Demo Thoughts on War

[Woody]

"If we wait for the danger to become clear, it could be too late" Sen. Joseph Biden Sept. 4, 2002

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process" Nancy Pelosi Dec. 16, 1998

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction" Ted Kennedy Sept. 27 2002

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them" Carl Levin Sept. 19, 2002

"I will be voting to give the president of the United States the authority to use force - if necessary - to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security" John F. Kerry Oct. 9, 2002

"in the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and bioligical weapons stock, his missile delivery capabiblity, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terroristst, including al-Qaida members ... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons" Hillary Clinton Oct. 10, 2002.

Were these Democrats LYING to us?

[olger]

Shame on you. Those democrats are not to be questioned.

:)

[bevin]

The UN Weapons Inspectors went to Iraq

The UN Weapons Inspectors told everyone that they weren't finding any WMD

Bush said he was certain they were there

The Weapons Inspectors said "so tell us where to look"

Bush did

They looked

There weren't any there

Bush said he was certain they were there

The Weapons Inspectors said "so tell us where to look"

Bush did not

The Weapons Inspectors said there is no evidence of them

Bush insulted them

Bush invaded

There weren't any WMD

We have spent $500B and killed >100,000 Iraqis

The place is less safe than it was to start with

Bush has made the biggest blunder in US Foreign relations in a VERY long time

/Bevin

[bevin]

Oh yes, did I mention that Bush and Cheney told went to the USA Intelligence community and cherry-picked the evidence and spun the reports the way they wanted them to go - and suppressed those who were expressing doubts

It's Bush's way - fire people who tell you what you don't want to hear

/Bevin

[Woody]

So ... why did the Demos mislead us so much and support and encourage this war?

[Bravus]

...to the catalogue bevin laid out, yes, I agree that the Democrats joined in the fervour for this war, as the quotes Redwood brought show. To their shame, and they were every bit as wrong as the administration to the extent that they supported the war. It's one of several reasons I don't think Hillary should be the presidential nominee.

[phkrause]

They are all the same. Makes absolutely no difference. Each party is going to spin it whatever and whichever way they can. To look as good as they can.

pkrause

[Bravus]

Nope, I used to think they are all the same before the 2000 election. Now I know better.

[Woody]

I think the Master of Spin was Clinton. I give him more credit than any president before and since.

[Dr. Shane]

There is no rational reason whatsoever to believe that if Al Gore had won the 2000 election we wouldn't have gone to war in Iraq. Gore, too, was playing the drums of war in 1998.

The partisan liberals will sing Bush lied and that he cherry picked intelligence. The straight and honest truth is that we had bad intelligence. It was bad intelligence that failed to prevent 9/11 and bad intelligence that led us to war in Iraq.

Honestly, after 9/11, if Gore had been President, I don't think he would have dragged his feet and messed around with the UN as long as GW Bush did. We were attacked in September of 2001 and invaded Iraq in March of 2003. I seriously doubt that Gore would have waited that long.

However, while the WMD intel was bad, after invading we learned of the Oil-for-Food scandel and Saddam's plans to get sanctions lifted and resume his WMD programs. So, in the long run, we probably prevented something bad by invading but had we known everything correctly (which was most likely impossible) there would have been a better way to handle it.

[Bravus]

But it's not just the war, it's the gutting of environmental protections, the stripping of individual freedom, the detention of citizens and non-citizens without habeas corpus, the torture... the tax cuts and massive spending increases, the list goes on and on. Worst president ever, by a wide margin.

[Bravus]

And this is not just partisanship: I don't say the same about his father, or even about Reagan.

[D. Allan]

Gore looks better and better, doesn't he.

[David Koot]

Gore looks better and better, doesn't he.

Oh help! The Dan Quayle of the liberals!

[Robert]

Do you remember that Twilight Zone episode with this 10 year old brat named Anthony who wished people into the corn field or made it snow on a hot July day? Do you remember when he said, "You're a bad man! You're a very bad man!" Well, that's what I think of Bush.

"You're a bad man! You're a very bad man Mr. Bush!"

[Robert]

But it's not just the war, it's the gutting of environmental protections, the stripping of individual freedom, the detention of citizens and non-citizens without habeas corpus, the torture... the tax cuts and massive spending increases, the list goes on and on. Worst president ever, by a wide margin.

And the outsoucring of jobs that his buddies in Corporate America want!

[Dr. Shane]

Take the issues separately.

Tax Cuts

These turned around a slowing economy and pulled us out of a recession. Revenues are climbing and the budget deficit last year was actually lower than projected because of increased revenues. Hard for me to criticize him for that.

Spending Increases

The only spending that has increased are defense and homeland security items. We can't have a war without spending going up. It is enough for the anti-war crowd to be anti-war but they shouldn't make two issues out of what is really only one.

Suspending Habeas Corpus

This is allowed for in the US Constitution and this is not the first President to have done it. President Lincoln actually defied the Supreme Court in this matter. President GW Bush has followed all the Supreme Court rulings that have been against him. So which is worse?

Torture

While I disagree with the Administration's position on water boarding, it has passed Congress. Most of the torture that has taken place has not been supported by the Administration and those guilty have been placed on trial for it.

Yet, are we so naive to believe this did not take place in previous wars? I can hardly believe otherwise.

Al Gore Jr.

There is no way to know how Al Gore would have managed these issues. Spending most certainly would have went up. Taxes probably wouldn't have been cut and the recession would have likely toiled on longer and more Americans would have lost their jobs. Al Gore served in war so he may have been more aggressive. He wasn't a pot-smoking peace advocate so there is no reason to believe he would have been soft on terrorism.

[Bravus]

But he would have (I hope and think) been smart enough to realise that you fight terrorism with a police force, not an army.

And I think giving Bush and the tax cuts credit for the economic recovery might be a little premature, with what's happening to the value of the dollar and with the subprime mortgage disaster hiding just around the corner.

[Dr. Shane]

I don't see how cutting taxes directly impacted the value of the dollar. Of course the Fed lowering interest rates impacted the value of the dollar.

Given Gore's rhetoric while vice-president and his military background, we have no reason to believe he would not have used the military to fight the war on terror.

[Amelia]

Hey you guys!!! This belongs over in World Affairs. Who left that door open?

[olger]

Bravus, do you live in the United States?

olger

[Amelia]

No, Mr B is an Aussie

[Dr. Shane]

And I trust that if Al Gore had become president and went to war in Iraq that Mr. B. would be just as critical of him as he is of President Bush.

[Woody]

Yes ... Mr. B is the most level headed fair guy around here. Even if I do disagree with him.

[Bravus]

Thanks for the kind words. I'm almost as critical of Hillary for her on-going support of the war as I am of W, although I think once the (bad) decision to go in was made that he and his people's mismanagement made it even worse. If Gore had gone in and messed it up as badly you can bet I would be as critical of him.