Xmas, and solstice, and pagans, and times and seasons

[Neil D]

I have always thought Billie inspired when she advanced, what I now call, the "reclaimation theory of Christmas". And yes, I know that I am totally very early [or very late], and that we are hardly out of the last Xmas season. But for now,when Xmas is not an emmanant[sp] issue, it is time to think about this issue....when we can possibly think more clearly on this issue.

Reflections on Christmas...

...and solstice and pagans and Jews and Gentiles and times and seasons and angels' songs and Christmas trees--and a baby born in a stable.

On winter Solstice... Could one born in the tropics comprehend the long, dark, winter arctic night? Or even we of temperate zones, in our warm, well lighted rooms--what can we know of the feelings of earlier tribes who watched the sunlit hours grow fewer and fainter each day, until there was solstice and the sun stopped its retreat and began to return. Those who knew the Lord--that it was He who made the sun, and ordered the seasons--these surely celebrated and gave Him thanks, and praised the Lord when they saw the sun returning. When they saw the season turning, surely they worshiped Him.

But not all knew the Lord. Some saw only the things that were made--the sun and the earth that provided their food. And they (some ignorantly, some willfully) turned from worshiping the Lord to worshiping instead those things the Lord had made. We call them pagans. At the turning of the season they called solstice, they celebrated, and gave thanks, and praised and worshiped those things that were but the signs of the turning of the year.

And then came Jesus. And Christians chose the solstice celebration and appropriated it as a celebration of His coming. And some Christians think this was a very bad thing to do--for Solstice had "pagan origins", and Christ was not born at Solstice.

But think with me a little farther. Perhaps it should not be so quickly condemned.

First of all, did Pagans really *originate* the celebrations of Solstice? I tend to agree with C. S. Lewis when he observes that Satan does not "originate" anything. He has no creative power. He only rebels, he perverts, he turns men from worshiping the creator to worshiping the creation. But it is the function of the gospel to turn men's hearts back to worshiping the true God. So why should we think of Solstice as being only a pagan holiday which was "Christianized"? (This term meaning, I suppose, only a thin veneer of respectability which covers a pagan--and therefore evil--heart.) Might we not better think of it as a holiday, a holy day--a day of celebration, praise, and worship which Christianity reclaimed--that is, removed its pagan heart--and redirected its praise and worship back to the true Creator God?

It is true, Christ was not born at winter solstice as men count the turning seasons of the year. Yet Christ was born at winter solstice--in the turning of the history of the world.

When "the light of truth seemed to have departed from among men, when faith had grown dim, and hope had well-nigh ceased to illuminate the future." when "the dark shadow that Satan had cast over the world grew deeper and deeper," when even the "priests who ministered in the temple had lost sight of the significance of the service they performed," when "the deception of sin had reached its height," when all the world, it seemed, lived in an arctic winter darkness...

"When the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth His Son". . . "Wonder, O heavens! And be astonished, O earth!" (quotes from Desire of Ages by Ellen White) Then it was that angels brought light and song and celebration to temple shepherds keeping watch...for Christ the Lord was born that day! It was "Christ-mas" day--the first glimmer of the "return of the Son", the beginning of God's "Christ-mass"--"Christ- sacrifice"--that was to culminate at Gethsemane and Calvary and burst forth on the resurrection morning in light more glorious than the noonday summer sun.

The gods of field and forest and star and sun and Roman Empire were shown to be no gods. And the day of praise which they had usurped was given back to God. The day of celebrations for the sun's return was made a day of celebration for the coming of the Sun of Righteousness, the babe in the manger.

Oh, yes, from our vantage point in history, we know that not all men gave their full allegiance to the King of Kings. We know that Christians allowed pagan thoughts to infiltrate the church, causing a period of great darkness even in the church. We know that Christians today are not single minded in their worship. We even know that paganism is arising again, that Christ is being outlawed from public schools and government property while neo-pagan and Gaia (earth) rituals are encouraged. Solstice is once more being celebrated by some. So let's be against pagan elements that have clung to (or grown upon) the holy day called Christmas. Let's be against the secular commercialization of Christmas. But please! Let's not let (or help) these same elements squeeze Christ out of our Christmas!

