Lesbian Couple in Wyo. Denied Communion

[olger]

Amen. Thanks for the good reports Shane. May God continue to bless your family.

[Woody]

Disfellowship and Discipline is done by a very small minority of the church. It is usually done by around only 2 or 3 % of the church. What I am saying is that it is done by a vote of those who happen to attend a certain board meeting. This is usually only a small number of judgment hungry people. And then if more than 50% of those in attendance vote for discipline then it is done.

Do you trust this process to be the will of God?

There may actually be an extremely small number for which discipline has worked and not caused them to leave Christ. But I can guarantee you that the vast majority will be affected adversely and will leave the church never to return.

On the other side ... if you use the Biblical approach of Love ... I think you will find a much better outcome percentage wise.

[Dr. Shane]

According to the Church Manual, the church board does not have the authority to disfellowship anyone. If this happens and your pastor allows it, you should report him to you conference. A person can only be disfellowshipped by a vote of the entire church membership which is normally done a specially called meeting - not on Sabbath morning.

There is a reason for this. When a person is baptized they are admitted to membership by a vote of the entire membership - normally just after the baptism. When a member transfers from one congregation to another they are accepted by a vote of the entire church membership - usually on Sabbath morning. The church board doesn't have authority to admit members or expel them. That must be done by a vote of the entire church membership.

[Woody]

You are right Shane. I unintentially used the wrong word. It is done by the Church Business Meeting. However my point is that only a very small number of members attend such a meeting. As I said ... it is usually the vote of 2 or 3 % of the members that will cause a member to be kicked out.

However ... the way it gets to the church business meeting is through the Board.

[Dr. Shane]

Disfellowshipping a member is a unpleasant task. All members are invited to attend a church business meeting and all that attend have a vote. It is understandable that attendance would be slim when everyone knows the meeting is to disfellowship someone. However anyone wanting to attend and object or defend the member being disciplined is free to do so.

[lazarus]

In my 10 years as a pastor and over 20 years sitting on boards I have never seen as little as 2-3% of the membership be involved in the disciplinary process.

Its generally closer to 30% even higher in some cases

I have only twice had the difficult task of disfellowshipping someone. Its has never been with eagarness on anyones part. I have seen alot of tears and prayer before the decision is made.

[Parade Orange]

Hey Saints!

what does disfellowship look like

in your church?

and many people in our churches are uncircumised of the heart and they live good moral clean lives. and looked upon with admiration

Soooo....

How do these people treat a churchmember who is disfellowshipped?

Can dissfellowshipped people attend church openly?

Can they lead song service?

Can they help in Cradle Roll when the SS teacher needs help?

Can disfellowshipped people get on their knees and wash my feet?

Can they share communion?

Can us undisfellowshipped people invite them over after church without offending the other church members that are in good standing?

Can disfellowshipped give Bible Studies to their neibgors still?

Can they check out a book in the church library?

Can they go ingathering with us nondisfellowshipped church members?

Is their name litterallytaken off the books in the church office and then maybe reinstated on paper after their rebaptism?

Can the disfellowshipped members bring oatmeal burgers to potluck?

Can disfellowshipped members play special music or give a children's story?

what is disfellowshipped exactly in your church????????????????

please more than one person comment!

I want to know what it really looks like!

[olger]

Thanks for the stats laz.

oG

[Woody]

In my 10 years as a pastor and over 20 years sitting on boards I have never seen as little as 2-3% of the membership be involved in the disciplinary process.

Its generally closer to 30% even higher in some cases

I have only twice had the difficult task of disfellowshipping someone. Its has never been with eagarness on anyones part. I have seen alot of tears and prayer before the decision is made.

All I can state was my personal experience. Let me clarify. When I say membership ... I mean the number of those who are in the books. That is not the number of those who attend. It is the number of those who are members.

Let me tell you about my last experience of disfellowshipping a member. The "membership" of our church was 680. The number who attended the Business meeting was 49. The number who voted for disfellowship was 27. So to do the math ... 27 out of 680 is actually 4%.

I apologize ... I gave the figure off the top of my head of 2-3%. I actually have seen it this low for other matters of discipline. But the last disfellowship that I participated in was 4% .

Another way to look at it is that 96% were either opposed to the disfellowship or decided not to participate in it. But ... it happened anyway. As Church Clerk ... I had to write the letter to the individual. Although I was opposed to it ... I had to do the dirty work in the name of unity????

I have been through a lot of meetings on Discipline ... But I have never seen it anywhere near 30%. But even 30% means that 70% were opposed or did not wish to participate in such a matter.

Let me add that the Pastor let this vote procede when it was only 27 out of 49. Later when we voted for an important church issue ... the Pastor refused to allow the vote because he said that he wanted 80% for important issues. As if disfellowship was not important enough.

[Parade Orange]

{waiting with baited breath for the outpouring of various answers from all the walks of life represented here}

[phkrause]

Sorry but I've never had or actually known anyone that's been disfellowshipped. I've known one member who was asked to stop teaching the cradle role class because she wore jewrely. (a few of the other members thought that she wasn't a good enough witness to the little kids, so they asked the pastor to talk to her) her and her husband left and never came back.

pkrause

[Neil D]

Hey Orange...

Are you sure your questions are not [TIC]?

Assuming that they are not TIC, let me start with the last qustion-

Quote:

what is disfellowshipped exactly in your church????????????????

