a huge rant

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

This is a rant. I know the topic has been discussed before, but I don't care.

Why is it that people bother to pray to God?? He's going to do whatever He's going to do. It is not going to make one iota of difference if I ask for anything.... UNLESS it's something God wants me to ask for anyway. I am sick and tired of prayer being ballyhooed as a way to keep people safe, or to get a good job, or to heal people.

And then this *thanking God* bit. Thank Him for WHAT??? Something that hurts? Right. Yeah. Sure. Or thanking God for trees and flowers, nature - life - ... Why thank God for things that have been on earth for eons??? It's not new. God has not created anything new for quite some time. Thank God for the Sabbath?? WHY??? It is no different that someone dies on a Sabbath or a Sunday...they are dead just as much on one day over another.

"the power of prayer".....

**snorts**

Yeah. Right.

If you pray and things work out good, then HEY! God is good.

If you pray and things do NOT work out, then HEY! God just had other plans.

If you pray to thank God for the *things He has done*.....

Baloney. Things happen because they happen. There's no reason to pray. There is no reason to hope. What is *HOPE* anyway? It's only a wish that something *might* happen... there's no guarantees that it will.

Hope.

[there buster]

Well, when I'm in the mood where I say the things you've just said, the last thing I really want is someone to tell my about "the value and purpose of prayer!"

What I really want is someone to recognize and validate my pain.

Well, you've got a right to be upset. You just lost your father, and that's never an easy thing. My father was ill and bedridden for nearly a year, and we all knew death was coming soon. But when it happened, it was still a shock, and it still hurt--if the censors don't stop me-- like hell. And I mean that literally, because hell and death are the great pains of this beat up old world.

No doubt you and others prayed for your dad to survive, and he didn't. That sucks, too. For a while you may have had some hope, but then he died anyway. Despite all the prayers and kind thoughts of everyone who promised to pray for him. Despite all your hopes and desires. Despite everything, he died. So you're deeply hurt, and probably afraid, too.

But we don't like being hurt, don't like feeling fear. WE want to feel in control. So it feels better to transform our grief and fear into anger, into agression, into defiant words.

Been there. Done that. Tore the shirt. And then, after the outburst, the grief and hurt come back, still as sharp and and as overwhelming as before.

Well, that's a good sign. You're not just numb any more. Now you are pi**ed!

Well, believe it or not, that's the start to a good prayer. But don't just tell us about it. Tell God directly. Tell Him of your anger, of your despair, of your grief, of your fear. Let it all out. He can take it. And He knows, anyway.

So tell him what's in your heart, in all it's blackness and bleakness.

Because, one of the most important things about prayer is not that God will act like some cosmic bellhop, bringing us room service for all our desires. Nor is it so we can know God, although that's important. One of the most important reasons to pray is so that God will know us.

Yes, that's right. Matt 7:22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you.'

There's no better time than the present. You've got a lot on your chest, and you need to get it off. But you're not angry with any of us. You're angry with Him. He knows. Now it's time you were honest with him and let him know, one-on-one.

But let me warn you. Like Lt. Dan on the mast raging at God in Forrest Gump, or Bruce Nolan raging at God in Bruce Almighty, you might finally resolve some of this if you take it up with the One you're really upset at.

It worked for me.

[Gerr]

This is a rant. I know the topic has been discussed before, but I don't care.

Why is it that people bother to pray to God?? He's going to do whatever He's going to do. It is not going to make one iota of difference if I ask for anything.... UNLESS it's something God wants me to ask for anyway. I am sick and tired of prayer being ballyhooed as a way to keep people safe, or to get a good job, or to heal people.

I know someone who doesn't ask God for anything for precisely the same reasons you have.

I can sympathize with what you are going through. My wife & I have been apart 1 year. We keep praying for the sale of the house in CA. Nothing happening. She cries. She feels overwhelmed having to cope with the house being robbed, keeping the house and yard in showing order, etc. etc. Yeah, the thought crosses my mind, "what's the use?" But then I realize, to whom then I can turn to? Then I know, I can't turn away from Him who has the Words of life and into the arms of the prince of darkness.

