aldona Posted July 16, 2007 Posted July 16, 2007 A letter to the editor from today's newspaper... Quote: Let's support the reintroduction of the Latin Mass. Religion is much stronger when nobody knows what they are talking about.Allen Conduit, Berwick comments, anyone?? Quote www.asrc.org.au (Asylum Seeker Resource Centre, Melbourne)Helping over 2000 refugees & asylum seekers each monthIMSLP/Petrucci Music LibraryThe Public Domain Music Score Library - Free Sheet Music DownloadsLooking for classical sheet music? Try IMSLP first!
Planey Posted July 16, 2007 Posted July 16, 2007 I am currently reading "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. He would totally endorse this statement, and in his book offers plenty of factual anecdotes which offer support to this view. In fact just reading any days newspaper would enable you to find corroborating data. Graeme Quote Graeme____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
aldona Posted July 16, 2007 Author Posted July 16, 2007 ...sigh The more I see happening around me in the world of religion, and the more I work on becoming genuinely spiritual, the more disillusioned I become with religion... ...starting to think that to really find God and have an authentic experience of God it is necessary to let go of all organized religion. aldona Quote www.asrc.org.au (Asylum Seeker Resource Centre, Melbourne)Helping over 2000 refugees & asylum seekers each monthIMSLP/Petrucci Music LibraryThe Public Domain Music Score Library - Free Sheet Music DownloadsLooking for classical sheet music? Try IMSLP first!
Woody Posted July 16, 2007 Posted July 16, 2007 A letter to the editor from today's newspaper... Quote: Let's support the reintroduction of the Latin Mass. Religion is much stronger when nobody knows what they are talking about.Allen Conduit, Berwick comments, anyone?? I tend to agree with this statement but then my wife would be without a job. And I do believe she is doing a great job. And you see ... she does not know Latin. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
D. Allan Posted July 16, 2007 Posted July 16, 2007 ...sigh The more I see happening around me in the world of religion, and the more I work on becoming genuinely spiritual, the more disillusioned I become with religion... ...starting to think that to really find God and have an authentic experience of God it is necessary to let go of all organized religion. aldona It seems that way to me also. Organized religion sometimes is a help to beginners on the path, sometimes a hindrance. If all our services were in Latin we might get more out them. Instead of religion being a matter of the intellect, of ideas accepted from authority, it would be more a matter of the heart, and flow from within oneself. Its the only way it can be genuine. Quote dAb O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!
Moderators John317 Posted July 17, 2007 Moderators Posted July 17, 2007 Originally Posted By: aldona ...sigh The more I see happening around me in the world of religion, and the more I work on becoming genuinely spiritual, the more disillusioned I become with religion... ...starting to think that to really find God and have an authentic experience of God it is necessary to let go of all organized religion. aldona It seems that way to me also. Organized religion sometimes is a help to beginners on the path, sometimes a hindrance. I agree with you about organized religion. There's no substitute for personal faith or 'personal religion.' If it is not something we are personally convicted of and personally committed to, then we are just going through the motions. Organized religion is most helpful in supplying the resources for study and for finding places of worship, but they can't take the place of personal commitment to God and to Christ. Quote: If all our services were in Latin we might get more out them. Instead of religion being a matter of the intellect, of ideas accepted from authority, it would be more a matter of the heart, and flow from within oneself. Its the only way it can be genuine. I think that our worship must be based on both the intellect and "the heart." Our heart must be informed by the intellect. If our worship is not based on the truth-- propositional truths, such as those spoken by Christ and those written by Paul-- then worship becomes completely subjective and thus is anything anyone wants it to be. The Bible, the Word of God, has to be the standard. Otherwise the standard becomes our own heart, and that will be the object of our worship. If our religion does not flow from God's special revelation--Christ and the Scriptures-- our religion may be very sincere but it will also be very wrong. In my thinking, there is no reason why true religion cannot flow both from God's special revelation and from within. In fact, I believe the Bible teaches that is exactly what God wants. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
D. Allan Posted July 17, 2007 Posted July 17, 2007 The intellect leads man to commit all kinds of atrocities. All kinds of physical, mental and spiritual abuse can easily be justified by the so-called "intellect". Mere intellectual useage of sacred scriptures justifies the same abuses in the hearts of those who commit them. Crusades, the inquisition, burning people at the stake who do adopt the same dogma ... It is just so great to be on a forum where the administration supports people of all persuasions and allows them all the dignity and the freedom to have their own religious convictions without being called wrong. And there are so many nice people here. Good Christian Fellowship to me is more spiritual than just having correct intellectual religious opinions. Quote dAb O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!
