Acceptable false beliefs:

[D. Allan]

: "Even false beliefs might be acceptable to God; an honest doubter with a few intelligent insights may impress God more than a smug, unreflective, uncreative believer." Jay Newman, The Foundations of Religious Tolerance

Is this worth thinking about or should we call the garbage collector?

[Woody]

AMEN !!! Thank you D. Allan. This is a good one I am putting in my Bible.

[olger]

"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God."

"Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief."

[Woody]

Another AMEN. Do you have the cites for those Olger. They are good.

[olger]

You will find them in the Good Book, Comrade.

1 Tim.

Heb 3

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

: "Even false beliefs might be acceptable to God; an honest doubter with a few intelligent insights may impress God more than a smug, unreflective, uncreative believer." Jay Newman, The Foundations of Religious Tolerance

Is this worth thinking about or should we call the garbage collector?

Heh, well, two comments:

1) It's not about anyone's ability to impress God in the first place.

2) I know this much: probably the one person I've ever met who I'm most impressed by happens to currently be agnostic. She has pretty much reasoned her way out of any current ability to ever Believe conclusively and for absolute certain that He's even real. Sure, I feel bad for her, 'cause she's missing out on a lot of Peace right now. But I've also prayed for her and simply challenged God to give her the same chance He gave me... My price was very high: Prove Yourself or lose me (unBelievers tend to be that bold, you know, heh). Hers is admittedly the same price, no more, no less. So, I've Asked God to just help her to understand everything that He's helped me to understand. It's all been His Work, not mine. Nor should it be hers. In fact, I'd like to ask everyone here to keep her in mind in prayer as well. Her name is simply Heidi.

Anyway, I personally don't believe it's up to us to prove anything to God: I Believe it's the other way around, and that He in many ways already has, to those of us who already Believe

[D. Allan]

Quote:

Anyway, I personally don't believe it's up to us to prove anything to God: I Believe it's the other way around,....

Oh yes! thank you for that, ChildofGod.

[Gerr]

: "Even false beliefs might be acceptable to God; an honest doubter with a few intelligent insights may impress God more than a smug, unreflective, uncreative believer." Jay Newman, The Foundations of Religious Tolerance

Is this worth thinking about or should we call the garbage collector?

God may accept people with some false beliefs, but I doubt that ANY false belief is acceptable to Him.

Gerry

[heidi]

I have to say that I agree with Newman's quote. I hope I never come up with all of the right answers, but hold on to a few false beliefs until the end, so that I have a reason to keep challenging and re-evaluating my faith.

I wonder if it's even possible for us to have true beliefs here on earth. We do "see through a mirror darkly, but then we shall see face to face." If we had to come up with all of the right answers here on earth, none of us would find ourselves among the saved. At least I know I wouldn't. I think God values the attitude and the heart of a person, and is willing to accept almost any of the crazy beliefs we come up with, as long as they come from the heart of true believers, seekers, and disciples.

Heidi

[Gail]

Hi, Heidi!

Good to see you on! :)

[skyblue888]

heidi, I hope you don't mind taking a look at the following quotations. Just something to think about.

"He shall teach you all things." 1 John 2:20,27.

"And when the Holy Spirit shall come into your hearts, to impress the truth into your souls, you will not let it go easily. You have gained such an experience in searching the Scriptures that every point is established. And it is important that you continue to search the Scriptures." Review and Herald, April 3, 1888.

"By the Spirit, He said, He would manifest Himself to them. 'The comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things.' No more will you say, I cannot comprehend. [color:#990000]No longer will you see through a glass darkly." Desire of Ages, p.670.

1 John 2:20,27 shows that the Holy Spirit is the Teacher of God's people. We are at the school of Christ when we allow the Spirit to teach us, and who can teach like Him? :)

[heidi]

Those are excellent quotes and I agree mostly with their sentiments. They definitely made me sit down and think about what I do believe, re-evaluating my position. I simply think that God "will teach us all things" in his own time and manner. I don't think we will ever find the answers to all the questions here on earth.

I don't know how to do the fancy "quote boxes" like you all do, but in the second quote you cite, the author believes it is important that we continue to search the Scriptures. If we figure it all out, have all the right beliefs, and have every point established, what is the point of searching the Scriptures? It seems to me that the point of studying something diligently is to learn something from it. Once we've learned all the Bible and the Holy Spirit have to explain to us, why would we need to keep studying them? Long ago I learned all that my Algebra textbook had to teach, and so I left it far behind me, because I don't need it anymore. If I understood every aspect of God, I might cease to study about him and try to press on alone, which would be about the worst mistake I could make.

