The 1888 message and the 1888 Message Study Committee

[skyblue888]

As far as I am concerned, for many years, I have studied the publications of Wieland and Short and of the 1888 Committee. At first I was greatly helped as far as making me realize that the 1888 message was a most precious message sent from Heaven and that, sadly, it had been resisted by the leadership. See 1 S.M. 234,235.

Some years ago, my eyes were finally opened to see the simplicity of that message and I wondered why I had not come across it in the many books written by Wieland and Short or from the publications put out by the 1888 Committee. After all they were supposed to be the experts on 1888!!!

In 1950, Wieland and Short published their first edition of THE 1888 MESSAGE RE-EXAMINED. It is an excellent book except for one thing, the message itself is missing! In the book, the authors state that the message was on the verge of being discovered. "Manit would seem that a few are on the verge of discovery." p.242,243.y even in the world today are trying to discover the light which God revealed to His people in 1888. No one has so far been successful. Religious thinkers are yearning for something no one clearly understands, though it would seem that a few are on the verge of discovery."

37 years later, Wieland and Short published their revised edition of this book and on page 184, they had this confession to make: "It would seem that 1888 presents a problem unique in the long history of God's confrontation with His people. There is a precious truth involved therein that seems more elusive than any in the history of past ages." Wieland and Short, 1888 Message Re-Examined, Second Edition, 1987, p.184.

Mrs. White had declared that though the message was just as simple as ABC, we didn't understand it! On Sabbath, May 11, 1889, shortly after the Minneapolis conference, Mrs. White, while giving a lecture in Ottawa, Kansas, said, "We do not understand the matter of salvation. It is just as simple as ABC. But we don't understand it." Manuscript 1, 1889.

Earlier, at a morning talk during the General Conference in November of 1883, Mrs. White spoke to the ministers who had gathered there. She said,

"Some seem to feel that they must be on probation and must prove to the Lord that they are reformed, before they may claim His blessing. But these dear souls may claim the blessing even now. They must have His grace, the Spirit of Christ, to help their infirmities, or they cannot form a Christian character. Jesus loves to have us come to Him, just as we are--sinful, helpless, dependent."

His blessing = His grace = Spirit of Christ.

This statement is a jewel but it must be put alongside a couple more statements. We must compare statement with statement as told in 1 S.M.42: "The testimonies will be the key that will explain the messages given, as Scripture explains Scripture."

Three years later, in July 4, 1892, an article written by Mrs. White appeared in the Signs of the Times in which she tells us, in clear, distinct lines, what we must do in order to obtain His blessing, His grace, the Spirit of Christ. It must be read along with the statement we have just read above. Here it is: "It is not God's will that you should be distrustful and torture your soul with the fear that God will not accept you because you are sinful and unworthy. Present your case (sinful, helpless, unworthy, dependent) before Him, pleading the merits of the blood shed for you upon Calvary's cross." Say to Him, "Lord, I have no merit or goodness whereby I may claim salvation (His blessing, His grace, the Spirit of Christ to help my infirmities, to form a Christian character), but I present before you the merits of the all-atoning blood of the spotless Lamb of God. This is my only plea."

If we will read these three statements in relation to the matter of salvation, we cannot help but marvel at the simplicity of the Gospel as presented in 1888. In these three statements we have the 1888 message in clear, distinct lines! No need to speculate endlessly. It is in harmony with the Laodicean message which brother Jones presented at the 1893 General Conference.

Many more passages can be quoted in support of the above but I will content myself, for now, to quoting only a few more. "The merits of Christ are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." Steps to Christ, p.36.

If God says it is sufficient to present to Him the merits of His Son in order for us to receive His blessing, His grace, the Spirit of Christ, to help our infirmities, to form a Christian character, then IT IS SUFFICIENT! He says so!

This is what He has said and therefore this is what we need to do and nothing else. He has even told us that He is pleased with us when we believe that it is our privilege to accept the merits of His Son and to claim them as our own! Then "Jesus places His own merits upon us" and we are made partakers of His grace which accomplishes everything.

"Unless he makes it his lifebusiness to look to Jesus and to accept His merits which it is his privilege to claim, the sinner can no more be saved than Peter could walk upon the water unless he kept his eyes fixed steadily upon Jesus." Testimonies to Ministers, p.93.

This last statement is found under the subtitle, REJECTING THE LIGHT and the context is the 1888 message.

