Let's Talk about Honesty

[Guest charis]

Yes...let's talk about honesty. Integrity. And how people should not use other people.

Let's talk about Christianity. Let's talk about leading people on and using them to your own personal advantage. Let's talk about pain that can be caused to another because of someone's irresponsibility and compulsivity.

Let's talk about God. Let's talk about what God's will is... and let's talk about how deceitful people can mirror Christ, but the reflection is somehow warped.

Yes, let's talk about responsibility, particularly if one is in the business of *saving souls*.....let's talk about walking your talk.

**snort**

I realize most people will not understand this post. That's okay....if the shoe fits, wear it.

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

I know what you mean. I've been led on by a well meaning soul, but you know, it was my own fault, for allowing myself to believe anybody could be that good. I've finally discovered that some people act better than others, but it's only because they're afraid of people, they're easily controlled/manipulated by others...

The rest of this is going to be hard for you to read, I apologize for that, but you know, it's worth it to read and consider carefully what's being offered to you Today and Always...

The only thing I can suggest is that you forget about finding people who do everything the way you'd like them to all or at least most of the time, and buddy up with people who irritate the **** out of you. They're the only ones who can help you learn to Love anyone.

Sorry to stick a thorn on the rose - we do live in a sinful world as sinful people who need our Understanding High Priest, even and especially, after people are Saved. That's the Gospel in a nutshell: and it's the Saved yet imPerfect people who are Called to spread the Gospel.

For Heaven's sake, I got baptized and 6 months later, my single youth pastor who baptized me lost his virginity to a woman who didn't love him, but who he thought at least might. Why? Because he's human, she took him off guard and didn't ask first: she was his girlfriend. She worked him up REAL good first, in such a way that he thought he could handle, yet realized too late he couldn't; she got him too turned on and he couldn't keep saying "no" to himself anymore. Thank God he used a condom: I now advocate our young people carrying one with them everywhere, with the intent of not needing to use it, but having it available if things do get bad and they would have done it anyway. I never used to advocate that, before I knew he was capable of letting things get that far with a woman. Before it ever dawned on me that she would be the agresser and that he was so used to being the one being told "no" that when the time came for him to say "no", well, he didn't know when to say it: she got him. Let that be a lesson to all you guys out there: learn when you'll have to say "no."

Anywho, it had nothing to do with what he felt was right and wrong. He knew it was wrong, he'd been "Mr. Purity Speech" and all that for his whole life, had high values/morals, intellectually... But he couldn't stop himself emotionally and physically from wanting sex when he was pushed too far, so he just went for it and actively chose it. And then vomited in her toilet afterwards, cried a lot, and told her how wrong he felt it was that they'd done that. He's never done that again, and God has blessed him with a new girlfriend who is most likely his future wife: she's a virgin, and they have a healthy, loving, supportive, and non-sex-inclusive relationship: they don't push each other too far. Deal with the fact that he's not a virgin: she has.

You know, I'd hate to see a church built by any other type of person, by perfect robots who never eventually get anything truly wrong at least once in awhile. Forget looking for "trustworthy" people. They don't exist. Rather, it's best to learn some good communication skills, good problem-solving skills, which are Love based, (rather than problem-avoidance skills, which are fear based), and to put a person's value far above the badness of their actions.

Everyone messes up, eventually, even you and me. Salvation doesn't mean not being susceptible to giving in to temptations, which abound, by the way. It means that you're Accepted no matter what you do, or when. It means that you are Loved whether you make the right choices or not. It means you can stop worrying about every little jot and tittle. You can bask in God's Love, and if you do happen to do something right, it's because you wanted to with a free and clear conscience, and not because you thought you had to: you can drop your own mask.

People put on masks out of fear - but we all do that, especially those who were raised in such a sterile environment as the Adventist church has been, overall, at least during the last 30 years, though much of that sterility is declining and real human beings are finally being revealed. Sometimes, you just have to get over that, and eventually, drop your own mask and let a few of your own skeletons out of the closet.