I love the line you've highlighted in the quote from Desire of Ages: "No more will you say, I cannot comprehend. No longer will you see through a glass darkly". It seems to me like a beautiful promise for the end of time and the end of sin. Perhaps it wasn't meant that way, but that's how I read it.

For my part, I intend to remain a student at Jesus' school for as long as I live. I guess I equate having all of the answers and no longer holding any false ideas with graduating. Once you've figured out all the things you need to know in college, they give you a diploma and you move on. Christianity isn't about a single goal, some sort of graduation, but about growing towards that goal even if we never reach it this side of eternity. At least, that's my take on it.

[skyblue888]

Heidi, thanks for your candid answer. I fully agree with you that at the school of Christ, one never graduates. Here on this earth we may be established on every point which is necessary for our salvation but there will always be something new to learn and that throughout eternity. The soul will always cry out for more and the Spirit's answer will always be, "Much more."

If you own a copy of the book The Great Controversy, I suggest you read the last pages of the last chapter! I am sure you will like it and agree with it.

As to this sentence, "No more will you say, I cannot comprehend. No longer will you see through a glass darkly," I totally agree with you that it is a beautiful end-time promise when the Holy Spirit is to be poured out in large measure. The same thing happened at Pentecost. It was then that the disciples of Christ had the eyes of their understanding open and what they had seen through a glass darkly the whole time they had been with Jesus, now they could see clearly!

One more thing, being a student at the school of Christ means that though we are being taught day by day by the greatest Teacher the world has ever known, the Holy Spirit always reminds us that "If any man thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know." 1 Cor.8:2. And "If any man thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself." Gal.6:3.

Back to you Heidi!

sky

p.s. When one compares what he knows with what God knows, it is then that he begins to get a glimpse of how much he knows!

[heidi]

I completely agree with your sentiments. I especially appreciate how you have quotes to back up your statements, whereas I have only my own opinions to share. It amazes me how much we actually seem to agree with each other, although at first we seemed to hold different views on this topic. To get back to the original quote that started this discussion:

"Even false beliefs might be acceptable to God; an honest doubter with a few intelligent insights may impress God more than a smug, unreflective, uncreative believer." Jay Newman, The Foundations of Religious Tolerance

I know this is a little off topic, but I am very curious to know what you think about the importance of intelligent doubts. I think it's better to doubt a belief that turns out to be true after all, then to steadfastly embrace a belief, never investigating enough to learn that it's false. It seems to me that we should investigate all of our beliefs, in order to hold as few false and as many true beliefs as we can. Many of the more conservative Adventists I have met have told me that the church administration and EGW must be right, since they are the servants of God and perhaps even the voice of God on earth, so I should just accept what they say. OK, so this might be quite a ways off of the topic, but this something I have really wondered about. Is God more pleased with honest doubts or with honest acceptance of the doctrines/beliefs handed down from our spiritual ancestors?

My young, questioning heart really hopes that it is the former of the two options, but deep down I have often wondered whether I should be more childlike and less college-student-like . What do you think?

[Woody]

Quote:

"And when the Holy Spirit shall come into your hearts, to impress the truth into your souls, you will not let it go easily. You have gained such an experience in searching the Scriptures that every point is established. And it is important that you continue to search the Scriptures." Review and Herald, April 3, 1888.

Sky ....

Who is the author of this Review article?

[skyblue888]

hahaha

[skyblue888]

heidi, thanks for your last post. I can't answer it right now but I will tomorrow morning!

[skyblue888]

Heidi, you wrote:

I know this is a little off topic, but I am very curious to know what you think about the importance of intelligent doubts. I think it's better to doubt a belief that turns out to be true after all, then to steadfastly embrace a belief, never investigating enough to learn that it's false. It seems to me that we should investigate all of our beliefs, in order to hold as few false and as many true beliefs as we can. Many of the more conservative Adventists I have met have told me that the church administration and EGW must be right, since they are the servants of God and perhaps even the voice of God on earth, so I should just accept what they say. OK, so this might be quite a ways off of the topic, but this something I have really wondered about. Is God more pleased with honest doubts or with honest acceptance of the doctrines/beliefs handed down from our spiritual ancestors?

My young, questioning heart really hopes that it is the former of the two options, but deep down I have often wondered whether I should be more childlike and less college-student-like . What do you think?