So we must come to God as we are, moment by moment, and keep our eyes fixed steadily upon Christ and His all-sufficient merits, claiming them, and then expect His blessing, His grace, the Spirit of Christ, to help our infirmities and to form a Christian character!

"Looking unto Jesus and trusting in His merits, we appropriate the blessings of light and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." Testimonies, Vol.5, p.744.

This, according to the words of inspiration, is the 1888 message in clear, distinct lines! T.M.93.

Just as simple as ABC!

sky

[John317]

Quote:

So we must come to God as we are, moment by moment, and keep our eyes fixed steadily upon Christ and His all-sufficient merits, claiming them, and then expect His blessing, His grace, the Spirit of Christ, to help our infirmities and to form a Christian character!

"Looking unto Jesus and trusting in His merits, we appropriate the blessings of light and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." Testimonies, Vol.5, p.744.

This, according to the words of inspiration, is the 1888 message in clear, distinct lines! T.M.93.

Just as simple as ABC!

I completely agree. THIS IS ALL THERE IS IF ONLY WE WOULD GRASP IT AND PUT IT INTO PRACTICE DAILY, MOMENT BY MOMENT.

It's important to see that for Ellen White, Waggoner and Jones, the gospel is much more than what Christ did 2000 years ago but that the gospel includes the promises of God to change us and also includes the change itself. The gospel, according to their writings, includes both justification and sanctification.

[skyblue888]

John, you said, "I completely agree. THIS IS ALL THERE IS IF ONLY WE WOULD GRASP IT AND PUT IT INTO PRACTICE DAILY, MOMENT BY MOMENT."

Exactly! How nice it is to see eye to eye!

God bless!!

sky

This statement in my previous post had a couple of typos in it. I don't understand what happened because I made sure there were none before I posted it. The last sentence of the paragraph even landed at the beginning and some letters were missing! Kind of strange! Here it is again.

"Many even in the world today are trying to discover the light which God revealed to His people in 1888. No one has so far been successful. Religious thinkers are yearning for something no one clearly understands, though it would seem that a few are on the verge of discovery."

[John317]

John, you said, "I completely agree. THIS IS ALL THERE IS IF ONLY WE WOULD GRASP IT AND PUT IT INTO PRACTICE DAILY, MOMENT BY MOMENT."

Exactly! How nice it is to see eye to eye!

God bless!!

sky

This statement in my previous post had a couple of typos in it. I don't understand what happened because I made sure there were none before I posted it. The last sentence of the paragraph even landed at the beginning and some letters were missing! Kind of strange! Here it is again.

"Many even in the world today are trying to discover the light which God revealed to His people in 1888. No one has so far been successful. Religious thinkers are yearning for something no one clearly understands, though it would seem that a few are on the verge of discovery."

I think one of the big problems that keep all of us from seeing as clearly as we might is that we have a hard time believing the Bible means exactly what it says. Salvation really is by faith in Christ alone, but it is a continuous, not a passing, faith, nor is it a feeling or an intellectual belief, but a complete reliance on Christ as our personal Savior from sin and as the Master of our lives.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

John, you said, "I completely agree. THIS IS ALL THERE IS IF ONLY WE WOULD GRASP IT AND PUT IT INTO PRACTICE DAILY, MOMENT BY MOMENT."

Exactly! How nice it is to see eye to eye!

God bless!!

sky

This statement in my previous post had a couple of typos in it. I don't understand what happened because I made sure there were none before I posted it. The last sentence of the paragraph even landed at the beginning and some letters were missing! Kind of strange! Here it is again.

"Many even in the world today are trying to discover the light which God revealed to His people in 1888. No one has so far been successful. Religious thinkers are yearning for something no one clearly understands, though it would seem that a few are on the verge of discovery."

I think one of the big problems that keep all of us from seeing as clearly as we might is that we have a hard time believing the Bible means exactly what it says. Salvation really is by faith in Christ alone, but it is a continuous, not a passing, faith, nor is it a feeling or an intellectual belief, but a complete reliance on Christ as our personal Savior from sin and as the Master of our lives.

Exactly. One other thing is that some of our teachings, which includes "accepting Christ as a personal Saviour," have, over the years, become mere cliches, the result being that many of us have only a "nominal" faith in Christ.

"Many have a nominal faith in Christ, but they know nothing of that vital dependence upon Him which appropriates the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour." 1 S.M.389.