It means that they are no longer members of the SDA church. Typically, it means that they have done things that are not in keeping with the Adventist doctrines and have had this behavior publicized. This last part is important, as it reflects upon the group as a whole. The whole group wants the world to know that they don't do the behavior that this ONE individual has done/is doing.

EXAMPLE ONLY-

So, if he gets caught cheating on his income taxes, and his name is publicized as saying something to the effect, "This member of the Adventist Church has been convicted of defrauding the IRS and stated unrepentantly, 'Sure, I cheated on the taxes! Goverment would have bribed other members of goverment to pass legislation that I can't participate in. So I kept the money to by this supersized RV and used part of it to finance my vacation. '", then yes, that person is subject to being disfellowshipped.

Now to the next part of your question-

Quote:

what does disfellowship look like in your church?

Well, most disfellowship people of the Western US, simply look like other people...only going to other churches, like another Adventist church or simply withdrawing from the Adventist churches entirely. Some refuse to go to church anymore, and some go to Sunday church. Most, not all, complain about the Adventists though.

Rarely, in the Western US, do disfellowshipped people go back to the same Adventist church. According to Shane, the spanish population do tend to continue to come to church... Why is beyond me, but that is prolly due to my upbringing....

As for if disfellowshipping is necessary....

I am not sure... I have seen people being censured for jewelry wearing and other stupid stuff...Some have been, at least in the past, disfellowship for movie going, pre-marital sex, adultery, divorce, and other social foo-pah things. Frankly, removing someone from the church books for cultural behaviors is a bit extreem in my opinion... However, dissfellowshiping should be used on only 2 occassions that I can think of at this moment....1] disagreement of current Adventist Doctrine. and 2] pride, greed, and other consistant spiritual evil behaviors...

I would like to add a third one, but I don't think too many people would go for it... 3] Stubborn stupidity. Please note, everyone gets stupid once in a while...some more than others...but some are just plain stubborn in thier stupidity and those same ones will even act intelligent about it... I know, I know...the case would be made that EVERYONE in someone else's opinon is stubbornly stupid and then we would not have anyone in church...Oh well, go figgure....And I hope that most will see this as a TIC paragraph

[Dr. Shane]

When my mother was disfellowshipped it was in Sioux City, Iowa. It was actually the very same church that Norm F belongs to. She was disfellowshipped because she smoked and was unwilling to stop or even attend one of our Breath Free programs. All of us kids were attending the church school at the time and the church was helping her pay the tuition.

After they voted to disfellowship her, it was with a heavy heart that the pastor and head elder visitted her to tell her. They encouraged her to continue attending church and let her know the church would continue helping her with the tuition for us kids. For many weeks she dropped us kids off at church and picked us up when it was over. Eventually she returned to church, quit smoking and was rebaptised. Although we had moved to Wisconsin before that happened. To this day, she does not hold any hard feelings to those in the church that disfellowshipped her.

My wife was disfellowshipped as a teenager for working on the Sabbath. She was also loved back into the church and rebaptised a few years later.

[Woody]

Sorry but I've never had or actually known anyone that's been disfellowshipped. I've known one member who was asked to stop teaching the cradle role class because she wore jewrely. (a few of the other members thought that she wasn't a good enough witness to the little kids, so they asked the pastor to talk to her) her and her husband left and never came back.

pkrause

This is very typical and can be multiplied by the thousands. This is the ugly side of conservatism. AND since I am a conservative ... I can say this.

[Parade Orange]

thanku everyone!

I hope there will be a few more thoughts on this.

I asked specific questions cause I want to know what it is to be disfellowshipped.

I have never seen it done in any of the churches I attend.

so please answer more specifically to my scenios. thanku

[Parade Orange]

BTW

what is TIC ???

[Woody]

BTW

what is TIC ???

It's a blood sucker.

Actually it is just a deceptive way to startle people with outrageous statements . Those who use this method think it is an excuse to say crazy things.

[Bravus]

tongue in cheek (less funny but perhaps more informative)

[Parade Orange]

someone thought by asking what being disfellowshipped is an excuse for saying something outragous?

I know what Jehovah's Witness mean by being disfellowshipped but I havent seen it in the SDA church.

Just bandied about here on CA. But not clerarly defined.

[Parade Orange]

and I suppose I will ask again someday.

since my list isnt addresse3d so I know what it is.

JW dont even talk to u if U R disfelloshipped.

[Dr. Shane]

Being disfellowshipped simply means being removed from the church books. Those that are disfellowshipped can still attend church and take part in communion. They can be rebaptised once they have remedied whatever the issue was that caused them to be disfellowshipped.

[olger]

"so they asked the pastor to talk to her, and her and her husband left and never came back."

I do not know all the details of this account, but I would like to ask a simple question. Do you think the lady and her husband responded properly, by simply leaving the church? Would it not be more mature to resolve issues like this according to the Scriptures, instead of running away in anger? That will set a pattern of bitterness that will follow you around and damage others. It is not sufficient to simply blame the church, when each of us are responsible for Christlike responses. What is the rest of the story, as Paul Harvey would say?

Rejoice always,

olger

[Woody]

Quote:

someone thought by asking what being disfellowshipped is an excuse for saying something outragous?

Sorry that you misunderstood. It was an answer to what TIC means. What you asked was NOT TIC ... it was a serious question.

[Parade Orange]

I know I have been TIC in ages past so I cant fault anyone

know one sees my body language or looks into my languid eyes or hears my tone