Welcome to the real Kingdom. Sorry to be so rude/harsh/awakening to you, but I've been through it myself, and I used to have your opinion on this issue. No longer.

Please pardon the dust: we're being Remodeled, and having our planks removed one toothpick at a time: otherwise, the whole house would fall down into the sand we've built it on. Currently, we're relocating to The Rock, which is Love. We have no rules for who's "good enough" for us, and who isn't. By the way, you, with whatever skeletons you might happen to be ashamed of are Loved and Accepted here too, and just as Welcome into this Family. You're welcome to stay as long as you like, and you'll always be Welcome even if you leave. Those of us who truly are part of the Kingdom of the Spirit of God will agree to that themselves. The rest are free to ponder that Legal Contract all they like, and sign it when they choose. But please pay no mind to their judgmental remarks in the meantime.

By the way, I speak here not to judge you personally, but to shine some Light on a Forgotten Truth: the cross, and the One who Died on it, and what it means that He did that. I invite you into this Family of Forgiveness: if you want to be a member, you only need say the word, and you're in. It's that easy. Even if you can't forgive our lowly mistakes, that's alright: we still Love you. That's the Perk of being part of this Kingdom. You can't mess up, even when you try - you're both allowed to and not allowed to at the same time. Lovely little paradox, eh?

Oh, and by the way, that Contract is one I signed at that Baptism of mine. It's not meant as a list of promises I've made to God. Or even a statement of Beliefs. Nor as a membership in a specific SDA church. Rather, it's my Acceptance of God's Promises to me to:

1. Love me.

2. Guide me.

3. Protect me.

4. Always be with me.

Amongst many, many other Promises He's made me. I depend on Him now, not on my own ability to ever fully know right from wrong, or even to always do the right thing and never, ever give into temptation. I've Accepted Him as my Spiritual Husband. I'm glad to have His Spirit with and in me now and always. I look forward to experiencing seeing Him face to face someday, hopefully soon. I'm Asking Him now for the same and more experiences for you.

Shalom.

[Guest charis]

COG4E, thanks (?) for writing out your lengthy epistle. **sigh** However, you have no idea to whom you are speaking - my background nor my experiences, nor, in fact, do you have any idea of why I wrote what I did. I find much of what you say to be condescending, and non-applicable to my situation.

Glad you're such a happy camper.

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Hey, you're just going to have to take this one at face value, or else decide to trash it all and chalk me up to being a big ol' meanie... In any case, this is what I have to offer:

You can keep feeling sorry for yourself because you obviously have been badly treated, or you can stop letting the poorly chosen actions of others hurt you further by your holding anger against them, by your focusing on what they did that hurt you. It's all about mind control: who's in charge of your emotions, you or the person who acted probably like a major retard to you?

I point out that you don't know the backgrounds or experiences of anyone else here, nor apparently recognize what we have to offer you. I've shared what's relevant here about my Spiritual Journey, in as much of a nutshell as I can.

Thank you for your honesty in what you think of what I said. I fully expected it. I used to stand in the shoes of someone who complained about every single thing you wrote of in your original post. I complained about those because they fit that youth pastor to a T. I felt duped. Like he'd let me believe better of him, on purpose. The truth is, he just lives in fear, even though he preaches Redemption from fear.

Perhaps I should ask you this:

Are you a Christian? If so, then for how long, and why did you become one? Are you an Adventist? Same follow up question. What of your situation do you want to share, even if you don't want me to reply to it, and would rather have others reply?

In the end, everything Offered to you by God and His Family is always offered to you. Whether you want to take it or not. The rest of what I wrote is simply a wake-up call that if you won't take now from me, you're just going to have to learn the long and hard way. Consider yourself fortunate: I didn't have anyone who could or would give me the above "epistle" - I had to go through long, treacherous months and gallons of tears, pretty much having to figure it all out for myself as that youth pastor just spent all his time finding another girl-friend and really not being too interested in helping me learn these intricate things after being slapped in the face with this. God was with me, but I was hurting so bad I was barely Aware of His Presence at all.