As far as I can remember, in all the years I have been connected with Adventism, I can't say that the teaching that we are to daily appropriate the merits of Christ to ourselves in order to be justified and sanctified has been something that has been made much of, if at all! The arch-enemy of all righteousness has cast his shadow across our pathway to intercept every ray of heavenly light. The devil is afraid that we will do just what the Lord has invited us to do: to appropriate the merits of Christ to ourselves. He knows that if we do this consistently, we will be greatly blessed and that the powers of hell will not be able to prevail against us!

"You cannot save yourself from the tempter's power, but he trembles and flees when the merits of Christ's precious blood are urged." Testimonies, Vol.5, p.317.

sky

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

I think one of the big problems that keep all of us from seeing as clearly as we might is that we have a hard time believing the Bible means exactly what it says. Salvation really is by faith in Christ alone, but it is a continuous, not a passing, faith, nor is it a feeling or an intellectual belief, but a complete reliance on Christ as our personal Savior from sin and as the Master of our lives. [/quote']

Exactly. One other thing is that some of our teachings, which includes "accepting Christ as a personal Saviour," have, over the years, become mere cliches, the result being that many of us have only a "nominal" faith in Christ.

"Many have a nominal faith in Christ, but they know nothing of that vital dependence upon Him which appropriates the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour." 1 S.M.389.

As far as I can remember, in all the years I have been connected with Adventism, I can't say that the teaching that we are to daily appropriate the merits of Christ to ourselves in order to be justified and sanctified has been something that has been made much of, if at all! The arch-enemy of all righteousness has cast his shadow across our pathway to intercept every ray of heavenly light. The devil is afraid that we will do just what the Lord has invited us to do: to appropriate the merits of Christ to ourselves. He knows that if we do this consistently, we will be greatly blessed and that the powers of hell will not be able to prevail against us!

"You cannot save yourself from the tempter's power, but he trembles and flees when the merits of Christ's precious blood are urged." Testimonies, Vol.5, p.317.

sky

I'm studying the 1888 Message myself right now. I'm reading all of the writings of Waggoner and Jones from 1886 to 1900 as well as the E.G. White 1888 Materials. I read the Wieland and Short books years ago. They caused me to be interested but as you pointed out, they don't tell us anything much about the message itself.

I have a personal friend, an SDA pastor, who worked as an associate pastor with Wieland while at Brawley, CA, in the 1980s, and he was not impressed at all with Wieland's scholarship. He said Wieland was rather "sloppy or careless". But be that as it may I feel gratitude toward Wieland for his contribution to the focus on 1888. I would like to see a book written which offers a good analysis of exactly what the content of the 1888 Message was insofar as it can be known with any certitude. I have yet to see one, except a book as I recall that basically says we can't know for sure anything about it.

[Beryl]

Thank you, Sky, for your quotes. I especially appreciate these, because it is something that so many people have trouble in grasping, and yet it is simplicity itself! Christ died in my stead, He had not sinned, so He rose again -- and all of what He had won back in my stead belongs to me -- I only have to accept it!

We need to be reminded of this dailt!

God bless you,

Beryl

[Denise]

Quote:

Thank you, Sky, for your quotes. I especially appreciate these, because it is something that so many people have trouble in grasping, and yet it is simplicity itself! Christ died in my stead, He had not sinned, so He rose again -- and all of what He had won back in my stead belongs to me -- I only have to accept it!

We need to be reminded of this dailt!

Amen Beryl! we need to be reminded of this daily and accept this moment by moment! We also need to talk of this more, which I don't even hear it often, and I am grateful that I can come on here and hear when others talk about this. God Bless everyone today!!

[Ron Lambert]

Skyblue888, I am glad for your efforts in opening this thread. I applaud the efforts of the 1888 Message Study Committee, too. I read the Wieland and Short "1888 Re-Examined: A Warning and Its Reception" back in the mid-1960s. But I have to ask: What are you saying that has not been said a million times before? Don't give me any quotes. Tell me plainly in your own words.

I am still not convinced that the real light that was lost after 1888 has yet been recovered. The light cannot be dug up or recreated by us. It must be offered by God again.

[skyblue888]

Skyblue888, I am glad for your efforts in opening this thread. I applaud the efforts of the 1888 Message Study Committee, too. I read the Wieland and Short "1888 Re-Examined: A Warning and Its Reception" back in the mid-1960s. But I have to ask: What are you saying that has not been said a million times before? Don't give me any quotes. Tell me plainly in your own words.