Moderators John317 Posted July 17, 2007 Moderators Posted July 17, 2007 The intellect leads man to commit all kinds of atrocities. All kinds of physical, mental and spiritual abuse can easily be justified by the so-called "intellect". Mere intellectual useage of sacred scriptures justifies the same abuses in the hearts of those who commit them. Crusades, the inquisition, burning people at the stake who do adopt the same dogma ... I totally agree that the intellect has led to many kinds of atrocities, but you have to admit, I think, that the heart when not informed by the intellect often leads to atrocities. The atrocities you speak of, for instance the Crusades and the iniquisition, would not have taken place if Christians had taken proper account of God's word. It's impossible to defend those horrible things on the basis of the New Testament. No doubt some used the Old Testament books of Joshua and Judges as a defense of what they were doing, but a proper account of the Bible could not make that argument. Those things were directly contrary to the life and teachings of Christ. So what I am saying, then, is that it is the improper use of the intellect that led people to do those things and not the use of the intellect per se. It is also the intellect that leads us today to roundly condemn those things. Quote: It is just so great to be on a forum where the administration supports people of all persuasions and allows them all the dignity and the freedom to have their own religious convictions without being called wrong. And there are so many nice people here. Good Christian Fellowship to me is more spiritual than just having correct intellectual religious opinions. Everyone has the right to believe what he wants, of course. Everyone-- including those who don't agree with you and me-- have their right to say anyone else's opinion or belief is wrong (provided of course that it's done in a civil manner and not holding someone up to ridicule). But at the same time, once we say something is wrong, we should be able to give a reason for our belief. I agree completely that good Christian fellowship is about much more than merely having correct doctrines or theology. It is about loving each person no matter what they believe, whether they are liberal or conservative and any shade in between; a commitment to treating every person with respect and thoughtfulness, and seeking their best good, irresepctive of their theology or religion. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted July 17, 2007 Moderators Posted July 17, 2007 A letter to the editor from today's newspaper... Quote: Let's support the reintroduction of the Latin Mass. Religion is much stronger when nobody knows what they are talking about.Allen Conduit, Berwick comments, anyone?? This goes directly contrary to protestantism, which historically has put the Bible and the exposition of God's Word at the very center of worship. However, it agrees with the Catholic Mass, which until Vatican II was performed in Latin, a language only the professional clergy understood. The question is, what kind of "religion" is stronger? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
David Koot Posted July 17, 2007 Posted July 17, 2007 The intellect leads man to commit all kinds of atrocities. All kinds of physical, mental and spiritual abuse can easily be justified by the so-called "intellect". Mere intellectual useage of sacred scriptures justifies the same abuses in the hearts of those who commit them. Crusades, the inquisition, burning people at the stake who do adopt the same dogma My dear Dallan, It is not the 'intellect' that is the problem with such things. The intellect is simply the 'computer' part of the brain, if you please. It is the human heart that is the cause of all these atrocities. The heart drives the intellect, and leads to criminal actions. It is the heart that must be purified. If it is, then the heart will instruct the intellect in a right direction. Dave Quote
D. Allan Posted July 17, 2007 Posted July 17, 2007 Quote: quoting John3:17: "So what I am saying, then, is that it is the improper use of the intellect that led people to do those things and not the use of the intellect per se. It is also the intellect that leads us today to roundly condemn those things." Quote: quoting Monsieur Koot: My dear Dallan, It is not the 'intellect' that is the problem with such things. The intellect is simply the 'computer' part of the brain, if you please. It is the human heart that is the cause of all these atrocities. The heart drives the intellect, and leads to criminal actions. It is the heart that must be purified. If it is, then the heart will instruct the intellect in a right direction. My dear Dkoot, What must we then conclude from what we observe of the conduct and conversation of 'religious' people who constantly claim to be guided by the intellect? They must be unaware that their unreformed hearts are informing their misquided intellect! Poor souls, but I feel more sympathy for those who suffer under their 'ministrations.' Mais non? Quote dAb O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!