For the sake of the general principles of the Kingdom of the Spirit that I stated above, it's really true: I don't care if it was your dad, your daughter, your best friend, your boss, your pastor, your teacher... It simply doesn't matter what title they have or have had in your life, nor even if one of them raped you, regarding the above principles only. Of course, your love for them and your experience with them matters, and most of all, your heart matters. For Heaven's sake, I'm not a completely heartless Cretan. But without my knowing anything of your situation, I can't even feel sorry for it, much less for you. I invite you to reconsider holding it against me that I don't know what you haven't shared. But even if you do, which you have every right as a human being to do and know that you're Loved anyway, I do seriously invite you to glean the rather all-inclusive and very Real Truths from what I wrote above. I invite you to stop pitying yourself for the 2 seconds it takes to apply them to your situation, even though you have every right to pity yourself for all of Eternity, if you choose to do so.

I used to think people had to take personal responsibility. That they had to always be honest. That they had to, had to, had to... Because I thought I had to... I thought my Salvation and my Spiritual Social Life were all up to me, and rested on my good behavior, my good treatment of others, my following the rules... and that all I had to do was really, royally mess up once, and I should expect to be out of the Family forever. It's been a long, hard Journey for me, and it was quite a shocker to me when I finally realized the truth: we don't own each other, and we don't own ourselves either. Rather, God Takes Care of us, as His Bride and Brides...

Yes, He lets hideous things happen to us, for many reasons, but one of them is simply so that we'll recognize our great need for Him, we'll Trustingly Ask Him, even repeatedly if He makes us wait for what seems like too long, to deal with everything, and we'll keep on Trustingly Waiting for Him to respond... We'll Trustingly do whatever it is He chooses to give us to do, when He gives that, and when we are sure that He has given it to us Himself, and we know that we didn't seek it for ourselves of others or of this world.

Quick, easy fixes are tempting, but empty. God really is the only Provider of those things that can help us in the details of our own individual situations. We can only be here to point each other to Him, and to share our own testimonies in hopes that doing so will somehow help each other. We can't fix each others problems, and that's not what the imperfect human beings in this Family are here for. Well, most of us come into the Family looking for that. But we never find it, no matter how long and hard we keep seeking that out in each other. Only God can really Solve our Problems, and the only thing we need do is just Ask, Trust, Wait, and only do something if He directly Hands it to us to do. If He doesn't yet, well, we keep on waiting.

That has to do with things we can't help, such as needing a job in a bad job market where no one wants to hire us, or wanting a spouse when there's just no one available, or wanting the health of a sick child to improve when there is no hope given by the Dr's (and yes, I do believe in using hospitals along with Prayer, etc). Even when it's the abusive attitude of someone we trusted and are currently completely dependent on.

We are powerless over the outcome of these things. But we are not powerless to simply get on our knees with Trust in our hearts, Ask, Wait, and eventually Receive, while Trusting all the while, and Forgiving ourselves if we do happen to fail to Trust, and then eventually want to Trust again.

This Family isn't about people being responsible to each other nor about them trusting each other. This Family is about leaving each other in God's Hands and Letting Him Fix that which actually needs fixing: even if it's our own hearts and attitudes, as I had to learn the hard way.

Sorry for trying to make it a little easier on you than I had it myself by telling you the real truth rather than standing idly by and letting you wallow in the world of "if only people would treat me right, and do to me like I've done to them (while I conveniently forget all my past mistakes...)". Sorry for the free advice that could change your world. I won't apologize for bothering, nor will I stop Praying for you.

