The Rebellion of Women

[Hanseng]

It started in Eden. Documented there. Paul comments on the fall in 2 Timothy, noting that woman was derived from man, that she was first deceived; consequently, she is not to teach or usurp authority over man. That expression "usurp authority" is based upon a word which referred to murdering someone or suicide. Lexicographers also say it refers to acting in an autocratic way. Sounds like a very strong word, referring to a murderer or suicide, yet this is the word the Bible uses in reference to the fall and the roll of women. Even so, administrators, want to hand over authority to women. They don't need to usurp it. Men are giving it to them, not unlike Adam who just went along with Eve, essentially handing his authority in the garden over to a rebel. Paul lays the blame for the fall on Eve, saying Adam was not in the transgression.

This is somewhat inconvenient for SDA, whose spiritual head has been more or less, a woman, Ellen G. White. Interestingly, some SDA scholars admit that the IJ doctrine cannot be derived from Scripture, yet they accept it because Sr. White says its true. True or not, if a man doesn't believe its biblical, accepting it on the basis of "Sr. White says" is handing authority to her, abrogating his own roll in defining faith. Perilous path to take.

 

[Hanseng]

Ge 3:16  To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you."

This verse rests between the curses upon the serpent and the curses upon Adam. Pain in childbirth and submission to the husband are the curses placed upon Eve in Eden for her transgression.

One wonders what would/could have happened had Adam chose to not sin?

Possibilities: The entire world would not have fallen. Eve would have died and a new wife created. Atonement would have been made for her sin alone. Eve brought unimaginable trouble into this world through her sin. Paul does not count the fall to Adam in 1 Timothy but to Eve. Eve was deceived by the serpent, not Adam.

Correction to post above. The passage is from 1 Timothy 3 11-15.

 

[Gustave]

Spoken as a fabulous Muslim. 

Quote

Sunnah: Sahih al-Bukhari:

On `Id ul Fitr or `Id ul Adha Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) (p.b.u.h) went out to the Musalla. After finishing the prayer, he delivered the sermon and ordered the people to give alms. He said, "O people! Give alms." Then he went towards the women and said. "O women! Give alms, for I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-Fire were you (women)." The women asked, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! What is the reason for it?" He replied, "O women! You curse frequently, and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. O women, some of you can lead a cautious wise man astray."

Sahih al-Bukhari 1462 - Obligatory Charity Tax (Zakat) - كتاب الزكاة - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

[Gregory Matthews]

Yes. the SDA denomlination whilch on some levels rejects women lin ministry  has a co-folunder who is a female!  [NOTE:  On other levels of the SDA denomination women aare fully accepted in ministry. ]  The public at large fails to understand this incostent reality.  That is a valid point.  Elen White was issued the credentials of an ordained minister, for a number of years.  No, she did not pastor a SDA Church as she ministered to the denomlination as a whole.  We have many men in administration who are considered clery and do not pastor SDA congregations.

[Hanseng]

2 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Ellen White was issued the credentials of an ordained minister, for a number of years.  No, she did not pastor an SDA Church as she ministered to the denomination as a whole. 

That's very true, Chaplain Matthews. That is not the situation facing the denomination today.  Women are being given pastoral positions, i.e., overseeing congregations. This happens even though the congregation itself, or a large number of the members, do not want a female pastor. Years ago, there was a YouTube video of an interview with a young woman who was placed over a congregation. Half the congregation stopped attending. She cried as she described what happened. This is DEI at work in the denomination. The video was only up a short time.

 

 

[Hanseng]

1Co 14:34  Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience <5293>, as also saith the law.

Eph 5:22  Wives, submit yourselves <5293> unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

Eph 5:24  Therefore as the church is subject <5293> unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing.

1 Pe. 3:1 ¶  Likewise, ye wives, [be] in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
2  While they behold your chaste conversation [coupled] with fear.
3  Whose adorning let it not be that outward [adorning] of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
4  But [let it be] the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, [even the ornament] of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
5  For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
6  Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
7  Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with [them] according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

Titus 2:3  The aged women likewise, that [they be] in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4  That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5  [To be] discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
 

[Asia Joe]

1 hour ago, Hanseng said:

ears ago, there was a YouTube video of an interview with a young woman who was placed over a congregation. Half the congregation stopped attending. She cried as she described what happened. This is DEI at work in the denomination. The video was only up a short time.

 

I remember that video. 