I am still not convinced that the real light that was lost after 1888 has yet been recovered. The light cannot be dug up or recreated by us. It must be offered by God again.

Thanks for your appreciation Ron. To tell you in my own words... I have read all of their publications and I have not found one instance where the heart of the 1888 message is given any emphasis in any way, shape or form. You say it has been repeated "a million times" and yet you say that the message cannot be dug up!!! No. It has not been repeated a million times. Far from it. It has been hidden from us and it can be safely said that not one in one hundred understands this message for himself. As far as you saying that the message cannot be dug up, we will have to agree to disagree on that. All one need to do to discover the heart of the 1888 message is to turn to Testimonies to Ministers, and read what is under the subtitle, REJECTING THE LIGHT from pages 89 to 98, paying special attention to pages, 92,93,96,97.

According to the pen of inspiration, the heart of the message was a focus on the merits of Christ and how we are to daily appropriate them by faith. Unless we do this, we cannot be saved. Read it on page 93.

Please check the references I gave you before responding.

Thank you.

sky

[Ron Lambert]

If anyone has truly recovered the light that came in 1888 and was lost because of resistance, he should be able to summarize it succintly in one paragraph or less, as we can with all our other church doctrines, and yet make it perfectly clear, so we can immediately see how it is different from things that have been taught before by us and by the Protestant Reformers.

One of the big points Wieland and Short made in their original A Warning and Its Reception was that after the light was resisted and the offer of new light withdrawn by God, the brethen ran on ahead like some presumptuous ones among the children of Israel who ran on ahead and tried to take the Promised Land (to their utter ruin), after they had been ordered by God to spend another forty years in the wilderness because of their rejection of the testimony of Joshua and Caleb. Wieland and Short showed how many of the leading thinkers in the church in similar manner tried to latch onto new enthusiasms (such as Dr. J. H. Kellogg's pantheistic theories, which some actually mistook for the light that came in 1888, and which almost shipwrecked the church at the turn of the century; and later with Hannah Whitehall Smith's "Victorious Living--The Christian's Secret of A Happy Life" that swept the evangelical Protestant world). They went chasing after theories that sounded good, and only led to spiritual confusion. Those who fail to receive the light God gives when He is offering it, are condemned to follow after sparks of their own kindling, if they are not willing to acknowledge their failing and wait for God to offer the light once again, in His own time. This is one of the considerations that led Wieland and Short to call for denominational repentance for the resistance of the light that came in 1888. I fear that Wieland and Short are right. Unless there is a denomination-wide repentance, confessing our corporate sins as Daniel did in Daniel 9, then no one will be able to recover the light no matter what they do, and any who even attempt to will end up in the same confusion as those who have gone before who tried the same thing.

[John317]

new enthusiasms ... and later with Hannah Whitehall Smith's "Victorious Living--The Christian's Secret of A Happy Life" that swept the evangelical Protestant world). They went chasing after theories that sounded good, and only led to spiritual confusion.

In what way was Smith's book wrong? What specifically is in it that you find makes it appropriate to associate it with wrong-headedness or bad doctrine? It says much the same thing as Ellen White's wonderful classic, Steps To Christ, and in fact, Ellen White read it and kept it in her personal library and even rewrote parts of it to be used her own book. It goes without saying-- or at least should-- that this does not mean Ellen White agreed with everything in Smith's book.

[John317]

I think the 1888 Message is contained in Ellen White book, Steps To Christ, and in her books such as Desire of Ages and The Great Controversy, but it is easy to miss it because people tend not to read carefully or take God's promises to mean just exactly what they say. Just like the Bible contains the same wonderful message yet how many people see it? For instance, 1 Peter 2, Romans 6 and 8, 2 Cor. 3, 1 John, and Galatians. It's there is plain language but too of us just don't really believe God means what He says. Maybe it sounds too good to be true.

I went to a Christian book store yesterday and read books on Revelation. It seems like every book there said that when the Bible says, "These are they that keep the commandments of God", it means those people are back under the law and therefore cannot be Christians living under grace but must be Jews. It's amazing how those writers can miss the connection between 1 Cor 3; Romans 8 and Rev 12: 17; 14: 12 and 22: 14.

[skyblue888]

If anyone has truly recovered the light that came in 1888 and was lost because of resistance, he should be able to summarize it succintly in one paragraph or less, as we can with all our other church doctrines, and yet make it perfectly clear, so we can immediately see how it is different from things that have been taught before by us and by the Protestant Reformers.

