Wrestling with Prophetic Interpretation, Maligned Semantics

[Gus Foster]

In the past few months I have been reviewing prophetic commentaries seeking to isolate some common denominator that would enhance understanding for the layman, the catechumen, the goyan. I say that because it has become quite obvious to me that the scholar writes his studies for other scholars; hence you see many quotes from piers whose conclusion are foreign with the author himself, supposedly to prove his thoughts are not hermitable. We read such terminology as prophetic chains, dual interpretations and applications, appotelesmatic, and scores of other suggested applications for interpretation. Athough many Adventist scholars claim unanimity, it becomes vacillated on critical points. Since our inception, we have maintained a critical, historical interpretation; assigning a chronological time period to each of the 7 churches, 7 seals and 7 trumpets. We have rightly divided the book into halves, the first consisting of the church age in Rev 1-14, and the second half of eternal judgment, punishment, deliverance and glorification.

In the Revelation texts, Jesus is introduced as our High Priest, 1:2, 5; as our resurrected King, 1:5; and as our Savior and Glorifier, 1:7. Then The Keeper of His Church shows His attributes and His assurance of His commitment to maintain His church, 1:10-20. In 2-3 He shows His devotion in sharing these attributes and His character with all who will accept, love and obey Him and promises rewards throughout eternity with Him. It is imperative to note that even though the strict historical method of interpretation assigns a specific date and occurrence to each of the sevens, they all mirror happenings from the first century through to the end of the church age. The book was written to current churches with applications to their time, and the message was to continue in the churches throughout that age.

This brings us to the seals and trumpets, which are in the simplest essence, denotes and connotes justification and sanctification. The contents of the sealed book is plain enough; in it are all of the events of the church age, including the life history of every living soul, and the opening discloses the saved and judges the lost. The seals represent the gospel, in every setting, at every stage, with all its application, resources and resistance. The trumpets represent the sanctification, the growth of the saved soul, with all its trials, temptations and opposition; and the separation of saints from all opposing forces. Many commentators saw the trumpets as future events, each one bringing about the end of the age. This does not mean that the trumpets of the future did not mirror past church history. Today we see Kabbalahism, Wahhabism and many other 'isms' which really just reflect what Jesus conveyed to the churches as Nicolaitains, and the practices of Balaam and Jezebel; that of compromise, worldliness, Christianity salted with paganism, and just plain intolerance to every wind of doctrine.

We have made Revelation way too complicated--------------

Revelation reveals Jesus as:

CREATOR; SAVIOR; HIGH PRIEST; GUARDIAN of the church; JUSTIFIER; SANCTIFIER;

JUDGE; PURIFIER and GLORIFIER. The wrestling should be over, if we only would.

[Ron Lambert]

No offense, Gus, but whatever happened to exegesis? I read so many theories about literary structure, it makes interpreting Revelation seem like a free-form creative art. Revelation 19:10 tells us that "the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." So the better we understand Bible prophecy, the closer we can come to Jesus. Shouldn't we care about getting it right?

[Gus Foster]

Ron----

A reply earlier today on another forum:

Steve Timm wrote:

>Hi Gus--I have been in the church my whole life and read most of the major

>prophetic works. Certainly the 7 churches correspond to chronological

>times

>but I have not seen similar consensus on 7 seals, 7 trumpets being the same

>7 historical periods. Could you elaborate on the sources to whom you are

>referring? Plus, obviously none of those three prophecies has ever risen

>close to the level of fundamental belief or even being covered in a

>standard

>evangelistic series. I suppose one would cover them in a Revelation

>Seminar, though.

At the end of the Protestant Reformation Movement during the Millerite

Movement, the book of Revelation, irrespective of being a symbolic writing,

was interpreted as graphically literal, assigning dates and chronological

times to every part of every vision. This practice was strictly adhered to

with 19th and early 20th century commentators; i.e. Uriah Smith's Daniel and

Revelation; chapter 9, page 493, entitled The Moslem World in Prophecy,

assigned each trumpet to an one-time historical event; as did W A Spicer in

Beacon Lights of Prophecy, 1935. These type of prophetic interpretations

basically put the seals and trumpets after 1844; assigning Rev 4-5 to that

date. This continued through half of the 20th century. However, there were

individuals such as myself who questioned not only the dating, but the

restriction of the accepted interpretation of each church, seal and trumpet.