_________________________

These are excellent questions. It reminds me of a statement which goes like this: "While warning men of accepting anything unless it is truth, we should also warn them not to imperil their souls by rejecting messages of light, but to press out of the darkness by earnest study of the word of God." E.G. White, Testimonies to Ministers, p.110.

And this one: "If you see a little light, you are not to stand back and say, 'I will wait until my brethren have seen it.' If you do, you will go on in darkness... If you have seen the truth of God, press right to the light and put up the bars behind you." E.G. White, Faith and Works, p.77,78.

Isn't that a gem of a statement? Did you know that to the Greek, "doubt was the pedagogue which led the pupil to knowledge." There is nothing new under the sun. Here are the words of an instructor of Philosophy in Wesleyan University.

"In every sphere of investigation, every man should begin with doubt, and the student will make the most rapid progress who has acquired the art of doubting well. We ask that every student of theology take up the subject precisely as he would any other science: that he begin with doubt." The Scientific Method in Theology, North American Review, April, 1900.

Is this what you have in mind?

[skyblue888]

To Sacrates and Plato, "doubt is the way to knowledge." For Aristotle it was a maxim that "to frame doubts well" is a service to the discovery of truth. Thus, then, the basis of the whole theory of Greek education, both in science and philosophy, was "doubt,"--"a profound and consistent skepticism." The history of philosophy is but the history of doubt.

Now, the essential characteristic and quality of doubt is that it definitely causes him who exercises it, not to know. So long as any one doubt a thing, he cannot know that thing. And not to know, is simply ignorance. And inspiration pierced to the very core of the whole system when it repeatedly defined that education as "ignorance." And the word "ignorance" was definetely chosen by the Spirit of Inspiration simply because it essentially defined the thing. Acts 17:22-31." A.T. Jones, The Bible in Education, p.15,16.

More on this later.

[heidi]

Wow. I really appreciate those quotes. You're definitely well-read in this area. Thanks so much for sharing your resources with me. I'm curious, do you know of any places where EGW says we should never doubt? Something about "holding to the landmarks" and "not forsaking the light that has been given"? I have no idea if these are actually quotes from her writings, but they have been thrown in my face as reasons I should not even consider alternate explanations than those given by EGW or the SDA Bible Commentaries. I don't think we should completely throw previous explanations out, but I think we should at least be able to recognize that even in Adventist doctrine and practice, there are problems that should be addressed by thoughtful, intelligent, praying people. Again, thanks for your input, you have definitely given me a lot to think about. Now if only I didn't have an Organic Chemistry test today.

Heidi

[John317]

... I'm curious, do you know of any places where EGW says we should never doubt?

Ellen White has quite a lot to say about doubt. References to her statements on the subject fill about 3 pages in the Comprehensive Index to the Writings of Ellen G. White, Vol. 1. On page 247 of Vol. 2 of Selected Messages, in writing to a personal friend who was dying, Ellen White assured her that God loved her and she counseled her "never to doubt [God's love and care] for one moment." She wrote many times about the dangers of doubt because doubt cuts us off from God. She also writes about the reasons for doubt, as well as the fact that Satan wants us to doubt God and His Word. She says not to let one breath of doubt escape from your lips (TM 391). Think of the tragic and terribly serious consequences of Eve's doubting God's word. Or even of Abraham's doubt.

If you have access to Steps To Christ, you might want to check out the next to the last chapter entitled, "What To Do With Doubt."

The second paragraph says: "God never asks us to believe, without giving sufficient evidence upon which to base our faith. His existence, His character, the truthfulness of His Word, are all established by testimony that appeals to our reason; and this testimony is abundant. Yet God has never removed the possibility of doubt. Our faith must rest upon evidence, not demonstration. Those who wish to doubt will have opportunity; while those who really desire to know the truth, will find plenty of evidence on which to rest their faith."

By the way you can read this entire book and many others by Ellen White at www.EllenGWhite.org/ At that website you may also research practically everything Ellen White ever wrote about any topic she discusses in her books.

There are two different kinds of doubt. There is the doubt which, for whatever reason, has no genuine desire to learn the truth but only to question because it considers doubt as proof of superior intelligence, and then there's the doubt which admits it does not have an answer to a question but seeks sincerely to find it and once it has the answer to the question does not continue to doubt it. In other words, the motive behind the doubt is important and will often determine whether the doubter learns the truth and ceases to doubt.