I will however not allow anything you have to say about my character to have any real influence on me, and I invite everyone else here to take the same attitude with you. You can't change anyone else in your life, nor yourself, and you can't change us. This isn't about people changing or fixing people: it's about Allowing God to do whatever He's going to do and leaving it up to Him. I didn't even write what I wrote to change you: I wrote it as free advice that you could hopefully use to save yourself even more long, hard months of emotional grief and torture. If you want to go the long route, that's your choice. I'm still here with you as long as you want me here, and I think everyone else here who's really part of the Kingdom can and will say the same thing.

Other than these things, I have no idea what else I can offer you. What I won't offer you is some kind of "yes-friend" and say "yes, we should all be better people, we should expect ourselves to always get it right, just for you." It seems to me that this is not what you actually need, even if you think you do, if that's what you think, which is how you've come across. If you don't think that, please clarify what you do think. I obviously rather desperately need a recap on that one, if I've misread what you wrote.

Also, what I wrote might have been condescending. Sometimes, there's nothing wrong with that, when it comes from an experienced Traveler on this particular Spiritual Path, and it's coming towards someone who so starkly reminds them of their former self, as they were, at the start of that incredibly long and hard Journey of the heart. It doesn't matter that I've not had your exact experiences down to the letter. I've had enough of my own personal experiences, that I've gleaned a lot of general road-markers from, to see the road ahead, know where the potholes are, and at least tell you about them when I do happen to see them. But I'll let you fall in, if you insist. And I'll wait here to lend you a hand once you decide you want to climb out of them. More condescension from me? Yes. When it's needed, and only then, as I sense the Spirit Leading me to give it to you.

You might be shocked to know that I love cats, in particular kittens, and I love cuddling up to them. And I let them scratch me from time to time, without getting angry with them. You have the same privilege with me, from now on.

Because of how I read what you wrote your post, you came across to me as a person who believes in people being perfect after Salvation and in them doing whatever you think they are supposed to, after that point in time. And in your having to answer to everyone else for every misstep after that point as well. If that's entirely inaccurate, I apologize for reading your post that way.

In the end, know that regardless of how you've come across to me or anyone else, you are Loved. That's the most important thing.

[Guest charis]

Uh...the Spirit is leading you to write this? Well, that's very noble, but I have come to look with a suspicious eye on people who say God told them to tell me something. :R

COG4E said:

Quote:

you came across to me as a person who believes in people being perfect after Salvation and in them doing whatever you think they are supposed to, after that point in time.

I hold no such beliefs.

COG4E said:

Quote:

I will however not allow anything you have to say about my character to have any real influence on me, and I invite everyone else here to take the same attitude with you.

I didn't say anything about your character.

COG4E said:

Quote:

I point out that you don't know the backgrounds or experiences of anyone else here, nor apparently recognize what we have to offer you. I've shared what's relevant here about my Spiritual Journey..

Guess what? I'm not interested in your spiritual journey atm.

COG4E said:

Quote:

Are you a Christian?"

THAT isn't any of your business, dearheart.

Truly, you have taken the subject here and ran with it as if it was the Olympic Torch. Calm down - I have. Give it a rest.

**gathers up her things and leaves the thread**

[Guest charis]

**turns back to leave a gift**

The Rose

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Uh...the Spirit is leading you to write this? Well, that's very noble, but I have come to look with a suspicious eye on people who say God told them to tell me something. :R

COG4E said:

Quote:

I will however not allow anything you have to say about my character to have any real influence on me, and I invite everyone else here to take the same attitude with you.

I didn't say anything about your character.

Hmm... And yes, the Spirit Led me to write those things. Because I knew you would judge me. It was in your original post.

If you can't handle honesty, don't ask for it.

**Doesn't let others hand her sticks with thorns growing out of them, that just look like pretty flowers, and doesn't hand them out, either***

[Guest charis]

I am not impressed by bombastic pseudo-christian behavior.