There were others, like Verlene DeWitt Youngberg's Revelation, forwarded by

Roy Allan Anderson, that although she sited Rev 4-5 as the beginning of

judgment in 1844, page 174, assigned some seals and trumpets to the time of

Moses, and to the 'patriarchal age.'

In the middle of the 20th century, Kenneth Strand devised a 'chiastic

structure,' which is an inverse parallelism of the literary structure of the

book. (for a great explanation, read chapter 1 of the General Conference's

Daniel and Revelation Committee (DARCOM) Symposium on Revelation-Book 1)

Anyone can purchase this whole series on www.Amazon.com , mostly used. The

reader will find this expanded in great detail in C Mervyn Maxwell's God

Cares, although his commentary still acceped Smith's one time only assigned

chronological order. (see page 237) Hans K LaRondelle, End-Time Prophecies,

page 173 expands the seals and trumpets to be tests on accepting and

promoting the gospel of Jesus, and places Rev 4-5 as the inauguration of

Jesus in heaven at his ascension, thus interpreting the churches, seals and

trumpets as continuing throughout the entire church age. DARCOM's series

agrees; Book 1, page 19; "It must be emphasized that apocalyptic prophecy

deals with real events and developments in the historical continuum, from

the prophets time onward to the end of time."

We no longer have strict exegesis for prophetic texts; thus the message to

each church does not 'only' pertain to only one time period, or only one

church, but to all Christians throughout the entire church age. Now, anyone

can claim the 'victory,' 'conquering' and 'overcoming' of those specific

church problems, reflecting the battle of the 'natural man' with the

'spiritual.' What about the seals? Finally, since Rev 4-5 is the beginning

of Christ's ministry in heaven in AD 31 and not the judgment of 1844, the

first 4 seals are recognized as the gospel for the church age, with all its

variance of purity and resistance. The 'bow,' GR toxon, in seal #1 is a

ribbon, as the early Christian bowed to resistance, not shoot it. What about

seal #5? Without a lot of outside influence, can you see an application to

the 1st century, the 2nd, the dark ages, the final crisis? There is still

some mixture of thoughts on interpretation; the Leslie Hardinge's family

compellation, The Lamb, 2005, still adheres to assigning a chronological

time to each event, see page 122, where each seal parallels an assigned time

to each church, each trumpet. Jacques B Doukhan expands the time frames to

include more than one event, Secrets of Revelation, page 84. Jon Paulien

demonstrates the chiasm, The Deep Things of God, page 123, and gives a

church age dispensation to one event. Commentators now use the terms to

explain events as dual, echoes, mirrors, repetitive; still subscribing to

one time only for one event, but allowing repetition of occurrences. And

finally for this article, Ranko Stevanovic, Revelation, page 281, sees the

first four churches, seals and trumpets contemporary for the entire church

age, Rev 1-14. I can remember as an Academy student in the 50's putting the

Revelation sevens in different parellel time slots, trying to make them all

fit each other.

Here, I have truncated church history of interpretation, and Adventists are

not unique in wrestling with prophetic interpretation. Billy Graham's The

Apocalypse of the Four Horsemen shows demon looking warriors on the front

cover. Notwithstanding, the seals definitely represent the gospel, 'going

out unto the whole earth,' Zech 1:10,11. Most commentators shy away from the

trumpets, including Adventists. My study interprets the symbolic attributes

of earth, grass, trees, mountains, sea, rivers, etc as characteristics and

responses of humanity to judgments. DARCOM got it right when it describes

the trumpets as events that purify God's people, by fire, by trials, by

judgments. EGW states over and over; "When we fully understand Revelation

there will be a great revival." GC page 470; " the work of sanctification is

progressive." Simply put, Revelation 1-14 reveals the ministry of Jesus from

his ascension throughout the church age. The seals show the gospel in

justification, and the trumpets in sanctification. They convict, purify,

separate, and illuminate and demonstrate the conditions of the living

covenant within the heart of every saint.

[Gus Foster]

There is a phenomenal sequence of interpretation that occurs with those who

believe and teach that Rev 4-5 is chronologically dated at 1844. They not

only teach that the events of the Revelation seals and trumpets follow

progressively from that point in time, but they also teach, with only a few

exceptions, that Jesus was created from the Father somewhere way back in the

ions of time, that He was begotten as in created, that the Trinitarian

doctrine is non-scriptural, that there is not any third person of the

Godhead of the Holy Spirit, that the Spirit is the Spirit of God or/and the

Son.

