 27, 2025 Posted December 27, 2025 On 12/19/2025 at 4:46 PM, phkrause said: Can I ask where you get that from? If you're talking about anyone being created before Adam on this planet I don't see that at all!! If you're talking about someone being created before Adam as in someone on a previous world somewhere out there in the Universe I might agree with you there, because in Job it talks about the sons of God getting together. So from that I would gather that these sons of God are representative's from other worlds that didn't sin. So maybe the 24 elders could be one from each of these other worlds?? Anyway just a thought!! If i may ask you a question? Why do you believe the Sons of God mentioned in Job 1:6 are from other worlds? Stan 1 Quote
Stan Posted December 29, 2025 Posted December 29, 2025 If you check out the "Jain" religion, they claim that the world is managed by 24 elders. It is one of the oldest religions with documentation of that. They are considered by those who consider things to be the most intellectual groups that have ever existed. uch ofmany of the sciences came from them. I have found them fascinating. Stan phkrause and Kevin H 2 Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com
Gustave Posted December 29, 2025 Posted December 29, 2025 3 hours ago, Stan said: If you check out the "Jain" religion, they claim that the world is managed by 24 elders. It is one of the oldest religions with documentation of that. They are considered by those who consider things to be the most intellectual groups that have ever existed. uch ofmany of the sciences came from them. I have found them fascinating. Stan Agree with you! They are fascinating! phkrause 1 Quote
Sherman Xavier Posted December 29, 2025 Posted December 29, 2025 6 hours ago, Stan said: If you check out the "Jain" religion, they claim that the world is managed by 24 elders. It is one of the oldest religions with documentation of that. They are considered by those who consider things to be the most intellectual groups that have ever existed. uch ofmany of the sciences came from them. I have found them fascinating. Stan Hey Stan, Thanks for the info, i'm going to check it out. Quote
PersonX Posted December 30, 2025 Posted December 30, 2025 12 hours ago, Stan said: If you check out the "Jain" religion, they claim that the world is managed by 24 elders. It is one of the oldest religions with documentation of that. They are considered by those who consider things to be the most intellectual groups that have ever existed. uch ofmany of the sciences came from them. I have found them fascinating. Stan I can see why you're fasinated by it. Quote
Joe Knapp Posted February 6 Posted February 6 I suppose it is possible either way. They could be from the beginning or after Pentecost. However, they are mentioned after Pentecost. The Adventist view is in the garden of Eden, there was Jesus and the humans. God has people he is in direct contact with through the Holy Spirit. There is no need for Elders for these people. However, in the Judgment, these Elders may play an important role. Why do they have crowns? A Sign of authority. Just as Judges have uniforms today, to signify authority. But there is no need for these people to manage/judge the unfallen worlds. It is my belief, they were put there to deal with the sin problem from Earth. Quote
Joe Knapp Posted February 7 Posted February 7 The Bible tells us that the redeemed judge the fallen world. Who better to do that then those who lived on this planet. But who judges in the judgment of the living? It makes sense to me that the first fruits, that Jesus took to heaven, will be the judge of those who are risen just before the second coming. Then the redeemed will judge the balance in the 1000 years that follow. BTW, according to EGW, before the coming of Jesus, there will be two resurrections. One for the dead in Christ, and one for those who killed Jesus, so they can see Him coming in glory. Who decides which people are in those events? I believe it is the redeemed, first fruits. AKA 24 elders. Quote
hobie Posted March 21 Author Posted March 21 On 12/5/2025 at 11:37 PM, Joe Knapp said: I do not believe the 24 Elders are symbolic. Based on this, I believe they were from Earth. Overcomers, as Revelation calls it. Certainly Enoch and Moses would fit the title. I am inclined to believe others came from the resurrection, and were the first fruits offering. Well, we have Elijah and Moses... Matthew 17:3-4 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. And then Enoch... Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. And then wave of saints which we have no idea of numbers or names... Matthew 27:52-53 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Enabled 1 Quote
Joe Knapp Posted March 27 Posted March 27 And if Enoch and Moses are NOT part of the 24 elders, what is their role in Heaven? It seems to me that these 24 Elders are part of the investigative judgment. Who better to assist Jesus in this process, but 24 people from the Earth who overcame sin. Quote
Moderators Kevin H Posted Monday at 11:33 PM Moderators Posted Monday at 11:33 PM On 3/27/2026 at 5:52 AM, Joe Knapp said: And if Enoch and Moses are NOT part of the 24 elders, what is their role in Heaven? It seems to me that these 24 Elders are part of the investigative judgment. Who better to assist Jesus in this process, but 24 people from the Earth who overcame sin. Once again, I find the evidence presented at Atlantic Union College and The Jerusalem Center for Biblical Studies that they are the testimony of the 12 tribes and 12 apostles telling the truth about Jesus in contrast to the 24 Sadducee Priests, members of the Sanhedrin (A Greek word, in Aramaic the word means "Elders") that inquired and brought Jesus to Pilate and cried "crucify him" when their job should have been to tell the truth about Jesus, but they told lies about him. Or that the 24 Elders are the testimony of scripture where Heaven directly communicates with us over history. Jesus does not need assistance in the investigative judgment. Jesus is simply, on the heavenly side, reviewing with the angels and unfallen worlds the lives of people who in what ever way claimed to have accepted God; and looks at the two questions as to whether or not they truly accepted the Lord into their lives, and if they did, what difference does it make? This helps the unfallen understand their own salvation better. And on the earthly side, we are living in an age where more and more discoveries are made to allow us to study the Bible in a deeper way then ever before. As we learn more about the Bible, we can learn more about the God of the Bible, and as we behold Him we become changed. phkrause 1 Quote
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