If the celebration of solstice had not existed, would Christians have started it? We just might have--we who lived in lands of ice and snow and long winter nights--we just might have. Darkness is depressing. We just might have cheered each other with tales of light and song and Bethlehem. I hope we would have. Maybe, in fact, we did. Our present day pagans (and their true leader) would like to take credit for much more than history actually records. Let us not glorify them. Paganism never quite lives up to its own self-portrait.

There's a song that keeps running through my head, "Christmas helps us to remember, to do what other folks hold dear." Not all the spending, or even the over-spending, that goes on at Christmas has to do with "greed" or gratification of "lusts". This is the time of year when we can lay aside our timidities and give to those we love. What if we sacrifice a bit of our selves. What if the merchant is enriched as well as our friend--it's Christmas. God gave Himself to us. It is that thought that helps us step outside ourselves and give a bit extra to each other.

At our house, we have a tree. It is a fir tree. (We can still get real trees where I live--though we can't go out and cut our own as we once did.) It will die. And as it dies it will release its perfume. More than it does in its living, it will bless us in its dying. I see symbolism here that looks beyond the manger to a life of blessing and a death of saving. We have lights on our tree--and an angel on the top--the one my oldest son picked out the Christmas he was five. We will remember--stars and angels and Bethlehem and Christmases past. Our tree trimmings all have history--some we made when our children were little, some were gifts from very dear friends, some are merely decorative. Our traditions bind us as a family--and not just our visible family. We celebrate the birthday of our Elder Brother.

For you who do not see beyond the commercialization or paganization of Christmas, I pray that your eyes may be opened. May you see, and feel, and know, along with those of us who celebrate, the peace and love and joy and hope that is kindled anew with each remembrance of His birth.

For you who sing the songs of Christmas...May your hearts open to his love and peace in a new and joyfully intense way on this Christmas.

God bless,

Bille Burdick

At Issue Editor

[Guest]

What a brilliant essay promoting the marriage of paganism and Christianity, and all in the name of God.

Ronald Hutton, distinguished Professor of History at the University of Bristol, in his excellent book The Stations of the Sun, has this to say about the story of the Nativity:

Quote:

"It makes sense on a mythological level--an archetypal representation of the birth of a hero at the junction of many worlds, (who is) engendered partly of humans and partly of the divine, born in a location that is neither indoors nor in the open air, belonging partly to humans and partly to animals, and adored by those on the margins of society."

The first written record of the reason for this holiday's occurrence on December 25th was in 354 AD, in Rome, when one scholar wrote: "It was customary for pagans to celebrate the birth of the sun...when the doctors of the Church perceived that the Christians had a leaning to this festival, they took counsel and resolved that the true Nativity should be solemnized on that day."

If one chooses to celebrate the Christchild's birth on December 25, do so. But don't do it because everyone else does it. And for heaven's sake, don't try to argue it out with a "feel good" "what if" commentary. It did NOT happen the way Mr/Ms Burdick describes in his/her delusional fantasy.

And btw, the same kind of "logic" used in Burdick's essay on celebrating Christmas can also be applied to worshipping on Sunday vs. Saturday. IMHO

Think about it.

[Woody]

There is nothing "sacred" about the day we celebrate the birth of Christ. We could pick anyday. I say that taking over a "pagan" day is better than just taking "any" day. I am all for it especially if it "had" pagan roots.

December 25th no longer has pagan connections .... the Christians have taken it over PTL. And that is the way it should be.

[jasd]

QR frame:

It has been determined that ancient temples marked the solstices and the equinoxes with strategically incorporated pillars. They represented the four ‘corners’ of the earth. Solomon’s Temple

followed much of the architecture of other ancient temples – and, there is reason to surmise that his Temple marked the ‘corners’ of the earth, as well. That said,

there may have been ‘sanctified’ acknowledgement of the solstices.