D. Allan Posted July 17, 2007 Posted July 17, 2007 Another quick thought surfaces. Since it is the heart that must be reformed as you'uns contend and not the intellect, then it must be that the intellect is not to be trusted since it is under the control of the heart. C'est vrai? Mai oui!! Quote dAb O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!
David Koot Posted July 17, 2007 Posted July 17, 2007 My dear Dkoot, Ach! But THAT as not yet been officially coined as a word!!! Whereas, 'dallan' has. Remembering that a 'dallan' is one who, like D.Allan, is a keeper of the flame of literacy and practices the ethical teachings of the dalai lama--THAT being the denoted meaning of the word. So then . . . one must use proper grammar and recognized words, no? Quote
David Koot Posted July 17, 2007 Posted July 17, 2007 They must be unaware that their unreformed hearts are informing their misquided intellect! Quote
Guest charis Posted July 17, 2007 Posted July 17, 2007 John317 said: Quote: the Catholic Mass, which until Vatican II was performed in Latin, a language only the professional clergy understood. My aunt knows Latin. She is not professional clergy. She's not even Catholic. Quote
Woody Posted July 17, 2007 Posted July 17, 2007 Quote: This goes directly contrary to protestantism, which historically has put the Bible and the exposition of God's Word at the very center of worship. This would be fine except that some polute the teachings of the Bible and it becomes abusive rather than being the "center". Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
David Koot Posted July 17, 2007 Posted July 17, 2007 Since it is the heart that must be reformed as you'uns contend and not the intellect, then it must be that the intellect is not to be trusted since it is under the control of the heart. And you no doubt are pleased with such an idea! But au contraire, monsieur, the intellect should be safeguarded. One might do well to recognize the deceitful activities of the heart. Hence the need for intellectual rigor! Ja wohl! Dave Quote
D. Allan Posted July 18, 2007 Posted July 18, 2007 Originally Posted By: D. Allan My dear Dkoot, Ach! But THAT as not yet been officially coined as a word!!! Whereas, 'dallan' has. Remembering that a 'dallan' is one who, like D.Allan, is a keeper of the flame of literacy and practices the ethical teachings of the dalai lama--THAT being the denoted meaning of the word. So then . . . one must use proper grammar and recognized words, no? Oui, oui, vous avez raison, Monsieur le duc de la Koot. Quote dAb O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!
D. Allan Posted July 18, 2007 Posted July 18, 2007 Quote: And you no doubt are pleased with such an idea! Absolument, je suis tres content!! Well the intellect can operate without the heart, of course. Two plus two equals four without the consent or/and contribution of the heart. One can use the intellect to determine what is to one's best advantage, (which may be at the expense of others.) But when it comes to putting into practice moral and ethical conduct, there the intellect is of no help - a good heart is needed. A new heart, a heart of flesh and not of stone, as I have read someplace. That is why I say the intellect cannot be trusted. If the heart is not right. If the heart is right then the intellect is at the service of the heart - thus being subservient to it. Non? Otherwise if the heart is bad, it uses the intellect to concoct all sorts of rationalizations, whereby a person decieves his/herself. The intellect is a mere tool, as you say, like a computer. A tool of the heart. d'accord? Quote dAb O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!
David Koot Posted July 18, 2007 Posted July 18, 2007 d'accord? Oui! Franchement! Définitivement! Quote
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