Water bike from the land down under

[Stan]

[Dr. Shane]

It seems to end before it's over :(

[Woody]

This concerns me. If this were to get out .... there would be a massive water shortage.

[Dr. Shane]

If it actually consumes water that is true. However if the fuel goes in as water and comes out as water vapor or steam, then it would just continue in the water cycle. However it seems a little suspicious to me. Doesn't Australia have some kind of patent pending protection? The guy should be able to just give the media samples of this fuel to be examined in the lab.

[David Koot]

This concerns me. If this were to get out .... there would be a massive water shortage.

No, because it is quite impossible. One cannot power an internal combustion engine on water. The technology to separate hydrogen from O2 in the water would have to be present. That would require massive fuel cells or equivalent.

[Dr. Shane]

Explain to me again how fuel cells work. How is it that the hydrogen is not consumed in the process? If it is consumed, then wouldn't that decrease the amount of water on the planet - which I have been told doesn't happen with fuel cells.

[David Koot]

A fuel cell operates on a couple of principles, as I recall. Perhaps Bravus can correct me if my memory is faulty. There is an electrode in the form of a very fine-mesh screen, and there is a membrane through which osmosis occurs. The hydrogen is separated from the oxygen as water is exposed to the electrode, as well as osmosis through the membrane. Bravus, help!!!

Dave

[Dr. Shane]

From what I understood, the hydrogen is separated from the O2 and what comes out of the engine is unstable hydrogen which quickly hooks up with O2 to form water vapor. But I have no idea how that works.

[David Koot]

After further reflection, I pronounce it a hoax. That bike had an internal combustion engine. It was clear from looking at it, and listening to it fire up and move the bike. Water is non-combustible. That is why it is used to douse fires. The ONLY way such a contraption could work, would be to separate the H from the O. Given the economies of scale, from the size of the bike and the size of the motor, the power plant mounted on the frame, even if it contained H-extraction technology, would not possess sufficient power to even MOVE the bike, much less propel it along at highway speeds. It is a humbug. I am not a betting man, but if I were, I would not hesitate to plunk down five big ones on it, any odds. (No, I'm not placing a bet. Just illustrating how sure I am.)

Dave

[Woody]

Praise the Lord Dave ...

I was starting to worry about our limited water supply.,

[David Koot]

Now I'm feeling like I've been snookered. The Aussies have pulled a fast one on us, and got their laughs. Well, I can see that I shouldn't have taken this seriously. Oh, well.

[Bravus]

:)

Several small comments:

1. It's actually New Zealand, misidentified on YouTube as Australia. He's an Auckland man and all the accents are definitely Kiwi.

2. It's a claim that's been made plenty of times, and it's attractive because we *want* to believe. And we do know there are hydrogen and oxygen in water and that means energy. But a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and any approach that claims to get more energy out than in is the exact equivalent of a perpetual motion machine.

3. Fuel cells combine hydrogen with oxygen to make water in a 'cold' process as Dave said, when they're being used to provide electricity. They can be reversed by putting electricity in and used to split water into hydrogen and oxygen. No matter is created or destroyed in this process, so it's neutral in terms of the world's total supply of water. Due to losses and inefficiencies more energy has to be put in to split the water initially than is gained from recombining the elements to make water again.

[Bravus]

My best guess is that what he's got is a small engine that has a high tolerance to water in its fuel, that will run (badly) on a mixture of water and some kind of highly volatile and flammable colourless liquid fuel (something like nitromethane maybe?) He never claimed it was running on pure water, but one some mysterious mixture. Maybe it's even hydrogen peroxide, making his claim that there are is no carbon in the fuel true. But the water has nothing to do with the combustion - if anything all it does is provide expansion as it gets heated. Intriguing, and an interesting engineering feat, but nothing that's going to solve any of our energy problems. Such an engine would be expensive to build and very expensive to maintain, and likely unreliable.

[Bravus]

But one last reminder:

Arthur C. Clarke's First Law:

When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.

Isaac Asimov's Corollary to Clarke's First Law:

When the lay public rallies round to an idea that is denounced by distinguished but elderly scientists, and supports that idea with great fervour and emotion, the distinguished but elderly scientists are then, after all, right.