Yes, Pam, I can recall shaking my fist at God many years ago during one of my frustrating times.

Gerry

[Woody]

Pam ... Both you and Ed have some good valid points.

Prayer does not change God. We have to pray in His will ... and his will ... will be done anyway. We just need to stay out of the way ... and what will happen will happen. Then we just have to accept it.

But, like Ed has said ... prayer is for you to cry to God. He does care. He sheds the tears just like you. Well ... maybe more. He has the power to do something and yet He doesn't. So ... it must be very painful for Him to see us suffer.

Prayer is one of the most abused and misunderstood aspects of Christianity. There is so much Christianese and misunderstandings about prayer. Most of the comments about prayer ... you just have to ignore.

I hope you will just do as Ed has suggested and cry, yell and complain to God. That's a good use of prayer. Prayer is not about getting something ... it is about getting through something.

Do not be ashamed about what you said in your post. Yes ... you are angry. But what you have said is valid. Now ... you just have to go forward and learn how to cope with the reality of what you know ... versus what you hear from other Christians regarding prayer.

[Woody]

Quote:

"the power of prayer".....

Pam ... The power in prayer is to change you. Prayer is an opportunity to reflect on God and to focus your thoughts on what you need changed in your life. Verbalizing it in thought and word can really be a shot in the arm for your spiritual life.

When I pray ... the message I get from God is ... Redwood ... go and DO.

DOing changes me and others.

[Gail]

You know what, Pam? I have a feeling that lots of us don't understand what it is and the whys, either!

I have just started a new book on the subject of prayer and the author addresses those very SAME issues that you have written! The very same!

I began to like this book right from the preface because he says very deep and hard hitting things in very few words.

I plan to do a write up on it soon...

Pam, remember that you ask excellent questions- ones that SHOULD be asked.

[Woody]

Gail ... Can you share the title of your book? It sounds very good. I am currently reading a book on prayer from one of my favorite authors ... Phillip Yancey.

[Gail]

Here it is:

Cleansing Fire, Healing Streams: Experiencing God's Love Through Prayer by Kent A. Hansen

I like books that make me think. What I've read so far contains so much food for thought that I should go through it with a highlighter. Things like, "The first rule of prayer is to show up. The second rule is to leave your heart and mind wide open to the possibilities of God at all times." And then he expounds on that.

As I've said, I've only started the book, but already it is exploring the "whys" and "hows" as well as the "what". I can see that it is going to challenge me

[Raphael]

Hai Rudywoofs and every one. Long time no see.

Your rant touches me, cause I have been ranting quite a lot lately too.

You know, I have been discovering something rather new to my conscious comprehension. The bible states seek and thou shalt find, knock and it shall be opened, ask and it shall be given... the word here "ask" can be very misleading and it is and has been a very disconcerting matter to me. The proper word should not be ask but hunger in the verb form. One may ask then contently proceed onto other matters without experiencing the serious need or hunger which seems to be a valid condition God wants for a prayer to be answered... I think .. now please do not rant again due to the fact that I seem not to be authoritative on the matter. Because people will extend to requesting worldly levels of life proving experiences that of which I am not in possession of. Even right now I am in need of your sincere supplications due to the culminating pinnacle life experiences I am arising to.

.. and then now and then God would show his calming super presence without providing solving remedies to needs. I do not know, it seems that God enjoys seeing us in perpetual suffer of His continual purification. You could say, even, talk to God and converse with Him as Balaam did and other numerous individuals in the bible but still not come up with the needed solving solvents. An Israelite life of 40 years of hardship in the wastelands would be a welcome due to the fact that you do not need much in such circumstance. There are no careers to build or things to pursue, etc., just a plain life of survival in stark contrast to our modern times.

I think Christ had every right to express his actual personal unwillingness to go through this painful ordeals due to it's seemingly unbearable agony, though in the very end He gives up is will for His Father's will.

In the end, is Christian life in this world that of agony? For the price of that eternal afterworld bliss?

Well, ranting may very well be a sign of agonized need and hunger and probably simply needs to be continued to perseverance and all of that brady bunch of other notable good words.

Anyway, I would like to pray for you Rudywoofs if I knew your specific problem or need. You could pm or email me if that suits you.