One of the big points Wieland and Short made in their original A Warning and Its Reception was that after the light was resisted and the offer of new light withdrawn by God, the brethen ran on ahead like some presumptuous ones among the children of Israel who ran on ahead and tried to take the Promised Land (to their utter ruin), after they had been ordered by God to spend another forty years in the wilderness because of their rejection of the testimony of Joshua and Caleb. Wieland and Short showed how many of the leading thinkers in the church in similar manner tried to latch onto new enthusiasms (such as Dr. J. H. Kellogg's pantheistic theories, which some actually mistook for the light that came in 1888, and which almost shipwrecked the church at the turn of the century; and later with Hannah Whitehall Smith's "Victorious Living--The Christian's Secret of A Happy Life" that swept the evangelical Protestant world). They went chasing after theories that sounded good, and only led to spiritual confusion. Those who fail to receive the light God gives when He is offering it, are condemned to follow after sparks of their own kindling, if they are not willing to acknowledge their failing and wait for God to offer the light once again, in His own time. This is one of the considerations that led Wieland and Short to call for denominational repentance for the resistance of the light that came in 1888. I fear that Wieland and Short are right. Unless there is a denomination-wide repentance, confessing our corporate sins as Daniel did in Daniel 9, then no one will be able to recover the light no matter what they do, and any who even attempt to will end up in the same confusion as those who have gone before who tried the same thing.

Succintly in one paragraph or less: In order to obtain the Gift of the Holy Spirit, the Gift that brings all the blessings of the covenant of grace, the merits of Christ's sacrifice are SUFFICIENT to present to the Father in our behalf.

Unless we accept this simple truth with the simple faith of a little child, we cannot be saved.

"Unless he makes it his lifebusiness to look to Jesus and to accept His merits which it is his privilege to claim, the sinner can no more be saved than Peter could walk upon the water unless he kept his eyes fixed steadily upon Jesus." Testimoninies to Ministers, p.93.

This is the bottom line of the 1888 message. This is good enough for me. How about you all?

sky

p.s. At the very heart of the book Steps to Christ is the statement that sums up the whole message: "The merits of Christ's sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.

In a few words, here is the message again: "Through the merits of Christ we may find the approval of God." E.G. White, Our Father Cares, p.121.

sky

[skyblue888]

How many of you can say that these statements I have just quoted stand out in your mind? and if they do, how long have they? When was the first time or the last time you have heard a sermon or read a book with the whole emphasis on the importance of accepting the merits of Christ and believe it is our privilege to claim them, and that unless we make it our lifebusiness to do so, we cannot be saved?

Honestly now! Please anwer, anyone.

sky

Two years following the Minneapolis meeting in 1888, Mrs White wrote:

"When we seek to gain Heaven through the merits of Christ, the soul makes progress, from strength to strength and from victory to victory, for the grace of God has worked out our complete salvation."

"Living faith enables its possessor to lay hold on the merits of Christ, enables him to derive great comfort and satisfaction from the plan of salvation." The Review and Herald, July 1, 1890.

In other words, "Looking unto Jesus and trusting in His merits, we appropriate the blessings of light and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." Testimonies, Vol.5, p.744.

Are not these blessings the blessings of the covenant of grace? And are they not to be obtained simply by looking to Jesus and trusting in His merits? Yes! Yes! Yes!

Thank God! And yet it is written, "We do not understand the matter of salvation. It is just as simple as ABC. But we don't 'understand it." "Well then, what is our position? It must be a position of living faith." "Living faith is essential for our salvation, that we should lay hold upon the merits of the blood of a crucified and risen Saviour, upon the merits of Christ, our righteousness."

Mrs. White was preaching at Ottawa, Kansas, on May 11, 1889, when she made these last statements, a few months after the Minneapolis Conference, representing her simple, practical presentation of the subject. On file as Manuscript 1, 1889; See Faith and Works, p.63-66.

[Ron Lambert]

God chose to send the message of 1888 through A.T. Jones and E.J. Waggoner, not through Ellen G. White. She attested to the validity and divine origin of their message. But no transcripts of their presentations at the 1888 General Conference in Minneapolis are known to exist. Later, she made statements which reflected her understanding, as one who accepted the message of 1888. But I believe her statements only put us in the ballpark. She said that the message of 1888 was "the Third Angel's Message in verity," and she indicated several times that had the message not been resisted, we would already be in Heaven. Apparently just accepting the statements she made was not and has not been enough.