Study Hebrews 11 and 12, particularly 11: 6: "Without faith it is impossible to please God. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him." Also James 1: 6, 7: (in reference to prayer) "...He who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. For that person must not suppose that a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways, will receive anything from the Lord."

Quote:

Something about "holding to the landmarks" and "not forsaking the light that has been given"? I have no idea if these are actually quotes from her writings, but they have been thrown in my face as reasons I should not even consider alternate explanations than those given by EGW or the SDA Bible Commentaries. I don't think we should completely throw previous explanations out, but I think we should at least be able to recognize that even in Adventist doctrine and practice, there are problems that should be addressed by thoughtful, intelligent, praying people. Heidi

Ellen White would be the first to tell you to study the Bible so that you know why you believe what you do, and she would urge that you verify from Scripture through personal prayer and study what the church teaches. No adult is to believe something based merely on the fact that someone else believes it, but we are to get the doctrinal truth directly from the Bible.

Among the "old landmarks" or Pillars of the SDA movement are (1) the third angel's message; (2) the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus; (3) the temple of God in heaven, that is, the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary; (4) The Sabbath; (5) and the non-immoratality of the wicked. These are the ones listed in Counsels to Writers and Editors, pp. 29, 30.

In 8 T 162, Ellen White wrote that we are never to seek to remove one of these "landmarks" that were given by God to SDAs. But she also warned that the time would come when people professing to have new light would work to unsettle faith in the landmarks listed above. (5 T 295)

See "Landmarks" in Vol 2. of the Comprehensive Index to the Writings of Ellen G. White.

I hope this helps answer your questions.

[skyblue888]

"Closely connected with Christ's warning in regard to the sin against the Holy Spirit is a warning against idle and evil words. The words are an indication of that which is in the heart. But the words are more than an indication of character; they have power to react on the character. Men are influenced by their own words. Often under a momentary impulse, prompted by Satan, they give utterance to jealousy or evil surmising, expressing that which they do not really believe; but the expression reacts on the thoughts. They are deceived by their words, and come to believe that true which was spoken at Satan's instigation. Having once expressed an opinion or decision, they are often too proud to retract it, and try to prove themselves in the right, until they come to believe that they are. It is dangerous to utter a word of doubt, dangerous to question and criticize divine light." Desire of Ages, p.323.

"Skepticism and unbelief are not humility. Implicit belief in Christ's word is true humility, true self-surrender." Desire of Ages, p.535.

[skyblue888]

We may be told that which is veritably true, the essential truth of God; yet if we doubt it, and so long as we doubt it, we never can know it. Therefore, doubt is essentially and only the open door to ignorance.

Further, we may be told that which is altogether false, an outright lie; yet though we believe it, however implicitly, we never can know it. This, for the reason that it is not so; and it is impossible to know what is not so.

Therefore there are just two things which are essential to knowing. These two things are truth and faith. Truth and faith are the two essentials to knowledge; and the first one of these in order is truth. This, for the reason already stated, that however implicitly we may believe that which is not so, we never can know it. Therefore, since that which is believed must be true in order to be known, it follows that truth is the first essential to knowledge. And since even the sincerest truth, when told, can not be known without our believing it, it follows that the second essential to knowledge is faith. Truth and faith, therefore, working together--the truth believed--is the way to knowledge." A.T. Jones, The Bible in Education, p.17.

TO BE CONTINUED

[skyblue888]

This can be illustrated by an experience familiar to almost all. It is the truth that A is A. We believed this truth, and thus, and thus only, we know that A is A. If we had not believed that truth when we were told it, we should not now know that A,B,C,D, etc., are what they are; and had we never believed this, we never could have known it. If in this we had asked for proof as a basis for belief, we never could have had it, and so never could have believed, and so never could have known this fundamental thing in all literary knowledge. We could have had no proof, apart from itself, that A or any other letter of the alphabet is what it is.

There is proof of this, but the proof is in the letter itself; and by believing it, by receiving it for what it is we obtain the knowledge; and in this knowledge and by experience we obtain the proof. For in each of the letters of the alphabet there is a value which responded to our belief: a value which has never failed and which never will fail us. We know that each of the letters is what it is: and all the philologists, philosophers, and scientists in all the world could not convince us that any letter of the alphabet is other than it simply is. And yet the means by which we know this is simple belief of a simple, and simply-told truth." A.T. Jones, The Bible in Education, p.17,18.

TO BE CONTINUED

[Gail]

Some good thoughts here, on faith and doubt