Perhaps, Writ makes reference to times and seasons…?

Sacred: of or pertaining to religious objects, rites, or practices; not secular or profane. (among the varied definitions and uses of sacred )

[bevin]

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn174

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If Spence is right, it is now possible to use astronomical records to date the pyramids to the nearest five years. For example, construction of the Great Pyramid at Giza began between 2485 and 2475 BC.

Which, sadly, predates Noah's Flood

/Bevin

[Neil D]

What a brilliant essay promoting the marriage of paganism and Christianity, and all in the name of God.

[Guest]

Do not accuse me falsely of not reading the article you posted. You read it and posted it within the confines of your background and knowledge; please allow me to do the same and make my comments without the snide commentary.

It is okay that you disagree with me. I disagree with you. I may be wrong.

Quote:

What's with this anyway?

I dunno. You're the one who posted the article.

[John317]

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We even know that paganism is arising again, that Christ is being outlawed from public schools and government property while neo-pagan and Gaia (earth) rituals are encouraged. Solstice is once more being celebrated by some. So let's be against pagan elements that have clung to (or grown upon) the holy day called Christmas. Let's be against the secular commercialization of Christmas. But please! Let's not let (or help) these same elements squeeze Christ out of our Christmas!

I agree with the writer that paganism is rising again. Interesting, too, that Ellen White predicted that it would rise again a short time before Christ returns. Ancient cults would be resurrected and gods would be again worshiped as they used to be. That is happening.

I would go one better than the writer, though: paganism is entering into the church as well. I remember it did once before through Dr. John Harvey Kellogg and his book The Living Temple. Ellen White called that crisis the Alpha. She said the Omega would follow. (If possible, get a book called Omega II God's Church at the Brink, Lewis R. Walton. Automated Order Line 805- 872-0156.)

The Alpha was about God's being in everything, i.e., pantheism. It destroyed the heavenly sanctuary and Christ's High Priestly ministry. It did away with God's law. It did away with the Third Angels' Messages. It did away with Christ's righteousness. The Omega will do the same, only it will have a worse affect on the church, at least temporarily.

The first thing Satan must do before the Omega strikes is he must get the SDA people to discount and doubt the Spirit of Prophecy (i.e., the writings of Ellen White). That is being done now to a very great extent. Why does Satan first attack the gift of prophecy? Because he knows that as long as we trust, study, and follow God's instructions in the Spirit of Prophecy, we will never accept the false doctrines of the Omega.

I believe the Omega will be just the opposite of the Alpha, as they are on opposite ends of the alphabet. As Alpha portrayed God as being everywhere and in all of us and indeed in all the animals and in all the plants--so the Omega will portray Christ and the gospel as only something completely exterior to us that happened 2000 years ago. The law of God will be done away with. Christ's sanctuary and High Priestly Ministry will be done away with as will also the Third Angels' Messages. Sanctification will be done away with, and the Sabbath will be viewed as relatively unimportant. The cry will be, "Believe, only believe." Our actual life will be seen as irrelevent in relation to salvation. How is this like paganism? Because it is having the same effect as the little horn, anti-christ power of Daniel 8:9-13 which takes away God's sanctuary and throws the truth about God to the ground.

Rev. 16: 13 mentions three evil spirits that look like frogs that come out of the mouth of dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of false prophet. Verse 14 says, "They are the spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty...[The context is just before Christ's return, when the seven last plagues are in the process of being poured out on the world.] Then they [the evil spirits that look like frogs] gather the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon."

The dragon represents paganism. As the article says, it is rising again and becoming aggressively active. That being the case, should we be astonished to see paganism's influence reaching within the very gates of God's church, yes, even within the hearts of many of God's people? Shouldn't we then do better not to accept it but to make a complete break with it?

[Neil D]

Quote:

Do not accuse me falsely of not reading the article you posted. You read it and posted it within the confines of your background and knowledge; please allow me to do the same and make my comments without the snide commentary.