God requires corporate repentence of the Seventh-day Adventist denomination, for its grievous sin of insubordination in resisting the light God sent in 1888 through His chosen messengers. God will never forget this nor set it aside. The Latter Rain of the Holy Spirit will not be given until this is done. Jesus will not return to this world to take His saints from all the world's history, until we recognize the tremendous seriousness of what we as a denomination did. Anyone who denies this and tries to dismiss it, is standing in the way, delaying the Latter Rain, and delaying the Second Coming.

That is what I believe. I have seen and heard and read nothing that persuades me otherwise.

John317, I do not say that what Hannah Whitehall Smith wrote in her book was wrong, I only say it was not the 1888 message. In terms of bringing on the Latter Rain and Second Coming, it was not adequate. For that reason, the enthusiasm of many SDA leaders back in the 1940's over it was unjustified.

Skyblue888, you said:

Quote:

"Succintly in one paragraph or less: In order to obtain the Gift of the Holy Spirit, the Gift that brings all the blessings of the covenant of grace, the merits of Christ's sacrifice are SUFFICIENT to present to the Father in our behalf."

That is not as all-encompassing as you might think. It is not even true. Let me remind you that there are conditions for receiving the Holy Spirit. Notice this one stated by the Apostle Peter and other Apostles, as recorded in Acts 5:32: "And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given [color: red]to them that obey him."

Notice that the Holy Spirit is not poured out in Pentecostal power unless we act on the light the Holy Spirit has already revealed to us, which means accepting all the truth He reveals to us from His Word, and which means accepting the conviction of sin, conviction of righteousness, and conviction of the Judgment of the world (the works of the Spirit Jesus enunciated in John 16:8)--which in turn requires that we confess and repent of our sins, and do all we can to come into harmony with our brethren based on the truth--like the disciples did in the upper room before Pentecost.

Yes, the Atonement of Christ, and the imputation of His righteousness to us, is sufficient to bring us the forgiveness God has already granted us even for the resistance of the light that He offered to our church in 1888. But can Jesus apply His Atonement for sin we do not admit is sin? Can He impute His righteousness to cover us in this regard, if we think we are already righteous in this matter?

Jesus is looking for faith to be seen in His people. Faith that is in Him, to follow Him. But do we have faith in Jesus if we refuse to do that which faith should lead us to do?

What is so hard about admitting that our church sinned in resisting light from God, and saying that we're sorry? It is the church collectively and corporately that sinned, so it is the church collectively and corporately that needs to repent. In what respect is this unreasonable? Why does anyone resist it?

[David Koot]

The Latter Rain of the Holy Spirit will not be given until this is done. Jesus will not return to this world to take His saints from all the world's history, until we recognize the tremendous seriousness of what we as a denomination did. Anyone who denies this and tries to dismiss it, is standing in the way, delaying the Latter Rain, and delaying the Second Coming.

I think that is rather overstating it. First of all, Jesus will return, ready or not--whether certain ones are ready or not. God has been preparing a people. I believe the Adventist church stands in a similar position to the kingdom of Judah in the OT. We are custodians of great Bible truths. However, if those who are invited decline, God will reach out and raise up others who will respond to His invitation. We are told that the greater part of those who now are on the church books will fall away, and that God will raise up others to take their place. God's hands are not tied by Adventists, anymore than they were by the Jews in Jesus' day.

As for the whole 'corporate repentance' thing, I believe it is simply wrong thinking, not Scriptural, nor will you see it happen. What WILL happen will be the shaking, and a small group will remain faithful. I believe Sister White said in her day, not one in 100 were ready. How are things now? It is the faithful few who will stand through the time of trouble. The rest will have fallen away. The 'corpus' will, I fear, be a bit undone.

Now, since I said these things, am I standing in the way of the Latter Rain? I don't think so.

Dave

[David Koot]

By the way, as for the simplicity of the gospel, one way that is often used to summarize it is called the 'prayer of salvation,' or, 'the sinner's prayer.' Personally, I have used, and continue to use the three steps in that prayer, many times in working with people, and I continue to see great blessings.

Dave

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Ron Lambert

The Latter Rain of the Holy Spirit will not be given until this is done. Jesus will not return to this world to take His saints from all the world's history, until we recognize the tremendous seriousness of what we as a denomination did. Anyone who denies this and tries to dismiss it, is standing in the way, delaying the Latter Rain, and delaying the Second Coming.