I have encountered this strange phenomenon in forums, in churches, and by

internet correspondence. I can find no connection, and have struggled to

find intellectual or Scriptural foundation. I personally believe this is a

miscarriage of Scripture, but also recognize there were pioneers of

Adventism that adhered to that understanding. I hope and pray that it is a

growth process in understanding and comprehension, although I have met some

who appear to be unshakable in this regard.

It is always very perplexing to me how many variants of interpretation

humanity can perceive from the same text. On the Holy Spirit, John 14-16

describes the parakletos as 'another one;' 14:16. See SDA Com 5, page 1037.

The description is irrefutable. Jesus is pictured as the Eternal One who

'gave up' all His attributes as God, Phil 2:6, and was reinstated in Rev 5.

God was 'begotten from a woman, and became God-man, even though He choose

not to use His godly powers while 'tented' in human flesh on earth.

The correct interpretation of any given texts is just as imperative as the

correct chronological order--and somehow, they must entertain one another.

[Gus Foster]

Quote:

No offense, Gus, but whatever happened to exegesis? I read so many theories about literary structure, it makes interpreting Revelation seem like a free-form creative art. Revelation 19:10 tells us that "the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." So the better we understand Bible prophecy, the closer we can come to Jesus. Shouldn't we care about getting it right?

That does seem to be the case with many prognosticators; however, when studying Revelation in the original Greek, and the referred text from the OT in Hebrew, it is almost impossible to add or subtract from John's original message. I have tried to conform to the strictist of hermanutics in my website www.sharegodfact.org even though I must tell you that typical exegesis is not possible in prophetic language, because that would eliminate all symbolic interpretation as well as a spiritual meaning outside of literal. For example, a beast would only be a beast, and not have any other meaning. An angel would only be a heavenly messenger, even though John's Greek is messenger and can mean human or angelic. This is true throughout the whole book, as the first chapter sets the course---stars, candlesticks, etc etc.

Ron, we have been down this road before. People will believe what they want, even in the face of evidence persuasive for opposition.

[jasd]

>>An angel would only be a heavenly messenger, even though John's Greek is messenger and can mean human or angelic.<<

I very much enjoy your posts; however, that said, I would offer that

I am perplexed by "would only be a heavenly messenger" in the above.

The fact that the "messenger" in St John's Apocalypse 'flies through the heavens proclaiming this and that' ...ought not that give pause to an interpretation shod of a strict literalism?

[John317]

In the past few months I have been reviewing prophetic commentaries seeking to isolate some common denominator that would enhance understanding for the layman, the catechumen, the goyan. I say that because it has become quite obvious to me that the scholar writes his studies for other scholars; hence you see many quotes from piers whose conclusion are foreign with the author himself, supposedly to prove his thoughts are not hermitable. We read such terminology as prophetic chains, dual interpretations and applications, appotelesmatic, and scores of other suggested applications for interpretation. Athough many Adventist scholars claim unanimity, it becomes vacillated on critical points. Since our inception, we have maintained a critical, historical interpretation; assigning a chronological time period to each of the 7 churches, 7 seals and 7 trumpets. We have rightly divided the book into halves, the first consisting of the church age in Rev 1-14, and the second half of eternal judgment, punishment, deliverance and glorification.

In the Revelation texts, Jesus is introduced as our High Priest, 1:2, 5; as our resurrected King, 1:5; and as our Savior and Glorifier, 1:7. Then The Keeper of His Church shows His attributes and His assurance of His commitment to maintain His church, 1:10-20. In 2-3 He shows His devotion in sharing these attributes and His character with all who will accept, love and obey Him and promises rewards throughout eternity with Him. It is imperative to note that even though the strict historical method of interpretation assigns a specific date and occurrence to each of the sevens, they all mirror happenings from the first century through to the end of the church age. The book was written to current churches with applications to their time, and the message was to continue in the churches throughout that age.