Oh good grief!

I posted it for discussion. You replied. I commented on your assumption and the pointed out the disparitys.

My conclusion to your reading the article is a valid one based upon the evidences that I have pointed out.

And now you state that I am making false accusations and making snide commentary....

Snide commentary would be if I said that your accusitory comments impeach your own character...and I only offer that as an example. As for false accusations, well, I guess rebuttal to your rebuttal is a matter of semantics....and motive.

Change is scary in the church...but truth is always our pursuit...But then the prophets were not welcomed either....

[olger]

I remember Mrs. Burdick from the old GC forum. Bacchiocchi & i responded to something she wrote in favor of women's right etc..

As for xmas, I continue to believe that if the Lord had wanted us to commemorate it, he would have told us. He didnt. It is man's invention.

[Woody]

What rights? I didn't think they had any.

[olger]

I'm sure you don't.

og

[Neil D]

As for xmas, I continue to believe that if the Lord had wanted us to commemorate it, he would have told us. He didnt. It is man's invention.

Hmmmmmm....so Monday and Tuesday, ect are man's invention at keeping time, eh?

[Guest]

Quote:

but truth is always our pursuit..

okay. Semantics.

Christmas, as a Christian "Holy Day," was begun by the Church Fathers as a means to involve pagans with Christianity. You can also turn that around and say that Satan used the pagan Yule Tide as a means to immerse Christians in pagan ritual. It can work both ways with neither population being aware of the subtleties of the other.

From what I understand and have read, pagans have celebrated many of their sabbats, such as Yule, long before the Jewish race was a glimmer in Abraham's eye. If a Christian feels better about celebration of Christ's birth during the Christmas (Yule) season by semantically erasing the pagan origins, that's fine. I guess.

But, in all honesty, just how many Christians out there truly use that time as a time of reflection of Christ, His birth, His life, His death, His resurrection - other than the time you go to that special church presentation? It is a time of holly and mistletoe, pretty Christmas music, exchanging gifts, students getting vacation time, and the sound of credit cards being used. There's nothing inherently wrong with any of that. Kids love it. It is Christian tradition. But I do no not see it as honoring Christ.

And, btw, the celebration of many pagan rites and festivals, such as the solstices, are not just now rising back into the world. They have been celebrated down through the centuries of time. It is that pagans, like the early Christians, have been persecuted, and much of what they did was not privy to Christiandom. It IS true, however, that OPEN pagan expression of beliefs and traditions are RAPIDLY on the rise now.

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So let's be against pagan elements that have clung to (or grown upon) the holy day called Christmas. Let's be against the secular commercialization of Christmas. But please! Let's not let (or help) these same elements squeeze Christ out of our Christmas!

Again, it was the Early Church Fathers who made Christmas a "holy day" - the pagans were not parasitic to that holy day.... 'twas the other way around.

[olger]

"Again, it was the Early Church Fathers who made Christmas a "holy day" - the pagans were not parasitic to that holy day.... 'twas the other way around." I like this guy.

og

[Neil D]

Quote:

Christmas, as a Christian "Holy Day," was begun by the Church Fathers as a means to involve pagans with Christianity. You can also turn that around and say that Satan used the pagan Yule Tide as a means to immerse Christians in pagan ritual. It can work both ways with neither population being aware of the subtleties of the other.

But what made it special to the pagans? What was it,that made that time of year special? Why did the pagan claim it to be so special? IOWs, as Billie Burdick attempted to point out so pointedly, WHAT WAS THE REASON that this time of year attracted the pagan's interest?

Anything that involved the celestial would have been God inspired, would it not? Only the interpretation of that event would have been so perverted.

Your focus that the christian religion is placing on the Christ's birth during a Pagan ritual/event , is a mixing of current day paganism and is misplaced at best.