[Asia Joe]

Well as an old man, I have seen the change in American women. They have been fighting American men for 30-40 years. That fight has spilled into the church. Women's attitude toward men has changed completely in that time. 

I am not surprised by their need to assert themselves in the church. 

[Asia Joe]

There are two YouTube channels by some younger guys. They look like late twenty or early thirties. Their channels are about the christian church and how they have driven the men out.  How the church has been feminized. It seems to me that they are talking about mainline Baptists, but the things they say can also apply to Adventist's.

Although even the Baptists will not allow Ordained women.  Imagine that. A day when the Baptists are more strict than the Adventist's.

 

[Hanseng]

Women in The Church (III) - LCMS

[Hanseng]

A central issue is tithing. Many people have been taught that we are obliged to tithe to avoid the curse of Malachi 3. Our responsibility is to tithe; then it is the responsibility of the conference to handle the tithe. We were taught to trust God  to see that the tithe is responsibly dispersed. If the conference decides to use the money to pay women  or homosexuals to pastor churches, it is not our problem. What the administration decides is what God wants, more or less. As long as we give, we are OK, so we are taught. I guess anyone foolish enough to believe that would be fine having a female or homosexual pastor.

Concordia Seminary, St. Louis does not admit women into the ministerial track. They can become deaconesses, not pastors. If I remember correctly one of the rationales for admitting women into the pastorate was that the SDA seminary had taken their money for professional training. It would be unjust to deprive them of the opportunity to use the education they paid for. Midwestern Baptist seminary has an MDiv program for women; however, it plainly states that this cannot lead to a pastoral position The SDA denomination has simply been poorly managed or cleverly so, on this issue. These t wo major denominations  recognize what SDA do not.  Women should not be overseers of congregations

[Gregory Matthews]

One lkpoint:  The SDA Chlurch does alow a celebate homosexual to be a SDA pastor.  klkIF that person can not remain celebate, that person will lno longer be SDA Clergy.

A SDA pastor who is not married is expected to remain celebate.   If not celebate, klthe person will not remain a SDA pastor.

 

[Hanseng]

1 hour ago, Gregory Matthews said:

The SDA Church does allow a celibate homosexual to be a SDA pastor. 

The Glendale City church had an openly gay man on the pastoral staff for years. He was  married to another man. His denominational service has been celebrated in certain circles. Somehow I doubt that he was celibate. He may well have been, never asked. I assume that two men married to each other, poster boys of a sort for gay clergy, are homosexuals.

An acquaintance of mine took LSD and attended church one Sabbath. She described seeing the pastor preaching from the pulpit. One side of his face was satanic, the other side angelic. He spoke out of both sides of his mouth, one speaking truth, the other speaking lies. That illustrates the SDA position on homosexuality, at least in one case. Policy wise, indulgent homosexuals are not allowed. In practice they are.

People sexually attracted to members of the same gender are bent. They don't belong in clergical work. There are plenty of other lines of work they can  go into.

~30 years ago, the Glendale City church had a guest Sabbath school teacher. I wondered why they would import a non-SDA clergy to teach Sabbath school. After her introduction, a person in the class announced that the woman in question was a lesbian. That made sense, even though I had/have no way of verifying the charge. Considering that congregations recent history, it wouldn't surprise me. Pastoral staff introducing homosexuals to congregants as spiritual guides? Can't make this stuff up

[Hanseng]

Some homosexuals mistakenly assume that being married somehow sanctifies their sexual relationship. Like making a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Working on the HIV unit of a major medical center, I met a patient with end stage disease, a death sentence in those days. His lover had died recently. He knew he was next. During a conversation, he said,  "I'm gay. If people don't like it, they can go F* themselves."  Ironic that a man with a terminal illness had a "healthy" view of life. He didn't need the approval of others to be who he was, no church, no mama, no papa, no Uncle Sam [gay marriage illegal then]. I gave him a copy of Steps to Christ, a book he later spoke highly of. Hope to see him in heaven.

[Gustave]

I don't have a dog in this fight but can see Hanseng's point. The LCMS, in some areas, seem even more strict then what I'm used to. During the Liturgy women can and do read Sacred Scripture. The Gospel is always read by the Priest. Myself, I would be shocked & traumatized if a woman officiated as a Priest but that's just me looking at this from my faith Tradition. I have a feeling that if a woman officiated at Mass 2/3rds of the Church I attend would simply get up and walk out immediately. The notion is so completely out of the question I might vapor lock right there. 