This brings us to the seals and trumpets, which are in the simplest essence, denotes and connotes justification and sanctification. The contents of the sealed book is plain enough; in it are all of the events of the church age, including the life history of every living soul, and the opening discloses the saved and judges the lost. The seals represent the gospel, in every setting, at every stage, with all its application, resources and resistance. The trumpets represent the sanctification, the growth of the saved soul, with all its trials, temptations and opposition; and the separation of saints from all opposing forces. Many commentators saw the trumpets as future events, each one bringing about the end of the age. This does not mean that the trumpets of the future did not mirror past church history. Today we see Kabbalahism, Wahhabism and many other 'isms' which really just reflect what Jesus conveyed to the churches as Nicolaitains, and the practices of Balaam and Jezebel; that of compromise, worldliness, Christianity salted with paganism, and just plain intolerance to every wind of doctrine.

We have made Revelation way too complicated--------------

Revelation reveals Jesus as:

CREATOR; SAVIOR; HIGH PRIEST; GUARDIAN of the church; JUSTIFIER; SANCTIFIER;

JUDGE; PURIFIER and GLORIFIER. The wrestling should be over, if we only would.

While I believe that at the time the Holy Spirit inspired John to write the Apocalypse, there was only one correct way of interpreting and understanding it, we have lost contact with what those correct ways are, and therefore there are a number of ways each major section can legitimately be understood. Some interpretations are better than others for any number of reasons-- for instance, because they are based on a better knowledge of the original language, a superior grasp of the book's themes or of its literary structure, or perhaps of the parallels between it and the books of Daniel or Ezekiel. I am not advocating a prophetic free-for-all, however. While I personally prefer the interpretations published by Seventh-day Adventist scholars, I am simply quite willing to accept the probability that interpreters representing other views and other denominations also have many good insights into Revelation.

As in the study of many parts of the Bible, an interpretation of the Apocalypse need not always necessarily be "correct" in the formal sense in order for the study to be worth while to the student. I have found that what is most important is the attitude of the student. If he is sincere and honest and teachable, God will bless him even though he may be wrong about the meaning of some of the symbols. God can deal more easily with mistaken interpretations than He can with someone who resists the Holy Spirit and is unwilling to change even when brought under conviction. Why is this? Because the personal application we make to our lives from lessons learned in the Apocalypse is often of far greater importance spiritually than getting all the symbols exactly right. There is a very real sense in which the most important thing about the study of Daniel and Revelation is the prayerful and thoughtful struggle of the soul to understand these books and to let the Holy Spirit deal with our personal lives as we contemplate what God is saying to us individually. The most important question to ask in any study of Revelation, then, is not what some symbol means but rather whether Jesus Christ is really our Lord and Savior each step of the way through. Does He rule our life? Are we prepared to make any changes He asks of us? Are we willing to do anything in order to be be victorious with Him and to be ready for Him to come as described in the last 5 chapters?

It seems to me clear that God made Revelation such that every generation in every location on earth can gain a blessing from its study. Yet I believe it is also true that it speaks in a special way to God's church for these last days. It has given us great encouragement that God has been leading our church, yet there can be no doubt that the Apocalype's first readers or hearers would not have recognized the interpretations that Seventh-day Adventists have placed on some of its key chapters. They were not wrong and neither are we. There is no reason to believe that God had exactly the same message for them living at the end of the 1st century as He has for us living 2000 years after them. The larger issues-- of true worship, of God's righteousness and of salvation-- are, of course, essential matters for all generations throughout history; yet there are many other issues, such as the exact identity of the beast power or of the nature of the test facing God's people at the end, which were not necessary for John's readers to have a "correct" understanding of. I suppose these are issues and prophecies which God will lead the students of the Apocalypse to an ever increasing and accurate knowledge as we come closer to the time when we must prepare for their ultimate consummation.

[Ron Lambert]

There is a way to be objective in our interpretation of Revelation and Daniel, and avoid any private interpretation. That is to allow the Bible to define its own terms. If you want to know what the mountain is in the second trumpet, consult with the way mountain is used as a prophetic symbol in Daniel. Since the same divine mind produced the symbology in both prophecies, the meaning must be the same. This is the only way to be objective. Anything else must be subjective, and invalid. If you want to know what the significance of the fire that the mountain of the second trumpet is burning with, see what fire symbolizes consistently all throughout Bible prophecy. It represents zeal, passion. Always, in every case, Genesis to Revelation. If you want to know what the smoke mentioned in the fifth seal means, see what smoke (or the related concept of cloud) means throughout Bible prophecy. You will conclude--you have no choice but to conclude--it signifies manifestation of supernatural power. Context further indicates whether it is divine or satanic. It has nothing to do with gunsmoke coming from Moslem calvary!