If indeed spiritual warfare is true then if it was made audible how would that warfare sound? Would there be rants, clangs of weaponry and other expected sounds of warfare? Unfortunately it may all be only in imagination.

Due to the fact that in a sane mind there is nowhere else to go except to God than may God in mercy, preserve us all.

God be with you always,

Raphael

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Here it is:Cleansing Fire, Healing Streams: Experiencing God's Love Through Prayer by Kent A. Hansen

I like books that make me think. What I've read so far contains so much food for thought that I should go through it with a highlighter. Things like, "The first rule of prayer is to show up. The second rule is to leave your heart and mind wide open to the possibilities of God at all times." And then he expounds on that.

As I've said, I've only started the book, but already it is exploring the "whys" and "hows" as well as the "what". I can see that it is going to challenge me

Yet ANOTHER book on HOW to pray?

I am so tired of people telling me I have to pray in certain ways - gotta say such and so first, then this, then that, THEN I can say what I really need to say. And woe be unto me if I get something out of order because THEN God won't listen.

I am sick of that. Sick. Sick. SICK

[Gail]

Quote:

I am so tired of people telling me I have to pray in certain ways - gotta say such and so first, then this, then that, THEN I can say what I really need to say. And woe be unto me if I get something out of order because THEN God won't listen.

I am sick of that. Sick. Sick. SICK

Exactly. That is what the book goes into. The first grouping of chapters covers the "myths" of prayer and that is the kind of stuff that you're talking about

Myths such as: God knows everything and really doesn't need our prayers

- Prayer connects only when we ask for the right thing

- God communicates only with "good" persons

- We have to know the "right" words in order to pray

- We must be careful what we ask God, because He may give it to us and we won't be able to handle it.

It counters with the concept that in prayer it's not so much that you are seeking God, but that it is He that is seeking you. The impressions in your mind that cause you to seek Him are seen as God-given, and your part is to respond and listen.

When prayer becomes something that is about us rather than Him, then we reduce God to what is in our own power and our own works.

Like I said, it is interesting but I've only just gotten into it.

Pam, believers nowadays won't settle for the pat answers and methods that our spiritual parents and forebearers did. We live in a doubting era, a skeptical era and perhaps the faith they had back then we might consider a bit blind. We require our spirituality to be meaningful and personal. The books that come out now will need to reflect that or else it just won't go.

Jesus told us to pray. God initiates prayer. Prayer is vital to the life of the believer. It is a good thing for us to study the subject.

[Woody]

Quote:

I am so tired of people telling me I have to pray in certain ways - gotta say such and so first, then this, then that, THEN I can say what I really need to say. And woe be unto me if I get something out of order because THEN God won't listen.

I am sick of that. Sick. Sick. SICK

Praise the Lord Pam that you are able to see this. You have a good ability to see through the false aspects of religion. I am glad for your insight. God is working in you. You may not have all the answers but you are on the right road. Praise God.

[Gail]

I have seen this in Pam many times, that she has good discernment.

Pam, I believe that God has given that to you- a gift- for a reason, to help you know Him. It's not something that anyone can tell you to do. It is between God and you

Just keep asking those GREAT questions!!

[Woody]

Yes Gail. You are exactly right. Some would call this a spiritual "common sense". I prefer to call it a spiritual gift. Because I do not find that we all have it and we certainly do not all use it !!!

Pam is one that thinks honestly , deeply and clearly. Her questions and experiences are a source of inspiration to me personally.

[skyblue888]

Pam, I too appreciate what you are saying and Gail has said much to think about. I agree that it is the Spirit that draws us to God and that inspires us to pray as He makes us conscious of our great need. And I also believe that our prayers should ascend to God with our own individuality. "Every sincere prayer is heard in Heaven. It may be not fluently expressed but if the heart is in it, it will ascend to the sanctuary where Jesus ministers, and He will present it to the Father without one ackward, stammering word, beautiful and fragrant with the incense of His own perfection." D.A.667.

However, the Bible admonishes us to pray and sing with the understanding. "I will pray with the Spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the Spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding." 1 Cor.14:15; Psalm 47:7.