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Nor am I. But I don't let it affect who I am as a person, nor what I feel for others in my heart when others behave that way toward me. You've only proven my point, over and over, that you are into perfectionism and behavioralism, which is what your original post drips of, as do your subsequent posts. You've not shown me that you even care about anything else, and that you're only looking for reasons to be disgusted with people, to keep them out, to build up those walls, because really, you're afraid of us, since we're so unpredictable, so unstable, so unreliable, so "dishonest" (in your view) as it were. I know this because I know humanity, and I know what drives a person to leave the kinds of posts you've left. You are not alone. All of us have walked in the shoes of a person who would leave these kinds of sincerely fear-filled and hurting posts. The good news is, you don't have to stay where you are, if you really don't want to.

The first rule of common psychology is that if you're the one complaining, then you're one of the ones who has a problem - that you're dealing with in your own mind, that you're trying to make sense out of. You're the one spending hours, days, or months/years consuming all your time and energy trying to figure out why someone would use or hurt you or lie to you or whatever. Trying to understand if/what you did anything wrong. Playing the blame-game.

The bottom line is this: whether others are to blame, or you are to blame, won't take away what's been done. It's a fact: it's been done. It's an action. But it doesn't define anyone's heart, nor whether they have a Loving heart or not. I'm willing to bet that you're one of the most Loving people in the world. Yet you and I both know that the last time you sinned, you had to admit that you couldn't get it all right, all on your own. You had to admit that you simply needed the Blood of Jesus to cover your sins, so that you could be free to re-connect with that Loving heart of yours, that never stopped being Loving. And you had to learn to let your fears of condemnation go; or if you haven't yet, you'll eventually get to that place.

I care about hearts, not works, which include actions/words/thoughts. Hearts are all about emotions and emotional beliefs, not thoughts and logic, and trying your best to be right all the time. My heart reflects God's heart for you, myself, and others, in that I don't give a rip how you treat me: I Love you anyway. I just don't allow the hurtful actions of others to hurt me emotionally. Jesus wept. I've wept. But these are all past-tense. We weep, then realize it did us no good to weep, save for expressing our emotions, then get over ourselves, and stand on our own two feet and let them take us where they will. That is our right as Free Children of God. May it always be So.

I don't need for you to impress me in order to keep me here to stand by you, nor have I any desire to impress you or even to impress God, as if I ever could or should ever need to. I don't and never will. That's God's job, to be Content with Himself and to Impress you. I leave it to Him to do that. I can only be here for you as best as I know how as the Spirit Leads me. I can do no other.

[Woody]

Charis ... We love you ... We hurt for you. All we can do is to mirror what God would do which is to love you and to hurt when you hurt. He is shedding a tear and so are we.

I am so sorry for your hurt.

[Guest charis]

Thank you, Redwood..

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Charis, there is an apology I owe you that I was unaware of until last night. You had every right to come here and complain about the issues you complained about - in the sense that there is a difference between Mature Christians, and the standards that we as MCs ought to be holding ourselves a bit more accountable to. Anyway, a difference between MCs and Immature Christians, who are Newbies, and who we can't expect much of at the moment. I'm personally so accustomed to dealing with ICs that when I ready your post, I thought you were expecting ICs to act like MCs. God has worked hard to clarify this issue with me in the last day or two, that this is not what you were doing. He did Lead me to post the things I posted, but they were not for you, and I'm sorry I directed them at you. They were admonishments for other ACs who expect ICs to act like ACs. I myself am far from perfect, and will never be God-like in every way, and I apologize for directing what I wrote at you.

As I re-consider your post, you sound to me like a Mature Christian who has simply had enough of other MCs acting like ICs. I can't agree more, on that one. Yet even then, we all have to cut each other some slack, I think, because again, none of us are God. But I do think that accountability, to some degree, is important. I think it's when we can't admit our mistakes, to ourselves or others, when we can't expect anything more out of ourselves than IC behavior, that well, we're simply still ICs, and are still drinking milk rather than eating the "meat" of the Word. And sometimes, we ACs are still learning how to be ACs. I would say that I'm in that camp. I've been taught enough about how to Grow Up that I at least know how to be an AC, most of the time, but I do sometimes revert back to my ICness. I recently told some friends that I feel like I've graduated from Spiritual High School, and am now on the more "Collegiate" level. I'm suspecting now that I was dead-on in that self-assessment. And it seems that my lesson most recently has been in learning the difference between what can be expected of ICs vs. ACs. And now I'm struggling with learning about what to do with it when ACs just act like ICs.