This is really not terribly hard, and I have found that this methodology explains every single symbol in the prophecy of the seven trumpets in Revelation 8-11, with perfect clarity and harmony of meaning, and total consistency with all other uses of those symbols throughout the Bible. There are no discrepancies. Every last detail is explained. And it is objective, it is THE interpretation of the prophecy, it is not a private interpretation. It is the only interpretation that is not a private interpretation.

When trying to interpret anything in Revelation, I would challenge the conscientious Bible student to read everything, and ignore nothing. Everything must be explained, or you have explained nothing. If you find one point that does not fit, then you are not there yet. Forget any private ideas you may be fond of, and search through the Bible, and let the Bible tell you what it means, and let the chips fall where they may!

I have at various times presented here synopses of my views on the seals and trumpets. I have a book-length manuscripts that goes through the prophecy of the seven trumpets phrase-by-phrase and symbol-by-symbol, and is successful at explaining everything with perfect sense and consistency, showing where in Scripture I found the definition of each symbolic term. If anyone would like to read it, I will be glad to e-mail it.

I have not yet posted a summary of my views on the seven churches. I have concluded they portray the state of the various denominations of Christendom as they shall exist in the time of the end, just before the Judgment of the Living begins. This is followed by the depiction of the Judgment in Revelation 4-5, and then events that are seen on earth following 1844 in the seals, and then events of the final conflict in the seven trumpets.

Let me point out one big difficulty for anyone who wants to hold on to the old, traditional, majority view that the seven churches represent eras in the history of the Christian church through the Christian age: In the letter to the church of Thyatira, when the Lord says He is going to put the church to trial by casting the woman, Jezebel into a bed of adultery, He then says that by this: "all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works." (Revelation 2:23; NKJV)

Please notice--face up to the words, and do not ignore or skip over them--"all the churches shall know...." By the lesson God will teach Thyatira, ALL the churches shall know!

Now, if the church of Ephesus existed hundreds of years before the church of Thyatira came into being, as the traditional view teaches, then how could the members of the Ephesian church learn from something that was to be seen in the experience of the church of Thyatira, hundreds of years later?

Look also at what Jesus says to the church of Philadelphia: "Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth." (Revelation 3:10; NKJV) How more clearly could Jesus say that these people will be especially cared for by Jesus during the time of trial and test for "the whole world" that accompanies the judgment of the living? And yet the historical interpretation does not see this church as even existing now.

In fact, if you look carefully, you can see in the message to every one of the seven churches some reference to a soon-coming judgment.

Please do not duck these questions. They are relevant. They are required! They must be answered by anyone who would venture an interpretation of this prophecy. Any interpretation that cannot account for these things in the clear specifications of the text, is not correct.

[John317]

...In fact, if you look carefully, you can see in the message to every one of the seven churches some reference to a soon-coming judgment.

Please do not duck these questions. They are relevant. They are required! They must be answered by anyone who would venture an interpretation of this prophecy. Any interpretation that cannot account for these things in the clear specifications of the text, is not correct.

I agree with most of what you say. When it comes to the above statement about the soon-coming judgment, the judgment and return of Jesus have always been presented to the prophets as if time was extremely short. Also, one good reason for the Bible presenting the judgment in this way is the fact that the very next thing after anyone dies, it will seem to them that they have been unconscious for only a moment, after which they will either see Christ's return or the judgment.

I would love to read your book, by the way. You seem like a careful, thoughtful student of the Bible. I'll restudy what you've written in your post and reply to some additional points, tomorrow.

[Ron Lambert]

John317, I have e-mailed to you the Word doc file that contains my manuscript on the seven trumpets, "The Last Day Trumpets." I used the e-mail address in your profile.

[John317]

John317, I have e-mailed to you the Word doc file that contains my manuscript on the seven trumpets, "The Last Day Trumpets." I used the e-mail address in your profile.

Yes, I got it, thanks. I'll read it and get back to you about it.

[Ron Lambert]

Please see my post in the "What Seventh-day Adventists Believe" forum, titled "The Importance of Bible Prophecy."

[John317]

All I can say is keep up the great work, Ron. I got a real blessing from it. I hope everyone at CA studies it and compares it to the Bible to see if these things are true.