"Jesus has turned the merits of His sacrifice into prayer. Jesus prays and by prayer succeeds." Bible Commentary, Vol.7, p.914.

As we make the merits of Jesus our prayer, our plea, will we not succeed as He? This is praying with understanding, understanding that "Through the merits of Christ we may find the approval of God." Our Father Cares, p.122.

"God will accept everyone that comes to Him trusting wholly in the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour. Love springs up in the heart. There may be no ecstacy of feeling but there is an abiding, peaceful trust." Selected Messages, Vol.1, p.354.

"When we trust God fully, when we rely upon the merits of a sin-pardoning Saviour, we shall receive all the help that we can desire." Patriarchs and Prophets, p.430.

Precious promise!

[Woody]

I have more to say about this because I feel it is so important.

Pam shows to me an honest heart with honest questions and experiences. Too often as Christians we put on a goodie goodie face. We go to church and ACT like "good" Christians. We pretend that ALL is WELL.We think we have the answers for everything.But ... We would not THINK of asking the questions that Pam poses.

Personally I find her questions refreshing. I have had enough of the things she describes about Christians. We can learn from her experience and questions. I hope it wakes us up.

I have seen some conference officials and members who think we as a church have to be "pure". We have to be "united". We can't question authority or those in authority.

What does this do ... ???? It makes robots out of us. Pretty soon there is a routine and procedure for everything. Those with honest and legitimate questions like Pams are shunned. Hey ... these are valid questions. I hope they wake us up. We as a church should be able to answer the concerns and doubts of anyone. I think we can learn from them. I hope we can help provide you some direction. But, if not ... then I hope you can feel accepted WITH your questions and concerns.

Please Pam ... CONTINUE .....

[skyblue888]

Here is another statement that I believe we can benefit from regarding the science of prayer:

"Habitually dwelling upon Christ and His all-sufficient merits increases faith, quickens the power of spiritual discernment, strengthens the desire to be like Him and brings an earnestness into prayer that makes it efficacious." Gospel Worker, p.166.

[Raphael]

I just attended a charismatic church last Saturday, more precisely a Bethel church. I am an adventist, 3d generation and am full and overflowing with Gods inherited knowledge. While attending this church session, I felt much blessed. I believe it due to the purposeful prayers by its ministers and its people. There were no prayer requests just purposeful prayers for blessing for all attending. I wished our SDA churches had the same sort of thing, a sincere prayer for help and blessing for everyone. I wished that in our churches, prayers would be more wielded on purpose for its power, recognizing and appreciating it.

"I will pray with the Spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the Spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding." 1 Cor.14:15; Psalm 47:7. skyblue888

Yes, and did we sing too, with behemoth audacity.

I am not disfavoring our church, just only, if we could obtain all eclectic good features.

Raphael

[Gail]

I ran into this in the "Cleansing Fire, Healing Streams" book we were talking about a few posts back. It might give you a better idea of whether you would find this book to your liking:

"Answering the One Who Taunts Me" p.35:

The author, finding that his life is in material wealth but spiritual shambles, cries out by leaving everything to seek solitude in the Arizona wilderness. Armed only with his Bible, he sits and reads this passage in Psalm 119 (NIV):

"May your unfailing love come to me, O Lord,

your salvation according to your promise;

then I will answer the one who taunts me,

for I trust in your word." vv.41,42

He realised that for years he had suffered from the effects of lack of love, and reacted by isolating himself from others, usually through angry outbursts.

Suddenly Kent realises God's love for him, that His love is unfailing. He also realises that the one who has been taunting him, is himself.

As this reality begins to sink in, he understands that now he can face, and as the verse says, answer the one who has taunted him with thoughts of unworthiness. He could now say, "I am loved, and the Creator and Savior of the universe finds me loveable."

He then explores the truth that if you have the love of God in your heart, if you realise that it is yours, YOU can calmly face who or whatever it is that is taunting you and rebuke him/it.

So as you see, it is not an ordinary book of rules on how to pray, but a walk through how God communicates with us.

[Parade Orange]

wow

what insightful deep wound exposing words this author is sharing