[Hanseng]

There are three spheres in which human act in the world-- the church. the home, and the town square. The NT addresses the church and the home.  The NT defines women's rolls in these two areas. It does not address her roll in  secular society.

Deborah, described as a prophetess, exercised herself in the sphere of "secular" society. Deborah functioned in the roll described in Deuteronomy chapter 1, 16, 17, and 25:1. She is recorded as judging  secular/civil matters.

Miriam and Huldah were also prophetesses (Ex. 15:20; 2 Ki 22:14).

Leviticus 19:5 describes the judgments to be made in matters of weight, length, or volume. The daughters of Zelophehad appeared before Moses, Eleazar the priest, and the leaders of the congregation seeking inheritance rights. They met with them at the door of the tabernacle. This was a case, presumably too complicated for the lesser judges to decide (Numbers 27).

[Kevin H]

On 10/23/2026 at 8:11 PM, Hanseng said:

That's very true, Chaplain Matthews. That is not the situation facing the denomination today.  Women are being given pastoral positions, i.e., overseeing congregations. This happens even though the congregation itself, or a large number of the members, do not want a female pastor. Years ago, there was a YouTube video of an interview with a young woman who was placed over a congregation. Half the congregation stopped attending. She cried as she described what happened. This is DEI at work in the denomination. The video was only up a short time.

 

 

But there were churches in Mrs. White's day that were both raised up by women, and, when new churches were raised up, say by Elder Loughborough, he would ordain someone to pastor the church as he moved on. He ordained the best person he could find for the job, whether it be a man or a woman. It did not matter to him and others who worked like him raising up churches then ordaining someone to carry on in overseeing the congragations. 

The General Conference in the 1800s decided that for these women, that the church should for a temporary period of time, issue their papers without the word "Ordained" until more church members could be educated to the fact that it was indeed Biblical to ordain women, then these women were to start to have the papers with the word "Ordained." In the meanwhile these women performed the same job as the men, got the same pay as the men and their husbands received the same stipend that the ordain men's wife received.  By the way, Mrs. White was free to receive this same paperwork for the work she did, so why did she not take this paper instead of the one that included the word "Ordained"? She could have done the same work with the same pay with either set of papers. Shall we rename those papers the rebellion of Ellen White? 

Were our pioneers wrong? Did God give you the message that He goofed when he did not tell Mrs. White to write to the people like Loughborough and Daniels and the others and tell them that this was a wrong action and that they needed to stop ordaining women, to stop having women oversee congregations, and to stop promising them that their paperwork that did not have the word "Ordained" was to only be a temporary situation? 

This IS our history. If we did not want to ordain women we should have done what those other churches you mentioned did. But our Pioneers believed what they were doing was wrong and that we should ordain women. Our General Conference promised that after educating more members that women's ordination was indeed Biblical that the temporary papers without the world ordained would be discontinued and that they would then get the same ordination papers as the Men and as Mrs. White.

[Hanseng]

Our "pioneers" were wrong about a lot of things. Some of those thing they were wrong about have since been repudiated, others have not. The pioneers wanted to educate the members that it is Biblical to ordain women?  Some denominations disagree, e.g., ELCA and Southern Baptists, SDA  Ordaining women to pastoral rolls is highly controversial among SDA today.  Rejected by two GC sessions, the rebellion continues. Denominational entities are  ignoring the GC. The same thing is happening with homosexual pastors. It's only beginning. Probably the ideal would be a lesbian pastor. No doubt some hope in their heart for that. 

Miriam, a prophetess, held a leadership roll comparable to Moses and Aaron (Micah 6:3); Huldah spoke authoritatively in the name of the Lord (2 Ki. 22:14); nevertheless, Paul denied women spiritual leadership of congregations due to their roll in the fall of man in a plain passage addressing who is qualified to oversee congregations. Women are not. They are fatally flawed in that respect, the transgression being laid upon Eve and her descendants (1 Ti 2:14 et al.) Women still suffer pain in childbirth, consequent to the fall. The Sabbath is still a special day. Man rules over woman, due to her roll in bringing death and destruction to the human race:

Gen. 3:16 "¶  Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." Various translations, e.g., ESV, NRSV, LXXE, NASB, NIV are unanimous, "He will rule over you." 

If you want a female to be your pastor, or a homosexual, for that matter, not a problem for me. My interest is in correctly interpreting the Bible.  Appeals to history and polity are not Scripture.