So yes, let's talk about honesty, trust, and all the rest. I think it's a good discussion to have, when placed in the proper context. I would never expect a Newbie to the Spiritual Life to be totally honest, to be trustworthy, or anything else. But I do now realized that there has to be some accountability amongst us ACs for our own misconduct when it happens. I do also believe in forgiveness though, not in people walking away from each other, unless other things, such as good communication and question-asking have been tried first, and it becomes truly necessary.

I apologize for my own zealous misconduct towards you. It was not harmfully intended towards you, but it obviously did come out that way. Thank you for pointing out my assumptions about you, and for letting God point out what I couldn't see for myself.

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Hey, RW pointed out to me in a PM that it's difficult to follow my IC & MC/AC thing. So, here's the key for that:

IC = Immature Christian. This is a Newbie. Someone who not only doesn't understand much of anything, but doesn't even realize that they don't and has no interest in learning - yet.

MC/AC = Mature/Adult Christian. This is a Seasoned Christian who is Aware of the Spirit, who is Guided and Led by the Spirit, who still stumbles but who knows enough about Salvation, as well as their own personal responsibility towards others, that they can no longer expect to always be treated right, even by other MCs and certainly not by ICs.

There is indeed a Christian Growth process, but really, until you know that you are an MC, even a new MC such as myself, you usually don't even realize that you've been an IC before that. And you have a difficult time seeing all your past failings, and the Love that's been shown you by MCs who you hurt as you Grew, until you become an MC yourself and you start being Given ICs and other MCs to work with on a Mature Christian level.

[Clio]

And expecting to find mostly MCs in the AC while the remodeling is going on leads one to how well UC....

IC... said the blind man...

LOL

Sorry... couldn't resist!

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Heh. It's ok I asked for it

[LifeHiscost]

**snort**

I shall not soon forget the gift of a rose.

"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." Isaiah 55:11 KJV

Blessings!!LHC

[D. Allan]

Quote:

I shall not soon forget the gift of a rose.

never look under the pedals of a gift-rose. they are always precious and too rare. its been a long time since i recieved a rose. that was when i joined my new church back in Ohio. :-)

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

D., I never accept sticks of thorns. I'd rather that the thorns be removed first. However, I try not to treat people the same way. I still make mistakes in that area though, and freely admit to that.

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Perhaps it's not mine to ask, and no, I'm not trying to change the subject, excepting to change it back to the original topic, but I do think that Charis posed some valid questions, in the context of Mature Christians who have been Spiritually Led for long enough that they can and ought to be held accountable and take personal responsibility for their behavior.

Could we get back to that discussion as a more general thing? I realize that we're sort of "on topic" here, because I was wrong in an assumption I made about Charis and have apologized and been duely chastised for it, but I feel like we're not staying focused on some of the other issues she posed, nor are we openly discussing them as general issues.

So, let's talk about it all, ok? What do you think should be done when someone in a rightful position of authority all the sudden decides to hide the truth and take advantage of others who have looked up to them for Spiritual/Moral guidance?

[John317]

... What do you think should be done when someone in a rightful position of authority all the sudden decides to hide the truth and take advantage of others who have looked up to them for Spiritual/Moral guidance?

I think the first thing is to make sure we have the true facts in the case and are not basing our views on hear-say or on rumors. Do the person a favor by going to them in person and getting their viewpoint directly rather than depending on a third party who may have an axe to grind.

If it is a church related matter, we should follow Christ's instructions and also go by the example of Paul in 1 & 2 Corinthians.