[Bravus]

Please note that I am *not* identifying myself as a distinguished but elderly scientist... just in case there was any doubt!

[Dottie]

Ii'm surely not a scientist, or even a student of science, but he said that he leaves the hydrogen and oxygen as H2O, but treats or does something to it before putting it in the engine. Did I miss something?

What I was waiting to see was the reporter drink the water after seeing the cycle being driven. That would have convinced me more that he was actually using water.

[bevin]

Why don't these people take the sample to a lab and find out what it is?

At a bare minimum, she should have sniffed it

/Bevin

ps: Kiwi's and Aussies are both suckers when it comes to fuel and devices that improve fuel economy - magnets on fuel lines and such...

[Planey]

Does the fact that this news item was released on or about April 1 have any relevance?

[Beryl]

Well, Planey, I rarely disagree with a fellow-Aussie -- especially when the Kiwis are involved!

Relevance to April 1? Well, according to the stories regarding April 1 when I was MUCH younger -- if told BEFORE midday it probably was an April Fool joke and the one who believed it was the fool, but if told AFTER midday, the person who told it was the fool.

So, the next step is to find out when the story was released! Then we will know who was fooling who!

Beryl

[bevin]

I checked out the dates with exactly the same thought in mind...

It goes back to 2005 and earlier, and was run in Oct 2005 on TV3

http://www.freedomcrowsnest.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22440

So it is about 6 months out for an Apr 1st joke

/Bevin

[David Koot]

he leaves the hydrogen and oxygen as H2O, but treats or does something to it before putting it in the engine.

What I found particularly interesting was the acceleration of the bike, and its capability of reaching highway speeds quickly. That points to a highly volatile fuel. Mixing it with water? Hmmmmm. I assume that the water would not combine with the fuel. If it did combine, then the volatility would be reduced. If it did NOT mix with the fuel, then it would settle to the bottom of the fuel tank, be sucked into the carburetor and, I should think, kill the engine.

To give an example of another fuel with lower octane and volatility than gasoline . . . diesel fuel. While diesel fuel would power a bike, the acceleration would be poor, and the power plant would have to be quite large and heavy. Add a turbo, and you have an even bigger motor. So, whatever powers that bike would need to be reasonably high octane, and not actually mixing with water; nor could a large amount of water be poured into the tank.

Sooooo, that all points to . . . a hoax!!

Bevin's tidbit of info was illuminative . . . kiwis and aussies are suckers for anything that smacks of energy conservation. Sounds like our friend on the video played to his audience.

[Bravus]

Most alcohols are both highly flammable and miscible with water, though. So is nitromethane.

[Bravus]

Wikipedia says:

Nitromethane is used as a fuel in racing, particularly drag racing, to provide more power.[2] In this context, it is commonly referred to as "nitro" or just "fuel".

The oxygen content of nitromethane enables it to burn with much less atmospheric oxygen in comparison to hydrocarbons such as gasoline:

4CH3NO2 + 3O2 → 4CO2 + 6H2O + 2N2

14.6 kg of air are required to burn one kg of gasoline, but only 1.7 kg of air for one kg of nitromethane. Since an engine’s cylinder can only contain a limited amount of air on each stroke, 8.7 times more nitromethane than gasoline can be burned in one stroke. However, nitromethane has a lower energy density. Gasoline provides about 42-44 MJ/kg, nitromethane provides only 11.3 MJ/kg. This analysis indicates that nitromethane generates about 2.3 times the power of gasoline when combined with a given amount of oxygen.

[David Koot]

Nitromethane is used as a fuel in racing . . . This analysis indicates that nitromethane generates about 2.3 times the power of gasoline when combined with a given amount of oxygen.

I had wondered about nitro. Didn't know it could combine with water. But that could indeed be an explanation. The numbers seem to add up. Of course, it doesnt take away from the 'hoax' aspect, but could indeed explain how he could pour water in the tank and then start the thing up.

[David Koot]

I am, however, still curious about the effect of adding water to alcohol or nitro, on its combustibility and on the energy density of the mixture. I haven't studied that. Seems like it would negatively impact both figures. Also, what would be the effect on the cylinder walls of having a high water content? I should think they could be scored. And how would it affect the engine oil?

Dave