I think that is rather overstating it. First of all, Jesus will return, ready or not--whether certain ones are ready or not. God has been preparing a people. I believe the Adventist church stands in a similar position to the kingdom of Judah in the OT. We are custodians of great Bible truths. However, if those who are invited decline, God will reach out and raise up others who will respond to His invitation. We are told that the greater part of those who now are on the church books will fall away, and that God will raise up others to take their place. God's hands are not tied by Adventists, anymore than they were by the Jews in Jesus' day.

As for the whole 'corporate repentance' thing, I believe it is simply wrong thinking, not Scriptural, nor will you see it happen. What WILL happen will be the shaking, and a small group will remain faithful. I believe Sister White said in her day, not one in 100 were ready. How are things now? It is the faithful few who will stand through the time of trouble. The rest will have fallen away. The 'corpus' will, I fear, be a bit undone.

Now, since I said these things, am I standing in the way of the Latter Rain? I don't think so.

Dave

I fully agree with you David. Well said. I wrote a small booklet which agree with what you just said. I titled it: THAT WHICH HAS BEEN WILL BE.

Thanks again.

"Are we hoping to see the whole church revived? That time will never come." 1 S.M.122.

[skyblue888]

By the way, as for the simplicity of the gospel, one way that is often used to summarize it is called the 'prayer of salvation,' or, 'the sinner's prayer.' Personally, I have used, and continue to use the three steps in that prayer, many times in working with people, and I continue to see great blessings.

Dave

What are the three steps in your prayer?

What do u think of this one: "Lord, I have no merit or goodness whereby I may claim salvation, but I present before You the all-sufficient merits of the all-atoning blood of Christ. This is my only plea." E.G. White.

[David Koot]

Sounds preachy, and theoretical. Out of touch with the real-life, real-time world. Nice thing to say to the choir, though. When you are dealing with souls who are struggling, who are in the valley of decision, cut to the chase. Cover the essentials. Here are the three steps I use:

1) I realize I am a sinner, I can't fix things alone, I need help.

2) I repent of my sins, I renounce the past, I choose to go a better way.

3) I accept Jesus Christ to stand in my place, to stand as my Substitute. I accept His perfect life to stand in place of mine, and I accept His death on the cross to pay the price for all my sins. And I welcome the new life He wants to give me.

Anyway, with some variations, along that line. I have noticed with interest that at last some Adventists just plain aren't familiar with the prayer of salvation! We may be long on prophecy and the law, but wow! how about the basics of the gospel?

Dave

[Tom Wetmore]

...We may be long on prophecy and the law, but wow! how about the basics of the gospel?

AMEN!

Tom

[skyblue888]

Sounds preachy, and theoretical. Out of touch with the real-life, real-time world. Nice thing to say to the choir, though. When you are dealing with souls who are struggling, who are in the valley of decision, cut to the chase. Cover the essentials. Here are the three steps I use:

1) I realize I am a sinner, I can't fix things alone, I need help.

2) I repent of my sins, I renounce the past, I choose to go a better way.

3) I accept Jesus Christ to stand in my place, to stand as my Substitute. I accept His perfect life to stand in place of mine, and I accept His death on the cross to pay the price for all my sins. And I welcome the new life He wants to give me.

Anyway, with some variations, along that line. I have noticed with interest that at last some Adventists just plain aren't familiar with the prayer of salvation! We may be long on prophecy and the law, but wow! how about the basics of the gospel?

Dave

First of all, David, we may call these "steps to Christ" but in reality they are not for we cannot by ourselves realize our sinfulness, or become aware of our utterly helpless condition. "If you have a sense of need in your soul, if you hunger and thirst for righteousness, this is an evidence that Christ has wrought upon your heart, in order that He may be sought unto to do for you, through the endowment of the Holy Spirit, those things which it is impossible for you to do for yourself." Mount of Blessing, p.19.

One of "those things which it is impossible for you to do for yourself" is to repent. "Can man repent of himself? No more than he can pardon himself." "Then don't ever say that we can repent of ourselves, and then Christ will pardon. No, indeed. It is the favor of God that pardons. It is the favor of God that leads us by His power to repentance. Therefore, it is all of Jesus Christ, everything of Him, and you want to just give back glory to God." E.G.White, Faith and Works, p.73.

"Him (Christ) God exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Saviour, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins." Acts 5:31.

Before He pardons, He gives repentance.