The general Chistian and western population could care less about the pagan culture as was once flurishing over 1500 years ago...The current season, defined as Christ's birth or Dec. 25 is more of Christian origion than pagan. And while there is the distaction of the clinking of monies being exchanged, wouldn't you agree that is more of the current god being worshiped...the love of money mixed with the love of selflessness? Is not the god of greed more to be feared during this time than whether there is a green tree with lights on it with presents under the tree? Would you not agree that the people of this season, while harried and put about, are infact a bit more forgiving, more understanding and have afew more smiles than at other times of the year? And other than we have gotten Christ's birthday totally wrong, what is wrong with those attitudes?

IOWs, why are we making mountians out of molehills?

[Guest]

Quote:

Your focus that the christian religion is placing on the Christ's birth during a Pagan ritual/event , is a mixing of current day paganism and is misplaced at best.

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The general Chistian and western population could care less about the pagan culture as was once flurishing over 1500 years ago...

I never said anything about "current day paganism" unless you consider 3000+ years as current day. Indeed, I said:

Quote:

pagans have celebrated many of their sabbats, such as Yule, long before the Jewish race was a glimmer in Abraham's eye.

The fact that you "could care less" about pagan culture is laudable.....to Satan. And no, I am NOT saying that the Christian celebration of Christmas is satanic.

Quote:

Anything that involved the celestial would have been God inspired, would it not?

No... you answered your own question... that the interpretation of heavenly and earthly events can be perverted. God did not inspire the worship of the sun or the worship of the seasons manifested by the trajectory of the sun and the moon.

But aside from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?

[Neil D]

Quote:

No... you answered your own question... that the interpretation of heavenly and earthly events can be perverted. God did not inspire the worship of the sun or the worship of the seasons manifested by the trajectory of the sun and the moon.

Even though the sun and the seasons were created by God, and so moved the ancient people to make up stories about that, those very same seasons and the sun must be pagan...

I don't think so.

[Guest]

Even though the sun and the seasons were created by God, and so moved the ancient people to make up stories about that, those very same seasons and the sun must be pagan...I don't think so.

Nota bene, I never said that.

In a way, I feel that this thread is playing with fire - and not merely the fires of Beltaine or Yule. Be careful.

I am stepping out of this thread at this time.

[Neil D]

Quote:

Nota bene, I never said that.

I know that. Nevertheless, it is a logical extension of your arguement. And it falls outside your nice logical box. And because EGW didn't say it, or some prominate Pastor, you disavow that it has any logical place in the arguement.

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In a way, I feel that this thread is playing with fire - and not merely the fires of Beltaine or Yule. Be careful.

No it's not. Ms. Burdick basically said that we Christians need to celebrate Christmas for Christ's sake, and not what the world is attempting to suplant. Her arguments to celebrate Christmas were for those who felt that to celebrate any form of Christmas was pagan in the first place. Her arguements were in celebration of Christmas and in that wonderous time before that caused the ancients to write and pass on myth traditions.

And you have to admit, Christmas season, is a moment of one's thinking at a time of year when the emphasis is on giving and kindness and forgiving... And it is a time when compassion and kindness are especially brought out among human beings...

[Guest]

**wanders into thread again**

Quote:

Nota bene, I never said that.

I know that. Nevertheless, it is a logical extension of your arguement. And it falls outside your nice logical box. And because EGW didn't say it, or some prominate Pastor, you disavow that it has any logical place in the arguement.

[Neil D]

Give it up Neil, some people will always be afraid and never take back the night!

You're right Ca. Some people just are too afraid to see life in grays, instead of black and white...And they can never be as compassionate as those who can empthise [sp] and understand concepts that are outside thier little world.

[David Koot]

Except in this case, the other person in the dialogue may know way more about the subject. Certainly there are times when one would do well to defer to others who have greater knowledge about something.

Dave

[Tom Wetmore]

(Hiking oneself up by the old bootstraps)

OR one may think they know way more...

And greater knowledge about something far too often doesn't walk hand in hand with wisdom...

Tom

[David Koot]

OR one may think they {sic} know way more