"He who will lay hold of Christ's righteousness need not wait one moment that he himself may blot out his own sins. He need not wait until he has made a suitable repentance before he may take hold of Christ's righteousness. We do not understand the matter of salvation. It is just as simple as ABC. But we don't understand it." Faith and Works, p.64.

As we lay hold, by faith, of Christ's righteousness, Christ produces repentance in the soul. In fact, "Christ's righteousness imparts all the power, all the grace, all the repentance, all the inclination, all the pardon of sins." Faith and Works, p.24.

"Some seem to feel that they must be on probation and must prove to the Lord that they are reformed, before they can claim His blessing. But these dear souls may claim the blessing even now. They must have His grace, the Spirit of Christ, to help their infirmities or they cannot form a Christian character. Jesus loves to have us come to Him as we are--sinful, helpless, dependent." Faith and Works, p.38.

We may come to God (every day, moment by moment) as we are, and then present before Him the merits of the blood shed for us upon Calvary's cross. "Present your case before God pleading the merits of the blood shed for you upon Calvary's cross." Faith and Works, p.106.

For "God will accept everyone that comes to Him trusting wholly in the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour. Love springs up in the heart. (righteousness is love; M.B.18). There may be no feeling of ecstasy but there is an abiding, peaceful trust." 1 S.M.354.

Shortly after 1888, Mrs. White spoke of "the faith which lays right hold upon the merits of the blood of a crucified and risen Saviour to bring Christ's righteousness into the life." Faith and Works, p.65. "Righteousness is love and love is the light and the life of God... and "The life of God in the soul is man's only hope." Mount of Blessing, p.18; Ministry of Healing, p.115.

These statements show that what we call "steps to Christ," are in reality the steps of Christ to us. We can do nothing of ourselves. Therefore, it is written, "Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God." 2 Cor.3:5.

Thus "Blessing and honor and glory and power belong to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, forever and ever." Rev.5:13.

God bless!

sky

[David Koot]

Yes, repentance is something which I typically explain to a person. IN some cases, individuals are dealing with addictions. The desire to change is present, but they have tried many times and failed. I have revised the choice of words I used to describe the steps in the prayer of salvation. One thing I have found is the value of staying away from 'churchy' sounding language. Put it in real-life words, and make it simple and clear-cut.

At any rate, the gospel IMO is quite simple and easily understood.

[skyblue888]

Yes, repentance is something which I typically explain to a person. IN some cases, individuals are dealing with addictions. The desire to change is present, but they have tried many times and failed. I have revised the choice of words I used to describe the steps in the prayer of salvation. One thing I have found is the value of staying away from 'churchy' sounding language. Put it in real-life words, and make it simple and clear-cut.

At any rate, the gospel IMO is quite simple and easily understood.

Repentance is "something which you typically explain to a person." Does that mean that you explain to "that person" that he/she must not feel that he/she is on probation and that he/she must work a suitable repentance before he/she can receive Jesus Christ as his/her personal Saviour?

The very reason why so many fail to overcome their addictions is because they are taught that unless they quit their wrong habits (addictions) they cannot have forgiveness and therefore they cannot receive Jesus as their Saviour. In other words they are taught to repent and forsake their sins before Jesus will accept them and live in their hearts by faith.

I cannot think of any "language" that could be more "churchy sounding" than that, can you?

No, put simply, as the pen of inspiration alone can put it, we daily come to God as we are, sinful, helpless, dependent, trusting wholly in the all-sufficient merits of the Saviour. Then Christ abides in the heart and gives us repentance; He abides in the heart by the Holy Spirit who subdues all our inherited and cultivated tendencies to evil (addictions included) and impresses Christ's character upon us!

There it is, David, the Gospel of 1888, simple and easily understood, the matter of salvation in "real-life words," in "simple and clear-cut" language that no one who is serious about his salvation can fail to understand.

"You cannot have a thought without Christ. You cannot have an inclination to come to Him unless He sets in motion influences and impresses His Spirit upon the human mind. And if there is a man upon the face of the earth who has any inclination toward God, it is because of the many influences that are set to work to bear upon his mind and heart. Those influences call for the allegiance to God and an appreciation of the great work that God has done for him." E.G. White, Faith and Works, p.73.

"What is justification by faith? [color:#000099]It is the work of God in laying the glory (pride) of man in the dust and doing for him that which it is not in his power to do for himself." Testimonies to Ministers, p.456. (brackets mine)

We can do nothing of ourselves!!!

sky